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Pokemon Upgrade: Necrozma and High 3-A

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I'm unsure about AP at the moment, but I'll comment on the speed section.

While, I do agree the individual universes contain infinite amounts of 3-D Space, I find the justification to be vague. Just because there's an infinite number of wormholes, I don't think that means the nearest wormhole is located an infinite number of lightyears away from Earth. Not to mention, I commented on this before, it's arbitrary to just assume that wormholes that connect to the next universes are located as the edge of the universe by default; especially if they're infinite sized. Also, traversing the universe(s), are we assuming that traveling to the edge of the universe is the method in which they travel to other universes? It's agreed that traveling to other universes is simply Dimensional Travel.

I'll wait for other staff to comment before discussing AP section, but I simply do not think Infinite speed holds up.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm unsure about AP at the moment, but I'll comment on the speed section.

While, I do agree the individual universes contain infinite amounts of 3-D Space, I find the justification to be vague. Just because there's an infinite number of wormholes, I don't think that means the nearest wormhole is located an infinite number of lightyears away from Earth. Not to mention, I commented on this before, it's arbitrary to just assume that wormholes that connect to the next universes are located as the edge of the universe by default; especially if they're infinite sized. Also, traversing the universe(s), are we assuming that traveling to the edge of the universe is the method in which they travel to other universes? It's agreed that traveling to other universes is simply Dimensional Travel.

I'll wait for other staff to comment before discussing AP section, but I simply do not think Infinite speed holds up.
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I think your misunderstanding the argument for infinite speed Dark.

We aren’t saying Necrozmas light would be infinite in speed just for reaching ultra wormholes.

The argument for it is that the speed would be infinite because Necrozmas’s light traversed and filled the entirety of Ultra Space when illuminating it. Ultra Space would now be considered an infinite realm with the Multiverse being 2-A (Likely 2-A but you get the point) so Necrozmas light would be enveloping an infinite realm.

His light reaching other ultra wormholes is a supporting feat. But also as Strym said, the speed feat for this would be coming from reaching all of the infinite ultra wormholes that lead into these universes, not the universes themselves.
 
i don't really get how the universe itself is infinite. It only illuminates 1 universe right? or am i just dumb
 
I'm not taking a side yet, but I remember that lighting something infine in size isn't enough to grant infinite speed for a reason I don't know.
I mostly remember that the God of War cast used to have infinite speed after Helios being able to illuminate the entire underworld, which is infinite in size, and use said light to attack. But then it was downgraded to MFTL+, with the feat still used, though.
 
Tho, the link for the feat is this one, is more a proof about taking the light of starts for a time worth of the whole remaining lifespan instead of just an arbitrary second.

 
SamanPatou said:
I'm not taking a side yet, but I remember that lighting something infine in size isn't enough to grant infinite speed for a reason I don't know.
I mostly remember that the God of War cast used to have infinite speed after Helios being able to illuminate the entire underworld, which is infinite in size, and use said light to attack. But then it was downgraded to MFTL+, with the feat still used, though.
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I countered with this already
StrymULTRA said:
To debunk that being just 2-B/2-A range and to support the whole "Necrozma's light attacks = Necrozma's light speed", it can use the energy it absorbs to attacks as lasers, as confirmed also here, aka as the light which travels through the Ultra Space can perfectly be redirected as attacks. Not to say that the Ultra Beasts can travel through the Ultra Space with no actual limit, and is pretty much implied that they can access to any Ultra Wormhole, otherwise Giovanni's goal wouldn't make sense.
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Plus this one
StrymULTRA said:
That's not vague if is already told in the tutorial tho.

Also, the Ultra Space is in anime as well.
Click to expand...
 
SamanPatou said:
I'm not taking a side yet, but I remember that lighting something infine in size isn't enough to grant infinite speed for a reason I don't know.
I mostly remember that the God of War cast used to have infinite speed after Helios being able to illuminate the entire underworld, which is infinite in size, and use said light to attack. But then it was downgraded to MFTL+, with the feat still used, though.
Click to expand...
Wasn't this because no one was comfortable with Infinite speed Kratos? I remember reading the thread where this was brought up and it was sorta just dismissed as an outlier for some reason.
 
I meant that the act itself of illuminating something infinite in size apparently doesn't grant you infinite speed, for a reason I don't know (probably someone knowledgeable in math and such knows it).

Also, I'm personally rather iffy with giving infinite speed to so many characters (given the scaling chain), as even them are usually portraied as moving and having a speed like that of "normal beings", despite them being clearly very fast (I don't know how to explain this). I know mine isn't really an argument or a debunk, count me as neutral if needed, because I disagree but I don't have solid arguments to put on the table.
 
Planck69 said:
Wasn't this because no one was comfortable with Infinite speed Kratos? I remember reading the thread where this was brought up and it was sorta just dismissed as an outlier for some reason.
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I don't know, I don't remember the thread, but perhaps this is a similar instance, since the feat is the same.
 
I'd put to Solgaleo, Lunaala and UC profiles this speed rating:

"Massively FTL+ (Can cross countless lightyears in seconds in order to reach other Ultra Wormholes; Should be superior to other Ultra Beasts, some whose homeworlds are 1,432 to 3,545 lightyears away from Alola and travelled those distances in seconds), likely Infinite (Can cross through the entirely of the Ultra Space, a dimension that contains said Ultra Wormholes, which are likely infinite in total)

To avoid misconceptions and such.
 
