Pokemon Sun and Moon Stat Placements.

[VileShadows]

I guess I'm for the Guzzlord calc I!

 

[Dark649]

Guzzlord calc I!, for being more consistent.

 

[Cropfist]

for the Guzzlord calc, I!.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It would be nice to be able to confirm the calc first, but y'know I!

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You may need to personally message some of them. Also I!

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Type:_Null_(Pokémon)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Silvally_(Pokémon)

I don't own the game, nor do I play it (cause I can't, though I'd love to), so forgive me if I'm wrong.

But as far as I'm aware, Type: Null does NOT scale to Arceus in any way. Direct from Null's bulbapedia page:

Type: Null was created by the Aether Foundatio to be an anti-UB Fighting life-form. Codenamed "Beast Killer", Type: Null was given cells taken from all known Pokémon types with the intention of giving it the ability to shift between types by holding a corresponding Memory.

So yeah. It was meant to be able to counter UB's, but never got the chance - it rejected the type change ability (RKS System). Also, Silvally is able to utilize the RKS system, so it might be able to scale to the UB's, considering that it 1) destroyed its limiter helmet and 2) is able to use the RKS System, therefore being at its full potential as intended. And there's the game stats, with 95 base per stat - 5 below the average legendary pokemon. Of course, that's me giving a theory.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

^You didn't listen to what I said, didn't you

Type: Null directly fought an UB, he clearly scale. And Sylvally is even stronger than Null. Again, Silvally was given power rivaling that of Arceus to fight the UB. So you didn't really debunk anything

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Eh, sorry. I only have data based off the bulbapedia, I haven't played the games to see for myself.

Also, how does Silvally have power rivaling Arceus's? Just because they have similar abilities does not mean that Silvally automatically becomes that powerful.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Oh yeah, I'm in favor of Guzzlord calc since there's apparently nothing better than that.

And when you're in favor, you say, "Aye", not I. =/

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The website stated that it was desgined to have power rivaling that of Mythical Pokémon (Since they studied the Sinnho ruins that talk about Arceus to make Type: Null, I think that the Mythical Pokémon being Arceus is obvious.)

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Ok, I found the Null page. http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/pokemon/type-null/

Only thing I'm missing is the Sinnho ruins thing. Do you mean the Sinjoh ruins, where something special happens if you bring an Event Arceus? Please give a link.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's in the game, I don't have a link sadly. But there is still many reasons to think that it's Arceus. The ability, the name of the ability in all translation etc.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Meh, thanks anyways. Reasonable enough theory, though not 100% solid - others might eventually pick over the details. Guess we'll have to wait a month or so for more details to come out; there's bound to be a movie or something released about it.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Saikou

The thing is, I believe that they intended Type: Null to have the power of Arceus, but former was ultimately a failure. Even Silvally's name can be taken as a silver medal or second best.

I have no problems scaling Type: Null and Silvally to the Ultra Beasts, but not Arceus and the Creation Trio.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It was only a failure because it went on a rampage. Silvally doesn't have the limiter, and has all the intended features. Even if it's not exactly on the same power level, being second to him in power wouldn't make it only Tier 5

 

[Reppuzan]

By that logic, all of the Ultra Beasts would be Tier 2, which would contradict all of their other feats.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Let's just use the Guzzlord calc to avoid problems...

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I already said that I'm against scaling Null to the UB like that.

Null should only be potentially 2-B/C, since it's unknown if Silvally is at its peak during the game (He most likely isn't)

 

[Reppuzan]

@Saikou

It should be noted that Silvally belongs to Gladion. There's no way the latter would have lost in a fight if it scales as you say.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And there is no way N would be threatened by anything with the Legendary Dragons in his team. It's just plain PIS like we have seen so much off in Pokémon. By that Logic, Dawn would be Tier 2

 

[Reppuzan]

It still makes little sense to scale a man-made Pokemon up to the literal God of the Pokemon Multiverse based on nothing but the fact that it was made to use its power but hasn't shown anything to suggest that it has that sort of scale.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

@Saikou I think it is best to hold off on 2-B Silvally for now. Let's just worry about 5-B Silvally and stuff for now. Fair enough?

