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Pokemon Related: Some Anime / Games materials scaling to 4-B

CryoTheMayo said:
Interesting, I can't verify your claims due to not playing or keeping tabs on Masters but that would explain why Ash's pokemon can contend with legendaries. I don't think you can claim Pikachu is stronger without that power though, considering Pikachu displays zero special potential or strength until it protects Ash, who was willing to give up his life to try and save it.
We see in Mystery of Mew that Ash's aura is immensely powerful, far greater than dozens or even hundreds of people in a single room and it seems it rivals an Aura Guardian, Aaron, with zero training. In the new anime, Ash's understanding of Pokemon has been mentioned and considered strange by Go (like Ash recognising the emotions of a herd of Ivysaur when Go is unable to) or how Ash somehow understood Lugia's speech when Go clearly couldn't. This might be more indication that Ash has a much stronger connection than others.

This also has indication in other things, like Ash's Greninja or how Pikachu struggled to overpower Gyarados and Tyranitar's Hyper Beam until Ash commanded it to go further.

I think what may be possible is that there are some pokemon that are naturally receptive to trainers (like Pikachu and Greninja) who can gain more power with powerful auras in trainers (like Ash). Pikachu's power would likely be much lower without Ash.
Click to expand...
According to Meowth, Pikachu is stronger than Raichu. That's why team Rocket so insisted on capturing Pikachu while other low tier Pokemon can also beat fully evolved Pokemon. I'll provide screenshots on Pokemon Masters to verify my claims after I'm done grinding for Mewtwo.
 
Does Meowth specify Pikachu is stronger than Raichu without Ash? If not, it's possible Pikachu is stronger than Raichu due to Ash's aura amplifying him. Pikachu was weaker than Lt Surge's Raichu and won due to using agility and its smaller size, so Pikachu can't be inherently stronger than the Raichu species. It must have been something that developed over time.
 
If Pikachu only stronger than Raichu because of Ash, there's no reason for Team Rocket to try so hard just to capture Pikachu.
 
TrueBK98 said:
If Pikachu only stronger than Raichu because of Ash, there's no reason for Team Rocket to try so hard just to capture Pikachu.
Click to expand...
Why would the Team Rocket trio know about the intricacies of how pokemon grow stronger via the bond between trainer and pokemon, which seems to only really be elaborated or hinted at by professors and professional trainers?
 
But the thing is, Team Rocket has met countless Pokémon that demonstrate power beyond normal but they still only aim at Pikachu.
 
TrueBK98 said:
But the thing is, Team Rocket has met countless Pokémon that demonstrate power beyond normal but they still only aim at Pikachu.
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That might be less due to Pikachu and more due to them becoming obssessed with how they have never managed to steal what seems to be such a rare specimen. And to be fair, I'm not saying Pikachu isn't special. I'm just questioning if its specialness stems from its attunement or sensitivity to Ash's aura.
 
I'm pretty sure Meowth was talking about Pikachu power level without the bond with Ash due to the fact that Meowth stated that 11 episodes prior to the fight between Pikachu and Raichu.
 
" Its most popular characters coincidentally all peak at tier 4, with Mario, Link, Kirby, and Samus all being there, with the exception being Pikachu"

So much for that I guess. (Although this is outdated anyway with Link)
 
I'm curious how the scaling would go among them. If this scaling goes through we have:

10,000,000 Volt Pikachu > Guardian of Alola > Guzzlord > Pikachu > Tapu Koko > Zeraora(?) > Sivally(?) > Melmetal

And 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt has the AP to one-shot a 4-B like Nihilego and I think Guardian of Alola.

In terms of abilities, Pikachu can harden its tail with Iron Tail, multiply its speed drastically with Quick Attack and create various traps and obstacles with Electroweb. It can also use the Normal, Steel and Electric Z-moves, presuming Ash is there or Pikachu is allowed to use Z-Moves w/o Ash.

I sincerely doubt Pikachu can handle Mario or Composite Link, but he might have a shot at Samus and Kirby potentially. He might be the fastest of the five, when speed equalised...although Pikachu may also scale to Massively FTL+ due to Necrozma scaling.
 
Nah, after taking a look at Samus and Kirby's pages, he would be stomped by Kirby hard and Samus might lack the AP to handle Pikachu, although she seems to have really good hax at a glance.
 
