Pokemon Sun and Moon Stat Placements.

[VileShadows]

^I agree with the first part about Silvally, though I still think Solgaleo shouldn't be classed in 4-C. We haven't gotten a direct statement or event that displays this happening, but more important than that, it's mostly a reference to alchemy. As a lot of people have pointed out (mostly Gnoggin, check out his Sun and Moon videos if you haven't already), Alola has a huge connection to alchemy given all the hidden symbolism, the creation of a chimera meant to replicate God's power (Silvally. This is also akin to the purpose of a Philosopher's Stone), and Alolan Muk having the ability Power of Alchemy. Among the many alchemical symbols is a lion eating the sun, and while I forgot exactly what it means, I do know that Solgaleo was likely based off of this symbol, including the "devouring the sun" thing. Solgaleo is also more of an emissary of the sun rather than the embodiment of it, which I believe someone in this thread pointed out earlier.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

^I agree with the first part about Silvally, though I still think Solgaleo shouldn't be classed in 4-C. We haven't gotten a direct statement or event that displays this happening, but more important than that, it's mostly a reference to alchemy. As a lot of people have pointed out (mostly Gnoggin, check out his Sun and Moon videos if you haven't already), Alola has a huge connection to alchemy given all the hidden symbolism, the creation of a chimera meant to replicate God's power (Silvally. This is also akin to the purpose of a Philosopher's Stone), and Alolan Muk having the ability Power of Alchemy. Among the many alchemical symbols is a lion eating the sun, and while I forgot exactly what it means, I do know that Solgaleo was likely based off of this symbol, including the "devouring the sun" thing. Solgaleo is also more of an emissary of the sun rather than the embodiment of it, which I believe someone in this thread pointed out earlier.

Now even if they aren't all in the Low to Mid 4-C range, I personally believe that The Tapus, Solgaleo, Lunala, and the UBs can all scale to the Pokemon Trainers in Alola. The Tapus are superior to all Pokemon on their islands and scale to each other. So what if all these Pokemon (who I mentioned earlier) are at least Mountain Level? How would this be the case? There are many strong trainers on Poni Island, Red, Blue, Cynthia, etc who are all Mountain Level (scaling from Brock who owns a Tyranitar), and Tapu Fini is the most powerful Pokemon on that island. The Tapus (who scale to each other) should be comparable (likely superior) to the Champions. The Tapus, UBs, Solgaleo, and Lunala (potentially even Sylvally) can all scale from that.

So as of right now, the power of The Tapus and UBs ranges from at least 7-B (superior to Wishiwashi), 7-A (scaling from the Champions), possibly Low 4-C as a high ball (All 4 of them fought Solgaleo at once).

Solgaleo and Lunala range from at least 7-B (superior to Wishiwashi), High 7-A (beat all 4 Tapus at once who may be on this level via scaling from the Champions), possibly 4-C (is said to be the beast that devours the sun)

And Sylvally can fit somewhere in there.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Dragon Do note that this Hoenn had no Mega Evolution. So no 5-C or Sub-Relat. If this calc is accepted, the scaling would only boost them to MHS+.

Sun and Moon's Hoenn has Mega Evolution, as it is implied to be the same world as ORAS. You can even buy Mega Stones at the Battle Tree.

Anyway, UBs should, by the standards of lore, be able to take on things like the Weather Trio. Pokemon's Interpol, who is at this point likely very familiar with every Pokemon out there (sans the Creation Trio, though Looker has had run-ins with them), considers the UBs too dangerous to be allowed to exist in the regular world unless under the supervision of an incredibly powerful trainer. There is a reason the UB missions are treated with urgency. It is stressed that if even one angry UB is allowed to roam free, it could be a disaster that results in massive casualties of both humans and Pokemon. This is one of the only instances I can recall of any Pokemon being treated as so dangerous, it has to be completely and utterly erased.

There is no "Try to defeat them and calm them down!". You're basically told "Try to capture them in a Beast Ball, but if you can't, you have to destroy them by any means necessary". Even Pokemon like Tyranitar, who can alter the landscape and crumble mountains by walking, are still treated as just another Pokemon. UBs are treated as a top priority threat by the most secretive and influential organization in the series.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So if we still had the Pokémon page as God tiers, top tiers, etc, where would the UB's fit?

Also, once I get further in the game, I think I can upgrade Charizard's speed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I was talking about an AU Hoenn, not the ORAS one.

Well most Legendaries are passive or asleep, so they don't pose direct threat. But then we have Mewtwo or Zygarde running free.

For the speed, I could accept "likely" for that reasoning. Their AP likely would be higher anyway via Guzzlord.

 

[VileShadows]

Well most Legendaries are passive or asleep, so they don't pose direct threat. But then we have Mewtwo or Zygarde running free.

To be fair, as far as game canon is considered, I don't think Mewtwo cares enough. Yes it's a very savage and ruthless Pokémon, and it could certainly destroy the world if it wanted, but it confines itself to a cave since it's only interested in harnessing energy, so I would call Mewtwo passive in a sense. Zygarde isn't really a threat either, since it's the order Pokémon. It's job is pretty much to regulate different cycles on the planet to protect the ecosystem, more specifically population, which is what Xerneas and Yveltal deal with.

