Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)

[The_real_cal_howard]

I think it's more of a scaling thing, as Rei wields an Arceus avatar, which is superior to Giratina's true form

Speaking of which, how are we handling Giratina's true form given that its Origin Form is referred to in Legends as "its true strength"?

Tbf there’s nothing proving that Giratina just didn’t pool its full power its avatar that time. Especially given it makes no sense for Giratina to not being his A-game when he was fully planning to dethrone his dad right after that, and Arceus kicked his nonexistent butt last time.
Also it’s canon that the Red Chain draws the true forms of the gods where they manifest as their avatars. And Lucas and Rei both match Red Chain Dialga/Palkia.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Is it possible for Giratina's Origin Form to be considered its true form, then?

 

[CloverDragon03]

nothing really indicates that true form giratina is weaker than Arceus avatar. True form Arceus is >>>TF Giratina but that doesn't mean its the same for the avatar. At best the argument is that its immortal.

I'm not sure what the argument is for scaling for avatars and true forms, I'm just going off of what the argument appears to be

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Is it possible for Giratina's Origin Form to be considered its true form, then?

Nah. It’s explicitly confirmed that Giratina’s true form is the Distortion World itself. At best we can argue that Giratina manifests the full power of the DW into the Origin Forme. Same with the…Creation Horses.

 

[Arceus0x]

Tbf there’s nothing proving that Giratina just didn’t pool its full power its avatar that time. Especially given it makes no sense for Giratina to not being his A-game when he was fully planning to dethrone his dad right after that, and Arceus kicked his nonexistent butt last time.

then it'd scale AT BEST to PLA akari and rei. That is if one can even prove that he did use his true form then which is also impobable since he is the embodiment of the distortion world in his true form and what we see is an avatar

 

[CloverDragon03]

Nah. It’s explicitly confirmed that Giratina’s true form is the Distortion World itself. At best we can argue that Giratina manifests the full power of the DW into the Origin Forme. Same with the…Creation Horses.

So, it's basically using the power of its true form in its avatar? Just making sure I'm getting this right

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Trained Pokémon, Legendary or not, can reach any level when trained. But wild, they have a set level, most of the time. Theoretically, you can put most Pokémon with a multiversal key, as a majority of Pokémon are owned by a protag or gym leader that hit that level, but the only owned Pokémon that’s story relevant (with the possible exception of Red’s Pikachu and Charizard) that does that is Mewtwo, and even then it’s because of “USUM to Masters”

I'm sorry but this literally breaks all scaling and make every Pokemon scale to every other one. By this logic a level 1 Rattata can beat a Level 100 Arceus using fear easily so would that make Rattata > Arceus???? Or any other Pokemon that can beat any other legendary.

I get that Pokemon is an RPG but we should seriously consider what is game mechanics for scaling and what is not, because stats, HP and all base stats are pretty much just game mechanics, since a level 20 Rattata will stomp a Level 1 Arceus any day, yet Arceus is 2-A as well due to his own feats in the lore

I think we should scale the trainers based on the story of the games and the lore behind it rather than game mechanics, so:

Kanto: No special scaling to legendaries, Red > Blue > Lance, Red is even stronger 3 years later

Johto: Same thing

Hoenn: Maybe scaling to Groudon and Kyogre, but Emerald also exists and there the player do nothing aside from waking Rayquaza to stop Groudon and Kyogre. Besides, it was very much implied that no one can beat Groudon or Kyogre without the other Orbs so scaling to them doesn't work

Sinnoh: Same thing as in Hoenn, you face the legendaries but aren't required to beat them to proceed, so scaling is dubious

Unova (BW): This is probably one of the few cases where it might work, since the player is forced to catch Reshiram/Zekrom and fight N who has the other legendary pokemon. However, this may be only because they have Reshiram/Zekrom by their side to counter the other legendary, and orher than that N's team is not as strong

Unova (B2W2): You are required to beat Kyurem Black/White, but this may be an outlier given that the elite four should be stronger than Ghetsis who control Kyurem, as well as Iris being above the E4