SamanPatou said:
I'm not taking a side yet, but I remember that lighting something infine in size isn't enough to grant infinite speed for a reason I don't know.
I mostly remember that the God of War cast used to have infinite speed after Helios being able to illuminate the entire underworld, which is infinite in size, and use said light to attack. But then it was downgraded to MFTL+, with the feat still used, though.
Click to expand...
I know "whataboutism" isn't an argument and I don't know GoW so I can't comment on what the context surrounding their feat may be.

But I honestly don't understand why that wouldn't be infinite in speed when it fits the current requirements for the standard. Both for them and in this case for Necrozma. And for the latter's case, this light is used and incorporated into Necrozma's every light-based attacks which can be reacted to.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I'd put to Solgaleo, Lunaala and UC profiles this speed rating:

"Massively FTL+ (Can cross countless lightyears in seconds in order to reach other Ultra Wormholes; Should be superior to other Ultra Beasts, some whose homeworlds are 1,432 to 3,545 lightyears away from Alola and travelled those distances in seconds), likely Infinite (Can cross through the entirely of the Ultra Space, a dimension that contains said Ultra Wormholes, which are likely infinite in total)

To avoid misconceptions and such.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what the upgrade is proposing already though.

Again, no one here would be getting outright infinite from this. "Likely" is the absolute best the upgrades would be getting. For both the AP and the speed.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I know "whataboutism" isn't an argument and I don't know GoW so I can't comment on what the context surrounding their feat may be.

But I honestly don't understand why that wouldn't be infinite in speed when it fits the current requirements for the standard. Both for them and in this case for Necrozma. And for the latter's case, this light is used and incorporated into Necrozma's every light-based attacks which can be reacted to.
Click to expand...
What's funny is that both Kratos and these Pokemon react to the light. Honestly, this feels like more that GoW might be due an update than a point against this.
 
Planck69 said:
What's funny is that both Kratos and these Pokemon react to the light. Honestly, this feels like more that GoW might be due an update than a point against this.
Click to expand...
Thats the idea im getting from this too. Like I said, I don't know God of War or the context of their situation, so I can't really comment about them and I don't want this thread turning into a "diff verse gets this and that" thread.

But unless the feat for God of War is an outlier or something for their characters, it just seems like the rating for them was denied for insufficient reasons and it should be looked at again.
 
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Planck69 said:
Wasn't this because no one was comfortable with Infinite speed Kratos? I remember reading the thread where this was brought up and it was sorta just dismissed as an outlier for some reason.
Click to expand...
I was going to make a upgrade CRT for that with Obi2cool4kenobi......but exams are a bitch......so next month.😤
 
Current Vote count:

Agree: 15 (Mozzada, Lou_Change, Arceus0x, Theultimate, GiverTheProtoAngel, Greenshifter, Rikimarox2, Psychomaster35, Garchomp777, Crimson_Shadow101, GlaceonGamez471, StrymULTRA, Planck69, Waka1979, ArchangelSiege)

Disagree:

Neutral: 4 (SamanPatou, DarkDragonMedus, NeoZex6399, The_real_cal_howard) though Cal said he didn't care so....unsure if vote counts or not but listing his anyway as neutral.
 
Ugh...Another high tier thing I'm being called over for despite my standing as a low-tier debater.

Whatever. Looking over things, it seems to make sense. I'll just agree and go on with my day now.

I really wish I had finished Ultra Sun and Moon so I had more of a stake in this debate...
 
SamanPatou said:
Also, I'm personally rather iffy with giving infinite speed to so many characters (given the scaling chain), as even them are usually portraied as moving and having a speed like that of "normal beings", despite them being clearly very fast (I don't know how to explain this).
Click to expand...
To respond to this part btw, this isn't 100% true actually. If Mega Mewtwo Y is anything to go off as support for this, we do see his speed being portrayed as rather ridiculously fast in the Genesect movie with the whole "time stops as Mewtwo moves" depiction whenever he moves in battle with Genesect. So it's not like this has never been a thing in the first place.

And of course, I fully understand and get why you see this as iffy. And that's exactly why this rating isn't getting anything beyond a "likely" for these guys.
 
Starter_Pack said:
Ugh...Another high tier thing I'm being called over for despite my standing as a low-tier debater.

Whatever. Looking over things, it seems to make sense. I'll just agree and go on with my day now.

I really wish I had finished Ultra Sun and Moon so I had more of a stake in this debate...
Click to expand...
You must finish it!
 
Current Vote count:

Agree: 17 (ZoroNotZolo, Starter_Pack, Mozzada, Lou_Change, Arceus0x, Theultimate, GiverTheProtoAngel, Greenshifter, Rikimarox2, Psychomaster35, Garchomp777, Crimson_Shadow101, GlaceonGamez471, StrymULTRA, Planck69, Waka1979, ArchangelSiege)

Disagree:

Neutral: 4 (SamanPatou, DarkDragonMedus, NeoZex6399, The_real_cal_howard) though Cal said he didn't care so....unsure if vote counts or not but listing his anyway as neutral.
 
Oh yeah, shouldn't this also apply to shadow mewtwo? Base obviously scales to it's own feat but mega shadow mewtwo x should be comparable to, if not outright superior, to normal mega mewtwo.
 
Also, something I noticed. Aside from Pikachu's Z-Move, why isn't Ash scaling to these upgrades?

He owns a Melmetal, and canonically had a Naganadel on his team in SuMo. Both of which scale to these upgrades.
 
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Just wanted to point that out. I mean IDK if Ash'es page is just outdated or if his page has some unspoken reason for why he doesn't have these legendaries listed for him under his owned Pokemon.

If it's the former, then he should be given the upgrades via having those mons.
 
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