Questions about the ability for reducing intelligence to zero(no intelligence,wisdom) and mind manipulation.

[MVMRainAngel]

If a character has the ability to render an opponent unintelligent, could that be considered mind manipulation?
When VSWB defines mind manipulation as
"It is associated with Telepathy and Mind Reading, and these powers are often possessed by the same characters. While basic mind manipulation can be used for psychic suggestion and simple manipulation, higher-level users of this ability can completely control others, drive them insane, plague them with illusions and hallucinations, and even rip their minds from their bodies."

Furthermore, could a character with absolutely no intelligence be mind manipulated?

 

[DenzOnigiri]

If a character has the ability to render an opponent unintelligent, could that be considered mind manipulation?

Depends how the ability works, it could be statistics reduction since it include mental reduction to the intelligence and it could be mind manipulation if there's enough proof.

Furthermore, could a character with absolutely no intelligence be mind manipulated?

No intelligence doesn't mean that the character didn't have mind/consciousness to be manipulate.

 

[MVMRainAngel]

Depends how the ability works, it could be statistics reduction since it include mental reduction to the intelligence and it could be mind manipulation if there's enough proof.

So what conditions are necessary for it to become mind manipulation? And could it be both?

No intelligence doesn't mean that the character didn't have mind/consciousness to be manipulate.

But without intelligence, how can one process and understand data? It's like trying to persuade someone but not understanding the command .If a mind-manipulation technique that alters memories could succeed against someone with zero intelligence, would it be possible?

 

[DenzOnigiri]

So what conditions are necessary for it to become mind manipulation?

It becomes mind manipulation when the ability directly affects the target’s mind, such as their thoughts, cognition, reasoning, awareness, memory, or mental state, rather than just lowering a numerical/statistical value.

And could it be both?

Not sure.

But without intelligence, how can one process and understand data? It's like trying to persuade someone but not understanding the command.

that's not necessarily how mind manipulation works. Not all mind manipulation requires the target to consciously or understand command. Some mind hax directly alter the mind itseld.

If a mind-manipulation technique that alters memories could succeed against someone with zero intelligence, would it be possible?

yea i think, depends what memories changes.

 

[MVMRainAngel]

It becomes mind manipulation when the ability directly affects the target’s mind, such as their thoughts, cognition, reasoning, awareness, memory, or mental state, rather than just lowering a numerical/statistical value.

What if that ability causes that person to attack even their own allies?

yea i think, depends what memories changes.

I still don't quite understand because there's no intelligence to receive or understand information. How can mind manipulation via altered memory affect someone who has no memory and can't understand information? If it were a conceptual mind manipulation ability, that would be understandable.

 

[DenzOnigiri]

What if that ability causes that person to attack even their own allies?

can't understand what ur saying, but looks like mind manipulation to me. well still depends on the feats itself.

I still don't quite understand because there's no intelligence to receive or understand information. How can mind manipulation via altered memory affect someone who has no memory and can't understand information? If it were a conceptual mind manipulation ability, that would be understandable.

you're changing the conditions of the argument. your original question was only about "zero intelligence". cmiiw

 

[MVMRainAngel]

you're changing the conditions of the argument. your original question was only about "zero intelligence". cmiiw

Um, I mean, if character A has the ability to manipulate minds by altering memories, could they do anything to character B who has no intelligence whatsoever? Could you share your thoughts? Thank you very much for your reply

 

[DenzOnigiri]

Um, I mean, if character A has the ability to manipulate minds by altering memories, could they do anything to character B who has no intelligence whatsoever? Could you share your thoughts? Thank you very much for your reply

It depends on what "no intelligence whatsoever" means. Zero intelligence by itself does not automatically mean the target lacks a mind, consciousness, instincts, or memories. Since the ability in your example works through memory alteration, the important factor isn't intelligence itself, but whether character B has memories or a mental structure that can be altered.

If character B still possesses memories/a mind, then memory manipulation could potentially work even if their intelligence is extremely low. However, if "no intelligence whatsoever" is being used to mean character B literally has no memories, no mental processes, and no mind at all, then ordinary memory manipulation would have nothing to affect. This would likely need mind manipulation on concept scale (not that sure).

 

[MVMRainAngel]

It depends on what "no intelligence whatsoever" means. Zero intelligence by itself does not automatically mean the target lacks a mind, consciousness, instincts, or memories. Since the ability in your example works through memory alteration, the important factor isn't intelligence itself, but whether character B has memories or a mental structure that can be altered.

But if character B lacks intelligence, and character A alters their memories, how can character B follow orders or process data and information when they understand nothing?

 

[DenzOnigiri]

But if character B lacks intelligence, and character A alters their memories, how can character B follow orders or process data and information when they understand nothing?

Ya Tuhan I'm repeating this again, you are confusing intellectual comprehension with instinctual response. Mind manipulation and memory alteration do not require the target to 'understand' a command like a normal conversation.

if char A alters char B memories, they aren't giving B a verbal order that B needs to translate and process. they are directly rewriting B internal reality. even beings with 'zero intelligence' (like mindless beasts, zombies) react to stimuli. if they have memories, those memories govern their basic instincts (like 'this thing is food,' 'this thing is danger').

though u actually rght about one thing: if char A alters B memory to make B think they are a loyal soldier, and then orders B to 'infiltrate the enemy base and hack the mainframe,' B cannot do it. yhey lack the intelligence to process that complex order. however, if char A alters B memory so that B 'remembers' char A as its creator, or master, B will instinctually stop attacking them. B doesn't need to 'understand' anything; its basic instinctual programming has just been given a new, altered foundation to react to.

if char B has 'zero intelligence' but still possesses a physiological or conceptual mind/memory to alter, char A doesn't need B to process complex data. Altering the memory changes B instinctual reactions, not their intellectual understanding. B won't be able to carry out complex missions, but char A can absolutely pacify them, make them docile, or redirect their aggression just by altering what B instincts are reacting to."

idk what am i talking about now, hope this help