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Pokemon Types Revisions REDUX

My two cents on one particular issue, I do agree with the Dragon's specification of Psychic type moves being labelled as Telepathy or Energy Projection. A perfect out-of-verse example of how a seemingly typical Psychic-type Pokemon would act would be Shigeo Kageyama from Mob Psycho 100. He's a very talented psychic, but he never utilizes it for Telepathy or Mind Manipulation, which is technically a trait of psychics. However, he's very masterful at Telekinesis, or basically throwing his opponents all over the place, which is a trait of some of the most powerful Psychic attacks in Pokemon, like Psychic itself. And that's not counting the fact that a lot of psychics in the Mob Psycho universe basically only use Telekinesis or some kind of Energy Projection in their fights.

So, yeah, I'm absolutely behind changing the definition of Psychic types to these.
 
Ignoring the unpleasnt parts, most of that doesn't really change a thing.

For Psybeam, "It Can" just means it has the chance to, it doesn't mean there isn't anything mind haxy about it whatsoever. It is, just with a low success rate. And furthermore, the damage from the psychic attack has nothing to do with the mental effect of the beam. One is power and the other is hax, they are un-related. Someone can resist a psychic attacks damage without being able to resist having their mind effected, so "dark types resisting the damage" is 100% irrelevant. You don't have to damage someone first to effect their mind.

For Confusion, yes this is a telekinetic attack but "being tossed around" still doesn't mean it isn't mind haxing. In fact, I have a serious problem with "being tossed around to cause confusion via vertigo". Why? ALL pokemon moves that cause damage do this. An opponent getting sent flying from a powerful attack in general gets "tossed around" and not once do they get confused unless the move in question is stated to cause it. Pikachu sending Team Rocket flying with its attacks in literally every anime episode is a great example of this. Yet when Psychic moves come up, its suddenly only vertigo? That 1000% makes no sense at all. It would have to mean something more for Psychic Type moves. Otherwise, this vertigo crap would have to apply to literally any move with force great enough to "toss" an opponent around and we know this is obviously false. Plus, telekinetic moves in Pokemon aren't always just, well, telekinesis. They can be used as acutal pure psychic energy too. For example, May's Beautifly can use Psychic and it uses it as a pure psychic beam instead of telekinesis (i'll grab scans for this in a minute).

EDIT: Scratch the last part.
 
Also, I don't know if this is relevant at all, but there was an instance when Misty's Psyduck was able to use Confusion against a Poochyena. But, anime is typically inconsistent for Ash's Pikachu reasons, so take this with a grain of salt.

Proof.
 
For Psybeam, "It Can" just means it has the chance to, it doesn't mean there isn't anything mind haxy about it whatsoever. It is, just with a low effect rate. And furthermore, the damage from the psychic attack has nothing to do with the mental effect of the beam. One is power and the other is hax, they are un-related. Someone can resist a psychic attacks damage without being able to resist having their mind effected, so "dark types resisting the damage" is 100% irrelevant. You don't have to damage someone first to effect their mind. "

Actually that does matter. It not being 100% and based upon attacking the mind. At most the resistance would be so weak than any normal mind haxor bypasses it. And nothing even states it attacks the mind. And in this case you do. This is shown directly with execution and mechanices. In this case, yes, damage has to be done. Mind hax has different ways to activate and different triggers. It's not all "I attacked your mind directly"

"or Confusion, yes this is a telekinetic attack but "being tossed around" still doesn't mean it isn't mind haxing. In fact, I have a serious problem with "being tossed around to cause confusion via vertigo". Why? "

I can ask the same question as to why Dynamic Punch causes confusion. Suddenly Confusion is not so special anymore.

"Yet when Psychic moves come up, its suddenly only vertigo? That 1000% makes no sense at all. "

Oh now Psychic types are the victims when you guys wank the shit out of it? Cry me a ******* river. You know damn well that causing confusion is nothing unique to Psychic types. However, now you decide that suddenly damage and getting hit doesn't cause confusion, but it's "muh mindhax". It's disgusting. Telekinetic moves can be other things such as telekinesis. I even mentioned that.