Also lol sorry about the multiple posts, I think my edits derped out and were saved as additional replies instead

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

So where does everyone think the Tapus, UBs, Solgaleo, and Lunala belong in terms of stats (MHS is obvious in terms of speed)

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Also, Lusamine as an Ultra Beast is likely at least 7-A, and considering that the Tapus are comparable to the UBs, that should put the Tapus and UBs in the same tier as Lusamine should it not?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lusamine

 

[VileShadows]

So where does everyone think the Tapus, UBs, Solgaleo, and Lunala belong in terms of stats (MHS is obvious in terms of speed)

Let's talk more about the Guzzlord calc, that should help us come to a more direct conclusion.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

So where does everyone think the Tapus, UBs, Solgaleo, and Lunala belong in terms of stats (MHS is obvious in terms of speed)

Let's talk more about the Guzzlord calc, that should help us come to a more direct conclusion.

I'll look into it right now

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

So where does everyone think the Tapus, UBs, Solgaleo, and Lunala belong in terms of stats (MHS is obvious in terms of speed)

Let's talk more about the Guzzlord calc, that should help us come to a more direct conclusion.

Can I get a link to the calc? I am having trouble finding it.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Can I get a link to the calc? I am having trouble finding it.

Delete the quoted post of the post you are quoting next time and we're good.

On topic, I assume you mean this?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Saikou_The_Lewd_King/Guzzlord_Lives_Matters

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Can I get a link to the calc? I am having trouble finding it.

Delete the quoted post of the post you are quoting next time and we're good.
On topic, I assume you mean this?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Saikou_The_Lewd_King/Guzzlord_Lives_Matters

Yeah I mean that, so assuming everyone scales to that calc, would that put Solgaleo and Lunala at Planet Level since ust one of them was enough to beat all 4 Tapus at once (who by scaling to this are Small Planet Level each)?

 

[Gemmysaur]

I repeat.

Delete the quoted post of the post you are quoting next time and we're good.

As for the mons themselves. I don't know much about the latest game to make a comment.

 

[VileShadows]

Yeah I mean that, so assuming everyone scales to that calc, would that put Solgaleo and Lunala at Planet Level since ust one of them was enough to beat all 4 Tapus at once (who by scaling to this are Small Planet Level each)?

Makes sense to me. Let's get more opinions on this and then get an admin.

I think it's pretty funny that the Tapus outclass most of the other legendaries actually, but I can get behind it.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Yeah I mean that, so assuming everyone scales to that calc, would that put Solgaleo and Lunala at Planet Level since ust one of them was enough to beat all 4 Tapus at once (who by scaling to this are Small Planet Level each)?

Makes sense to me. Let's get more opinions on this and then get an admin.

I think it's pretty funny that the Tapus outclass most of the other legendaries actually, but I can get behind it.

Alright I'll spread the thread

 

[VileShadows]

It seems like the only thing that the Guzzlord calc doesn't directly scale to is Silvally. If it was made specifically to kill Ultra Beasts, it should at be Low 5-B, potentially higher if it was meant to kill large volumes of them. Some people had some disagreements about how to interpret Silvally's power in relation to Arceus, so we should also have a discussion about that.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

It seems like the only thing that the Guzzlord calc doesn't directly scale to is Silvally. If it was made specifically to kill Ultra Beasts, it should at be Low 5-B, potentially higher if it was meant to kill large volumes of them. Some people had some disagreements about how to interpret Silvally's power in relation to Arceus, so we should also have a discussion about that.

Silvally's power should have no relation to Arceus

We can put Silvally as Possibly Low 5-B assuming the Sun and Moon protagonist used Solgaleo/Lunala agains them, although I question it.

Silvally was a failed experiment and has never been shown to actually beat an Ultra Beast, so I say we leave Silvally alone.

 

[VileShadows]

Silvally was a failed experiment and has never been shown to actually beat an Ultra Beast, so I say we leave Silvally alone.

You've got a point there actually. I haven't completely finished the game, but I haven't heard of Silvally acting as anything but an obstacle for the protagonist rather than an active force in stopping the Ultra Beasts. If it hadn't been used, there isn't enough real evidence to conclude it could match the UBs. Perhaps Silvally was supposed to but ultimately wasn't able to.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Silvally was a failed experiment and has never been shown to actually beat an Ultra Beast, so I say we leave Silvally alone.

You've got a point there actually. I haven't completely finished the game, but I haven't heard of Silvally acting as anything but an obstacle for the protagonist rather than an active force in stopping the Ultra Beasts. If it hadn't been used, there isn't enough real evidence to conclude it could match the UBs. Perhaps Silvally was supposed to but ultimately wasn't able to.

Pretty much, that's why I've been mostly trying to avoid talking about it.