Kalos: You need to catch

Alola: You do fight Type: Null / Silvally, who is made to counter UBs, but given how even the elite four has Pokemon nowhere near as strong, this may be an outlier for Elio/Selene to scale

Galar: Yes they fight Eternatus, but this is done in a raid battle when Zacian and Zamazenta do most of the heavy lifting against it

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Galar: Yes they fight Eternatus, but this is done in a raid battle when Zacian and Zamazenta do most of the heavy lifting against it

I mean that's only for Eternamax Eternatus, Leon matches Base Eternatus and Victor/Gloria defeats it

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean that's only for Eternamax Eternatus, Leon matches Base Eternatus and Victor/Gloria defeats it

So Eternatus should not be scaled to Zacian and Zamazenta in Base, and only in Eternamax form

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So Eternatus should not be scaled to Zacian and Zamazenta in Base, and only in Eternamax form

I don't think that changes much? High 6-A comes from Base Eternatus

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I don't think that changes much? High 6-A comes from Base Eternatus

How High 6-A? Isn't the Darkest Day limited to the Galar region? Otherwise we'd hear about Pokemon Dynamaxing all over the world

 

[CloverDragon03]

How High 6-A? Isn't the Darkest Day limited to the Galar region? Otherwise we'd hear about Pokemon Dynamaxing all over the world

Base Eternatus scales above Gigantamax Urshifu, who scales 5x above regular Urshifu, who scales above Regice, who scales to Groudon

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Base Eternatus scales above Gigantamax Urshifu, who scales 5x above regular Urshifu, who scales above Regice, who scales to Groudon

Aren't all the Regis together scale to Groudon/Kyogre? Don't think that just Regice alone scale to Groudon when it and Kyogre are stated to be the strongest legendaries in Hoenn sans Rayquaza

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think if anything, all three would scale to Groudon + Kyogre since they were able to limit the clash of both of them. So, that'd be:

(216.31 * 2) / 3 = 144.21 petatons (High 6-A)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Didn't Rayquaza stopped them? The Regis weren't involved with Groudon and Kyogre's battle

 

[CloverDragon03]

Didn't Rayquaza stopped them? The Regis weren't involved with Groudon and Kyogre's battle

In the manga, the Regis all limit the spread of their clash before Rayquaza shows up

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

In the manga, the Regis all limit the spread of their clash before Rayquaza shows up

Ok then, though I'm not sure they'd scale to their full power since the energy from their clash spreaded across Hoenn

 

[Arceus0x]

Sinnoh: Same thing as in Hoenn, you face the legendaries but aren't required to beat them to proceed, so scaling is dubious

Platinum exists and you need to face giratina either way

Alola: You do fight Type: Null / Silvally, who is made to counter UBs, but given how even the elite four has Pokemon nowhere near as strong, this may be an outlier for Elio/Selene to scale

You also need to fight Ultra Necrozma and Buzzwole as well as Solgaleo and Lunala before Lillie leaves.

Galar: Yes they fight Eternatus, but this is done in a raid battle when Zacian and Zamazenta do most of the heavy lifting against it

You also fight base eternatus who downscales from his full form

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Platinum exists and you need to face giratina either way

You can just run away you know. You're not required to defeat it to continue

You also need to fight Ultra Necrozma and Buzzwole as well as Solgaleo and Lunala before Lillie leaves.

Fair point on UN, though when you fight Buzzwole before the E4 in USUM?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ok then, though I'm not sure they'd scale to their full power since the energy from their clash spreaded across Hoenn

That's the thing, they stopped it from spreading, keeping it contained in that area near the origin

 

[XVII]

This is a case of a Naming Fallacy, Hoopa having attacks called "Hyperspace Hole" and "Hyperspace Fury" don't indicate it being Hyperverse level, especially when no one is remotely close to this in the verse itself

aw man i wish we could get 1-B pokemon

 

[CosmicWreck]

That's the thing, they stopped it from spreading, keeping it contained in that area near the origin

Should you even use that scaling though? I'm pretty sure in this thread people were talking about separating the profiles from their composite styles into their different mediums. Doesn't make any sense to add it if it's just going to get removed.