"Also, why is it that only damage-based moves are being discussed here? If its in that case, then maybe Psybeam and Confusion would fit as the "only 2", otherwise that is not true. I'll direct everyone to, lets say, Teeter Dance? Which is a psychic move that definitely causes confusion?"

Teeter Dance is not Psychic. It's normal.
 
Starter Pack said:
Also, I don't know if this is relevant at all, but there was an instance when Misty's Psyduck was able to use Confusion against a Poochyena. But, anime is typically inconsistent for Ash's Pikachu reasons, so take this with a grain of salt.
Proof.
Click to expand...
Let me guess.

"PIS, inconsistency."
 
PaChi2 said:
Why not treat confusion as a status inducement effect?
Click to expand...
Because, confusion comes from...well your mind being confused.
 
Because, confusion comes from...well your mind being confused.

Welp, its just it happens to come with the weirdest stuff like a punch (dizzy punch), post outrage, ...
 
If the resistance is weak, then so be it but that still doesn't change the fact that it's the psychic energy itself that has the effects of mind hax. Look at what happened with Zoey's Glameow. It was hardly damaged by Mismageous's psybeam, even resisting it, and a second later it's confused. If it was based off damaging the opponent, this wouldnt have happened.

The mind effects are in the energy itself. Resist the energy and you resist the mind hax. Psychic energy not effecting dark types means the mind part wouldnt also work. It'd be resistance.

Dynamic Punch is a false equivalancy because you smack the opponent dead on with a punch attack, Kind of like how a boxer punches someone and they black out for a second.

Excuse me? I know your upset Dragon, but don't pull out a bunch of A.H.'s. You don't see any one else doing it and it's not going to make your side any better than the other. And yes I decided that because I have actual reasons for it.
 
Rock Climb, Dizzy Punch, Dynamic Punch and Secret Power. Such oddities.
 
"If the resistance is weak, then so be it but that still doesn't change the fact that it's the psychic energy itself that has the effects of mind hax. Look at what happened with Zoey's Glameow. It was hardly damaged by Mismageous's psybeam, even resisting it, and a second later it's confused. If it was based off damaging the opponent, this wouldnt have happened. "

Hardly damaged is still being damaged. And now let me guess. Fighting Energy effects the mind as well. So does this mysterious bug energy? Psychic Energy? We have an energy for everything now. The fact that it is something that is not even 100% shows that it is damage based. If it wasn't, then regardless of how much damage was taken, the confusion would be 100% efficient.

"The mind effects are in the energy itself. Resist the energy and you resist the mind hax. Psychic energy not effecting dark types means the mind part wouldnt also work. It'd be resistance."

Umm no seeing as this "energy" also does damage. The mind powers come from being damaged. This is blatantly shown by how it works.

"Dynamic Punch is a false equivalancy because you smack the opponent dead on with a punch attack, Kind of like how a boxer punches someone and they black out for a second. "

No it's not. In Psybeam and Confusion's case you are literally being hit with a burst of energy. I guess now every punch and burst of Psychic energy is mind hax because "HEY! It causes confusion"

"Excuse me? I know your upset Dragon, but don't pull out a bunch of A.H.'s. You don't see any one else doing it and it's not going to make your side any better than the other. And yes I decided that because I have actual reasons for it. "

You are very much excused because you are seeing all my frustration when debating with you each time Pokemon is involved. Except my side has gone by what has been told in the series as well as what has been shown. We have seen Dark Types affected by Mind based attacks. We have seen other attacks that do damage and cause confusion. We have seen non damaging and non Psychic attacks cause confusion. We have directly mentioned the mechanics behind Confusion and Psybeam. A mind based attack doesn't just mind hax on a chance. The simple fact that it's not 100% shows that the damage is what causes it. Otherwise, it would be 100% confusion. And in fact, all you've done is shown that other attacks are just as able to cause confusion.

Either way, I am leaving this thread as I am wasting my breath here.
 
I'm pretty sure the thread has been over several posts ago (At least due to the amount of people who agree on one side)
 
So, don't hate me for this, but I do believe that Flying types do happen to have their own aura upon attacking, just like the other arguments being made for Bug or Fighting. I'm not saying what kind of energy, and that it should fall into a particular category, but hear me out.