 

[VileShadows]

To be honest, unless an official source directly says that Silvally was meant to rival Arceus' power, we can't assume that. The website said "Pokémon often spoken of in Mythology". Yes, there are many reasons that point towards Silvally being modeled after Arceus, but nothing indicates that it rivals Arceus to any capacity. "Often spoken of in mythology" can apply to almost any legendary really, and it would make more sense if it was intended to be stronger than most of the world's legendaries since that power would presumably be efficient enough to fight of other-worldly threats. The basis of its ability spread comes from Arceus without a doubt, but it just doesn't seem reasonable to me to scale it directly to Arceus' power based on that. Silvally should just scale to the UBs and the Guzzlord calc for now, and quite honestly I don't think anything is gonna happen within the context of either the games or the anime to indicate anything different.

I guess one thing I could also bring up are Silvally's stats. For the billionth time, I'm fully aware that they don't matter at all in scaling due to obvious reasons, but let me just clear something up. Arceus has base 120 in every stat for a BST of 720 and an excellent movepool that makes it one of the strongest Pokémon in the Ubers metagame. Silvally just has 95 in every stat, which indicates a failure more than anything, that's lower than the likes of Mew and Celebi and only adds up to 570. Am I saying scale it below Mew because of that? No, of course not, it has the Guzzlord calc as a piece of Low 5-B evidence, however 95 does NOT look like a "successful" clone of Arceus, the thing barely qualifies for UU.

 

[Reppuzan]

@ShadowGamer

Base stats are simply game mechanics and can't be used for scaling.

Silvally was explicitly based on Arceus if its, "RKS System" and pseudo-Multitype ability is anything to go by.

 

[VileShadows]

@ShadowGamer

Base stats are simply game mechanics and can't be used for scaling.

Silvally was explicitly based on Arceus if its, "RKS System" and pseudo-Multitype ability is anything to go by.

I've stated multiple times that stats are nothing to go off of. What I'm trying to say is that stats like those do not portray a successful clone. It's not evidence, it's just something extra that I think it's good to note. The sheer difference in power and ability in gameplay between them shows that Gamefreak had no interest in making Silvally all that special.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's been literally stated that Silvally has power comparable to said Pokémon. Not just that it has similar power. "[...]there was need of a Pokémon powerful enough to rival those Pokémon often spoken of in mythology." It's not just ability. It literally says it needs to be powerful enough to rival them.

 

[VileShadows]

It's been literally stated that Silvally has power comparable to said Pokémon. Not just that it has similar power. "[...]there was need of a Pokémon powerful enough to rival those Pokémon often spoken of in mythology." It's not just ability. It literally says it needs to be powerful enough to rival them.

I already touched upon that in my post. That statement isn't direct enough. There no indication that the Pokémon it was modeled after (Arceus), and the Pokémon its meant to rival are not the same individual. In fact, the way it's worded says that there are multiple Pokémon it's meant to rival. "those Pokémon often spoken of in mythology" if it was just one it would be "a Pokémon often spoke of in mythology". It makes more sense than anything that it's supposed to be more powerful than various legendary Pokémon from around the world, that sort of power is great enough to protect humanity, however scaling it to Arceus is barely backed by anything, if anything at all really.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

And nevermind all the references to Arceus about Type: Null, and that he was most likely modeled after him. Beside, "Mythology" more often refers to the Creation Trio + Arceus than any other legendary. There is no reason to mention such a vague thing if it's going to just be Legendary Pokémon in generals. Not even all of them are Mythical.

 

[VileShadows]

And nevermind all the references to Arceus about Type: Null, and that he was most likely modeled after him. Beside, "Mythology" more often refers to the Creation Trio + Arceus than any other legendary. There is no reason to mention such a vague thing if it's going to just be Legendary Pokémon in generals. Not even all of them are Mythical.