Also, why is there true form Giratina and Arceus as separate keys? In the anime, their true forms (in Palkia and Dialga's case anyway) are their dimensions, with Arceus and Giratina not being even known to have their own true forms.

In Legends Dialga and Palkia were revealed to have their true forms in the form of Origin formes, but Giratina's true form is a universe (Platinum) and Arceus' is a spirit (folklore), neither of which are implied to battle or even act in those states in any way that would be useful for a fight or would support the need for an entire separate key. The keys should be removed with either a note written or a relevant ability listed in their Powers and Abilities section (if they're not listed already).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm sorry but this literally breaks all scaling and make every Pokemon scale to every other one. By this logic a level 1 Rattata can beat a Level 100 Arceus using fear easily so would that make Rattata > Arceus???? Or any other Pokemon that can beat any other legendary.

I get that Pokemon is an RPG but we should seriously consider what is game mechanics for scaling and what is not, because stats, HP and all base stats are pretty much just game mechanics, since a level 20 Rattata will stomp a Level 1 Arceus any day, yet Arceus is 2-A as well due to his own feats in the lore

Bro this is what I argued against in the OP. The only scaling it breaks is the arbitrary one we made up that goes against how we treat every other game like this. Also I like…said none of this. I brought up nothing about FEAR or game mechanics or stats. Levels aren’t game mechanics as they’re brought up in both the anime and manga but that’s not important. Also, yes. A Rattata trained by, idk, Red or Rei or Elio can hit 2-A. You forget that the strongest Pokémon in the series is already a mouse, specifically Red’s Pikachu (TF Arceus isn’t really a Pokémon).

I think we should scale the trainers based on the story of the games and the lore behind it rather than game mechanics, so:

I’m not scaling based on game mechanics. It’s just lore. X fights Y. Y is that level. X fights Z after he fights Y. Z scales to Y.

Kanto: No special scaling to legendaries, Red > Blue > Lance, Red is even stronger 3 years later

Johto: Same thing

Even with your scaling with the implication of the protag never going out of their way to encounter optional Legendaries, Suicune is a mandatory fight in Crystal and the Tower Duo are mandatory in HGSS. And speaking of the first part our rules somehow go off of the fact that protags never fight the Legendaries even though like…every other JRPG we wholeheartedly are fine with scaling them to optional bosses or superbosses. As in-game dialogue only occurs if they’re fought. This is no different. Red in particular set out to catch them all, and the idea you’re proposing is that he stopped short.

Hoenn: Maybe scaling to Groudon and Kyogre, but Emerald also exists and there the player do nothing aside from waking Rayquaza to stop Groudon and Kyogre. Besides, it was very much implied that no one can beat Groudon or Kyogre without the other Orbs so scaling to them doesn't work

In Ruby Sapphire and the remakes, Brendan outright fights Groudon and Kyogre, implications or not. Like, actions speak louder than words.

Sinnoh: Same thing as in Hoenn, you face the legendaries but aren't required to beat them to proceed, so scaling is dubious

Again, idk why we just assumed that the protags just run away at the start of the fight, when the game makes it very obvious that the canon is that the protag fights the Legend.

Unova (BW): This is probably one of the few cases where it might work, since the player is forced to catch Reshiram/Zekrom and fight N who has the other legendary pokemon. However, this may be only because they have Reshiram/Zekrom by their side to counter the other legendary, and orher than that N's team is not as strong

Keep in mind that you still have to fight the Tao Legendary before you can catch him, and Ghetsis not only fights you but was prepared to fight N with normal Pokémon.