A good example of my main problem with the utter deletion of Flying types as anything more than a Pokemon punching another in the face is Brave Bird. The description for the move is as follows:

"The user tucks in its wings and charges from a low altitude. This also damages the user quite a lot."

Which, granted, does make it seem like nothing. But, if that's the case, then what's happening to all of the Pokemon who use Brave Bird in the anime, throughout multiple generations mind you? And this same thing happens with other moves such as Sky Attack, Aerial Ace, and even Peck.

What does this mean? What ability am I saying should be given to Flying types in this way? To be honest, I'm not sure. Just like with the confusion with Bug types and how they're special, I'm pretty sure Flying types have some kind of special attribute that allows them to be super-effective against certain other types of Pokemon, such as Bug or Grass. (i.e., requiring wings, a beak-like protuberance or some capability of flight.) The rest of the arguments about the special moves being classified as Air Manipulation is fine. But there's just too much with physical Flying type moves, especially considering moves like Brave Bird, to just brush them off as absolutely nothing.
 
Need I mention the ones who agreed with me last thread.

The ones who are no longer here: Kepe and Blue

The other ones: Woki, Crimson, PaChi, Azzy (based on how he was joking), Cal (minus Psychic) and Andy.

+The two kudos here: Justice and Tony.

+The six kudos from the last one: Reppu, Shadow, Emin, Js, C2 and The God of Procrastination.
 
To be fair, Secret Power only causes confusion when Psychic Terrain is in effect according to this page.

Anyway,

It would still be hardly and huge empathis on it since Glameow didn't look effected at all other than by the confusion aspect of it. And the damage aspect of mind attack still doesn't mean its effect on the opponents mind is the same thing anyway. And for "fighting energy", considering we have moves like Meditate and Focus Punch, yes it effects the mind (only the users tho). And for it not always beings 100%, maybe thats because that is game mechanics as well? Always inducing confusion for damaging moves would be pretty OP in-game, but I know this won't sit well so I won't go more into it.

Considering Glameow got confused because of the psychic energy surrounding it like an aura, i'd say no it isnt. Damaging someone with psychic energy and actually haxing them with it are still 2 different things.

Yes but the different is that psychic energy has mind haxing effects. A strong punch the face just blacks you out for some time. But considering how some verses can do this via the latter, I wouldn't be surprised if it was mind hax as well.

At this point, its agree to disagree between you and me. But if everyone else agrees with you then there's nothing else to say about this.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Secret Power Effects.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Secret_Power_(move)
Click to expand...
No it says the attack animation is the confusion one. The Psychic Terrain causes speed reduction.
Click to expand...
Huh? The only reference I can see to this move actually confusing is in Gen III, when it confuses when the move is used on a rocky surface. In Gen VII, during Psychic Terrain, it says it lowers the opponent's Speed by one level.

Edit: I know you explained the Psychic Terrain part, Dragon. I was just saying both to cover both sides.
 
Just now realizing this, there's another question I have for this.

For the total generalization of Psychic Typing, how come it's being assumed to only be because of the moves pokemon can learn instead of the pokemon's own natural abilities? For example, if we take the Hypno line, what if their ability to use mind hax in the 1st place is what makes them psychic types instead of just knowing moves under the psychic type? If the moves don't fully define the typing, wouldn't the pokemons own abilities do so?
 
Because Dark Types are resistant to the moves.

They aren't resistant to everything Hypno does
 
I've been typing this message for about a half an hour now, so I'm not sure if the situation lightened. Are we all calm now? Because it's not that big of a deal.

Keep in mind that I never stated that all Psychic- type Pokemon have mind manipulation, nor that all Psychic- type moves are classified as mind manipulation. I said that mind manipulation falls under the large net that is Psychic- type. I'll even admit that there are Pokemon who don't have Hypnosis in their arsenal, prime examples being Aegislash, Tentacruel, and Ninetales. I still can't admit to mind manipulation not falling under the psychic category. No matter how much you emphasize the other attacks, Hypnosis is still a Psychic type move and is the only move that's explicitly offensive mental manipulation. The main mind controlling Pokemon, Hypno and Malamar, are both Psychic- types and naturally learn Hypnosis. Pretty sure it's outright said, if not heavily implied, that Mewtwo's mind powers are due to its psychic type (don't quote me on that). Telepathy is still a thing, which even Human psychics are capable of doing, evidenced with both, Caitlin and Sabrina. Reason it was Gastly is because it was Gen I. Gastly was the only Ghost- type at the time, and Ghost- type was the only type good against Psychic- type at the time. I'm sure if the episode was Johto Journeys instead of Orange Islands, it would've been a Murkrow or a Houndour instead.
 