Like I've said, there's plenty of evidence suggesting that Type:Null is modeled after Arceus, I've stated that and I haven't tried to fight that, it's a very obvious fact at this point. What I am trying to say is that Silvally hasn't been stated to rival specifically Arceus. It makes sense if you think about it, being able to rival the world's legendaries? That's extremely impressive for something manmade (that isn't named Mewtwo lol), and like I said, it should give people an idea of the scope of its power. With "mythology", I don't think they're trying to separate Mythicals and Legendaries into two groups, because it's not like the info surrounding them is any different. They're all based on some sort of myth or legend (keep in mind, the creation trio are all "legendary" while Arceus is "mythical", though they are featured in the same tale) that is widely known based on the region, and telling people that their prototype is stronger than even that region's legendaries should be frightening.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Anyway. It seems as though the calc had some problems. So Saikou what are we gonna do for scaling?

 

[Dark649]

All the three Silvally's are said to be created by the humans in order to fight the Ultra Beasts, but they were considered to be failures and later broke havok. They should be not scaled at all to the tier 2 pokémon, maybe they should be scaled to the Ultra Beasts, but i don't like the idea of having Tier 6 trainers because of this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If they meant Lunala & Solgaleo, they would have made it much more obvious, and the Tapus are different from "Regular" Legenedaries, they are more active and present gods than Mythology. And again, Arceus + Creation Trio are the ones the most often spoken of in Mythology. To specific both his design inspiration and that he is on part with Mythological Pokémon, without the two being linked.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Dark I already adressed that point. They were only failures because they went Beserk. Sivally is easily the intended and finished product.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I was ignored....

 

[VileShadows]

I was ignored....

If it makes you feel any better I read your post :v

Lol anyways we should redirect our attention to the calc if there are problems with it, that's the most important thing we have.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Several things of note.

• Specimens of Type: Full (Silvally's original title) were not considered failures due to anything having to do with power. They were quite good in their original purpose, which was killing UBs. They were deemed failures because they were virtually impossible to control and were pretty much as dangerous as the UBs themselves, hence why they were restricted, stripped of the full RKS system capabilities, and designated as "Type: Null".

• Type: Full is confirmed to be based on Arceus, hence why it has Arceus' abilitiy to utilize any and all types on a whim. This does not mean it scales to Arceus.

• Type: Null/Silvally obviously scales to the UBs. Off the top of my head, the trainers who would thus scale to Gladion would be the player character (who defeated Gladion even after he obtained Silvally) and Guzma (who casually beat down Gladion and Type: Null while laughing in his face).

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Several things of note.

• Specimens of Type: Full (Silvally's original title) were not considered failures due to anything having to do with power. They were quite good in their original purpose, which was killing UBs. They were deemed failures because they were virtually impossible to control and were pretty much as dangerous as the UBs themselves, hence why they were restricted, stripped of the full RKS system capabilities, and designated as "Type: Null".

• Type: Full is confirmed to be based on Arceus, hence why it has Arceus' abilitiy to utilize any and all types on a whim. This does not mean it scales to Arceus.

• Type: Null/Silvally obviously scales to the UBs. Off the top of my head, the trainers who would thus scale to Gladion would be the player character (who defeated Gladion even after he obtained Silvally) and Guzma (who casually beat down Gladion and Type: Null while laughing in his face).

This pretty much sums it up.


Would Hau somewhat scale as well, considering that Gladion even acknowledged his power as a trainer and said eh was strong?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This pretty much sums it up.


Would Hau somewhat scale as well, considering that Gladion even acknowledged his power as a trainer and said eh was strong?

Possibly. I'm not sure though, as Hau never actually succeeded in defeating Gladion. However, Hau did get stronger, as seen during the Pokemon League title defense match.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

^Did Hau beat Guzma? Y'Know when he fought Guzma while you were fighting Lusamine. Also Lusamine obviously scales.

 

[Dark649]

^Did Hau beat Guzma? Y'Know when he fought Guzma while you were fighting Lusamine. Also Lusamine obviously scales.

Yes they should scale, but if the High 6-A feat is accepted then these trainers will be upgraded and them being stronger than Greevil leggendary team and Ghecis team (With Kyurem) seems too inconsistent too me.