Unova (B2W2): You are required to beat Kyurem Black/White, but this may be an outlier given that the elite four should be stronger than Ghetsis who control Kyurem, as well as Iris being above the E4

No. No mention of outliers here. Please, we’ve had to deal with every instance of trainers facing the Legends as outliers, when in reality it has the same energy as, idk, saying Bartz scaling to Exdeath or Crono scaling to Lavos being an outlier.

Alola: You do fight Type: Null / Silvally, who is made to counter UBs, but given how even the elite four has Pokemon nowhere near as strong, this may be an outlier for Elio/Selene to scale

See above. This is a non-argument.

Galar: Yes they fight Eternatus, but this is done in a raid battle when Zacian and Zamazenta do most of the heavy lifting against it

Before the protag even shows up, Leon beats base Eternatus enough to get him into a Pokeball. Eternatus just escapes the Pokeball and the resultant energy knocks him out. Also the protag + Hop still damage Eternamax with their Pokémon and matches Hop who owns the other Legendary during the postgame

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Like unironically, the top 5 Pokémon would look something like this.
1) True form Arceus (nobody scales to this)
2/3) Elio’s Incineroar/Red’s Pikachu
4) Red’s Charizard
5) Blue’s Pidgeot

Dude no, Leon's Charizard is just vastly stronger, he's said to be the strongest trainer in the games as well

 

[XXKINGXX69]

nothing really indicates that true form giratina is weaker than Arceus avatar. True form Arceus is >>>TF Giratina but that doesn't mean its the same for the avatar. At best the argument is that its immortal.

Arceus' avatar is amped by his plates, which sustains the Original Spirit, and can destroy the cosmology, including his own realm. Original Spirit is barely stronger than his avatar

wouldn't it be
1) True form Arceus
2) True form Palkia/Dialga/Giratina
3) True form lake trio
4. Elio's Incineroar/Red's Pikachu?

The Lake Trio can literally destroy the red chain which the Creation Trio couldn't, and their true forms have no indication of being stronger, in fact they use their avatars when going all out in the manga, games and anime

 

[y3p_owo]

nothing really indicates that true form giratina is weaker than Arceus avatar. True form Arceus is >>>TF Giratina but that doesn't mean its the same for the avatar. At best the argument is that its immortal.

Well Volo was going to use Giratina to get Arceus and use it's power, so we could say that (at least) Avatar Giratina should have some scaling to Avatar Arceus

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, I gave scans for why Gen 8 trainers postgame should scale to amped versions of the creation trio, and BW2 protag fighting the lake trio who were pretty serious, and Fantina can use Giratina in BW2 who the protag can beat

Well Volo was going to use Giratina to get Arceus and use it's power, so we could say that (at least) Avatar Giratina should have some scaling to Avatar Arceus

He was wrong about Arceus' power, so he's not even reliable, and Giratina is explicitly a lot weaker than Arceus, though he can survive supereffective moves from him

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'm sorry but this literally breaks all scaling and make every Pokemon scale to every other one. By this logic a level 1 Rattata can beat a Level 100 Arceus using fear easily so would that make Rattata > Arceus???? Or any other Pokemon that can beat any other legendary.

I get that Pokemon is an RPG but we should seriously consider what is game mechanics for scaling and what is not, because stats, HP and all base stats are pretty much just game mechanics, since a level 20 Rattata will stomp a Level 1 Arceus any day, yet Arceus is 2-A as well due to his own feats in the lore

I think we should scale the trainers based on the story of the games and the lore behind it rather than game mechanics, so:

Kanto: No special scaling to legendaries, Red > Blue > Lance, Red is even stronger 3 years later

Johto: Same thing

Hoenn: Maybe scaling to Groudon and Kyogre, but Emerald also exists and there the player do nothing aside from waking Rayquaza to stop Groudon and Kyogre. Besides, it was very much implied that no one can beat Groudon or Kyogre without the other Orbs so scaling to them doesn't work

Sinnoh: Same thing as in Hoenn, you face the legendaries but aren't required to beat them to proceed, so scaling is dubious