Well, I stated in my OP that I never argued Mind Manipulation did not fall under Psychic type...I thought I made that clear...

Also, Ash shoulda caught a Houndour....
 
Dragons not saying that mind manipulation doesn't fall under Psychic Type Cal.

He's saying (IIRC) that the entire Psychic Type isn't generalized by mind manipulation mostly.
 
@Cal

My point is more that Dark type Pokemon have not shown resistance to everything that the Psychic type encompasses.

They are resistant to the moves.
 
Also, @Dragon, to what you're saying about Dark- types not being immune to Hypnosis. Kukui's right. It is game mechanics.

Before you go on a tirade, here's why. That's not the only instance. The Pokemon immunities are for attacking moves, not status moves. Sand Attack works on Flying- types, despite Sand Tomb not working. Normal- types can be affected by Nightmare. Ghost- types can be affected by Roar and any other Normal- type status move, such as Screech, Leer, Sing, etc. Steel- types are affected by Gastro Acid. This has been the case since Gen 1.

The literal only status move that respects the type chart is Thunder Wave.
 
But, there is a direct feat of Hypnosis working on Dark Types. Azzy flat out posted a reply about it. Azzy even posted a scan and I posted it above. This is consistent with showings. So this being "Game Mechanics" is objectively false. Also, there is also the fact that these moves are simply exempt from those resistances as well. That seems the most likely. Azzy showed disdain for Flying types resisting ground moves and such as well. Regardless in this case, Hynosis has shown to work on Dark types outside of games. Honestly, going Game Mechanics instead of taking them as exempt from type normalities is pretty dishonest in order to grant a favorable resistance if I may be so blunt.

Especially seeing as this has not changed over the generations. This is more than just Game Mechanics.
 
Honestly, its just a one time thing that can easily be summed up to being an outlier. Unless do we accept Pikachu electrifying ground types?
 
And there's a direct feat of Pikachu aiming for the horn. There's a direct feat of Jigglypuff hurting, not just putting to sleep, a Gengar with Sing, despite Gengar being immune to Uproar, Round, Hyper Voice, etc.

Plus, you're claiming that Psychic- types don't resist the mental assaults of their fellow psychics when blatant logic implies that Hypno'd not be mindraped by the rest of its species the instant they lock eyes.
 
That's not an outlier seeing as it is consistent with the game as well. It is both consistent with the game and portrayal out of game.
 
The real cal howard said:
And there's a direct feat of Pikachu aiming for the horn. There's a direct feat of Jigglypuff hurting, not just putting to sleep, a Gengar with Sing, despite Gengar being immune to Uproar, Round, Hyper Voice, etc.
Plus, you're claiming that Psychic- types don't resist the mental assaults of their fellow psychics when blatant logic implies that Hypno'd not be mindraped by the rest of its species the instant they lock eyes.
Click to expand...
Yes, but none of those feats are consistent with the games. Those are blatant inconsistencies. This is not. It is something that has been consistent with the games and shown directly outside of them. It is extremely consistent compared to this.

Yes I am. Just because you are a mind haxor doesn't mean you can resist Mind hax. You are also assuming I said that specific example cannot be used. Something I never said Cal. And once again, just because I can mind hax =/= I can resist it. That is faulty logic.
 
I fail to find a single instance in fiction in general where a mind manipulator falls prey to that of a mind manipulator of equal potency to them without a mental struggle ensuing.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Shown directly outside of the games once and never again after that. Thats not consistent Dragon.
Click to expand...
Yes it is. Shown outside the games once. That is all that's needed especially when this has been the case in game for 20+ years. There is no denying that. This is a fact. That is the very definition of consistency Kukui.
 
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