 

[VileShadows]

One other thing I can think of is if we can really scale the other UBs off of Guzzlord. Yes, they're all huge threats, but they should have differences in power similar to how normal Pokémon do. For example, you wouldn't scale Dugtrio to Tyranitar ordinarily, and if UBs are their own type of parallel Pokémon, the same logic should apply.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

One other thing I can think of is if we can really scale the other UBs off of Guzzlord. Yes, they're all huge threats, but they should have differences in power similar to how normal Pokémon do. For example, you wouldn't scale Dugtrio to Tyranitar ordinarily, and if UBs are their own type of parallel Pokémon, the same logic should apply.

Problem is unlike Dugtrio to T-Tar, we don't know the size of the power gap between other UBs and Guzzlord or if there even is one, so we have to scale the other UBs and Tapus to Guzzlord.

 

[VileShadows]

Problem is unlike Dugtrio to T-Tar, we don't know the size of the power gap between other UBs and Guzzlord or if there even is one, so we have to scale the other UBs and Tapus to Guzzlord.

I suppose it's easiest to group them as equals before we can find evidence to differentiate them further.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

IIRC, Nanu, who has fought Ultra Beasts for years, referred to Guzzlord as "a tough one" compared to the other UBs that showed up. The context and his overall tone would seem to imply Guzzlord to be the strongest of the five types of UBs to manifest after the Aether incident, but not by such an overwhelming amount that it was on an entirely different level.

 

[VileShadows]

IIRC, Nanu, who has fought Ultra Beasts for years, referred to Guzzlord as "a tough one" compared to the other UBs that showed up. The context and his overall tone would seem to imply Guzzlord to be the strongest of the five types of UBs to manifest after the Aether incident, but not by such an overwhelming amount that it was on an entirely different level.

Kind of ironic actually, out of the Ultra Beasts, Guzzlord has the least amount of competitive potential. It's essentially just a blob of Hp with garbage defense stats and average attacking stats (not to mention that 4x weakness to Fairy, ouch). Not that it means anything to its placement but I just find that funny lol

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Kind of ironic actually, out of the Ultra Beasts, Guzzlord has the least amount of competitive potential. It's essentially just a blob of Hp with garbage defense stats and average attacking stats (not to mention that 4x weakness to Fairy, ouch). Not that it means anything to its placement but I just find that funny lol

Guzzlord could have been so damn solid if it just had better defense and move options. Hell, I'd even be OK if one of his defenses became worse so the other became better. Make him some kind of eldritch dark/dragon Blissey.

A way to deal with Fairies (other than predicting a switch with Heavy Slam) would have been nice, too.

 

[VileShadows]

Guzzlord could have been so damn solid if it just had better defense and move options. Hell, I'd even be OK if one of his defenses became worse so the other became better. Make him some kind of eldritch dark/dragon Blissey.

A way to deal with Fairies (other than predicting a switch with Heavy Slam) would have been nice, too.

Yeah, I would've preferred a Blissey-like Guzzlord as well. Maybe they were trying to do that but didn't pull it off correctly (none of its stats are allocated in a way that makes sense). If it had slightly better base defenses, access to stockpile and a recovery/leeching option, and perhaps base 110 attack (which would be boosted further by Beast Boost), it could be a very formidable OU threat.

Edit: Just found out it does indeed get stockpile. Not like it can use it in a meaningful way unless it gets an opportunity though :/

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's wrong. Type: Null was used to fight UB-01 directly under Gladion's command (And won).

And I repeat myself. The Arceus thing is straightforward enough to deserve at least a mention (I still disagree with scaling those stats to the UBs though)

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I recall using game stats and levels are purely game mechanics in Pokemon so they will not be used at all.

 

[LordAizenSama]

"The beast that devours the sun" sounds like hyperbole.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Aizen Well the others has already add in their reasoning and suggest scaling them to the Weather Trio consider how they are quite the threat as mentioned by @Aza.

Edit: See the above comments.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably come to that conclusion. theres obviously still a sun, and he could be eating energy from the sun instead of.

Sorry but I don't want to go through over 100 responses, but theres gunna need to be better evidence then whats in the OP

 

[EnderShadowr215]

I see. In any case, I will be fine for a "possibly 4-C" rating anyway.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably come to that conclusion. theres obviously still a sun, and he could be eating energy from the sun instead of.
Sorry but I don't want to go through over 100 responses, but theres gunna need to be better evidence then whats in the OP

I don't agree with that statement either. I feel like we should just scale from the Guzzlord calc......That needs to be evaluated....

 

[Dark649]

I don't agree with that statement either. I feel like we should just scale from the Guzzlord calc......That needs to be evaluated....

Me too since it is very likely that some leggendary pokémon will fight the UB or Solgaleo/Lunala in the anime/manga continuity and them being scaled to star level is inconsistent like large star level Gardevoir and etc.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Well I suppose that might do, but who knows so we might as well wait.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Star level isn't inconsistent, just unsupported

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

Yeah I say we go off of the Guzzlord calc until they all get better feats.

 

[Pokémon_Trainer_Jacob]

So I'm going to take a vote

All in favor of going off of the Guzzlord calc say I!

All who oppose say Nay!

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

I think we should just stick with scaling to Guzzlord, so... "I!"