Unova (BW): This is probably one of the few cases where it might work, since the player is forced to catch Reshiram/Zekrom and fight N who has the other legendary pokemon. However, this may be only because they have Reshiram/Zekrom by their side to counter the other legendary, and orher than that N's team is not as strong

Unova (B2W2): You are required to beat Kyurem Black/White, but this may be an outlier given that the elite four should be stronger than Ghetsis who control Kyurem, as well as Iris being above the E4

Kalos: You need to catch

Alola: You do fight Type: Null / Silvally, who is made to counter UBs, but given how even the elite four has Pokemon nowhere near as strong, this may be an outlier for Elio/Selene to scale

Galar: Yes they fight Eternatus, but this is done in a raid battle when Zacian and Zamazenta do most of the heavy lifting against it

There is literally dialogue for beating Giratina in a fight

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Dude no, Leon's Charizard is just vastly stronger, he's said to be the strongest trainer in the games as well

Leon’s never fought anyone out of his region. Red has the same statements and actually leaves his region.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Leon’s never fought anyone out of his region. Red has the same statements and actually leaves his region.

He has, he literally fights people in world championships and people who see trainers in other regions say he's the strongest

Red's statements only come from Masters, and Red before masters just loses to Ethan and Elio, doesn't even beat anyone else

 

[XXKINGXX69]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/legendary-pokemon-scaling-anime.134988/

Read that

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Uh most of Leon's statements of the strongest come from the anime/manga. This is purely the games. Red in the Games is essentially how Leon is seen in the Anime. He has a lot more statements placing him as the strongest ever in the regular games. Even the Pokemon company made some quotes about him being the absolute strongest. And Masters could be used considering while the game is debatably canon, the interactions are, and guess what Red's supremacy quotes are from ? His interactions.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Uh most of Leon's statements of the strongest come from the anime/manga. This is purely the games. Red in the Games is essentially how Leon is seen in the Anime. He has a lot more statements placing him as the strongest ever in the regular games. Even the Pokemon company made some quotes about him being the absolute strongest. And Masters could be used considering while the game is debatably canon, the interactions are, and guess what Red's supremacy quotes are from ? His interactions.

Masters is definitely canon dude, they used scenes from Sword and Shield in flashbacks and just takes place after the games

Where is Red said to be the strongest trainer? Leon is said to be the strongest in the games and defeated the strongest Pokemon eternatus

 

[XXKINGXX69]

if we include anime, the list of strongest Pokemon should be something like this

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I'll need to gather them since I don't have them on hand. But, Masters, Considering we considering Pokemon Masters is Canon, it would mean Red is straight up stronger than Leon. He is stayed to have never lost despite World Championship involving every Champion: Including Leon since we know from Sword and Shield Leon did actually go to the World Championship. And we know canonically if it's like PWT they are all not given any external amps. So it's just baseline Pokémon.

Also this is only Games lore. The Anime/Manga isn't used here.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'll need to gather them since I don't have them on hand. But, Masters, Considering we considering Pokemon Masters is Canon, it would mean Red is straight up stronger than Leon. He is stayed to have never lost despite World Championship involving every Champion: Including Leon since we know from Sword and Shield Leon did actually go to the World Championship. And we know canonically if it's like PWT they are all not given any external amps. So it's just baseline Pokémon.

Also this is only Games lore. The Anime/Manga isn't used here.

We are talking about pre masters key here dude

Red has literally lost in the past dude, that statement is just dumb as hell

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Leon’s never fought anyone out of his region. Red has the same statements and actually leaves his region.

We can talk about Masters keys in the next crt, are you gonna make it?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Should Leon have a separate key for his anime version since that version provides a ton of "strongest trainer" statements?

 

[Arceus0x]

Should Leon have a separate key for his anime version since that version provides a ton of "strongest trainer" statements?

It would be like 6-C. Make it after he shows his full team

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

An outright separate profile imo

Should Leon have a separate key for his anime version since that version provides a ton of "strongest trainer" statements?