The whole problem with the games not scaling is:

  • That is where the original feat that gave them 4-B came from
  • There is such a consistency in fighting Ultra Beasts throughout the game's Main Story [not sidequest] it's unprecedented how much legendary scaling is in Sun/Moon in comparison to the whole franchise.
  • A canon comparison that Champion Level trainers can fight Ultra Beasts [and we see Champions of high enough caliber scale > Ultra Beasts as seen with Battle Tree] , we see Hau fight Ultra Beasts after being named Champion , and we are obviously superior to him, who are shown in media to be not far behind Necrozma and able to keep up to a degree regardless of the race of Ultra Beast.
  • We have direct statements of Kahunas fighting Ultra Beasts in the Game alongside the Tapus, and even help the Tapus in question .
  • We literally fight Gladion throughout the whole game with Type Null and Sivally. He's consistently a rival, and if he is supposedly Ultra Beast level, the fact we can beat him so many times consecutively should prove the player character should scale to him.
  • The fact after Gladion we hold off all versions of Necrozma, back to back... Including Ultra Necrozma, who is a mandatory fight like every other Ultra Beast fight we have in the game prior to that, and you CAN'T CATCH HIM so that excuse is out the window
 
And, hell, if you just go based on Melmetal scaling we can conclusively state:

  • Pikachu finished off the Sivally that KO'd Melmetal (albeit it was heavily damaged)
  • Lycanroc weakened the Incineroar that stomped Melmetal
  • Torracat could tussle with near-peak Incineroar and defeated its weakened self when buffed up
  • Melmetal was stomped by Kukui's Incineroar
So we can already scale half of SM Ash's team to 4-B and Kukui's ace to 4-B based on that. Then you can easily scale Naganadel to 4-B for Tapu Koko and Guzzlord feats and Melmetal is already considered 4-B due to anime scaling which leaves only Rowlet as lacking feats, but even then it defeated the Braviary that knocked out Lycanroc so it most likely scales to 4-B as well.

As for Kukui:

  • Incineroar stomped Melmetal
  • Braviary KO'd the Lycanroc that could injure peak Incineroar
  • Lucario could fight and effect Guzzlord and Naganadel
  • Empoleon can injure Pikachu enough for Ash to switch it out
  • Venusaur defeated the Rowlet that could defeat Braviary
  • We don't know his 6th pokemon, but he can use Tapu Koko and activate Guardian of Alola
The only pokemon in Kukui's team with iffy 4-B scaling is Venusaur, but it would be strange for Kukui to randomly have a non 4-B among a team of 4-Bs.
 
Question, does the page for Melmetal reference a different battle with Silvally, or is it literally Ash's Melmetal against Gladion's Silvally that gets the page to 4-B in the first place?
 
I'm 90% it's Ash vs Gladion the one mentioned there. Have Melmetal even appeared on Special? Because if not, go back to the anime.
 
Im confused with Mewtwo, Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys tier. Mewtwo defeated Deoxys, ok, they are both 5-B. But Mega-Ray is likely 4-B, when he fought Deoxys
 
Bowser-us said:
Im confused with Mewtwo, Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys tier. Mewtwo defeated Deoxys, ok, they are both 5-B. But Mega-Ray is likely 4-B, when he fought Deoxys
Click to expand...
Apparantly he possibly scales to Mega Mewtwo, which doesn't make sense cause he was on par with Deoxys, who isn't comparable to Mega Mewtwo
 
Is that from the Hoopa movie? Why do we take the powerscaling there as legit?
 
GyroNutz said:
Is that from the Hoopa movie? Why do we take the powerscaling there as legit?
Click to expand...
If not (the movie is filled with outliers), than from whom does Mega-Ray scale? his profile says he's comparable to Mega Mewtwo, where did they fight each other?
 
Well, given Mewtwo and Rayquaza are comparable to each other because of Deoxys scaling, saying their Megas are comparable doesn't sound like a stretch. Also, Latios is a Legendary Mega and he doesn't scale.
 
Ionliosite said:
Well, given Mewtwo and Rayquaza are comparable to each other because of Deoxys scaling, saying their Megas are comparable doesn't sound like a stretch. Also, Latios is a Legendary Mega and he doesn't scale.
Click to expand...
How are Mewtwo and Rayquaza comparable to each other? I don't remember them ever interacting
 
Mickey1940 said:
Ionliosite said:
Well, given Mewtwo and Rayquaza are comparable to each other because of Deoxys scaling, saying their Megas are comparable doesn't sound like a stretch. Also, Latios is a Legendary Mega and he doesn't scale.
Click to expand...
How are Mewtwo and Rayquaza comparable to each other? I don't remember them ever interacting
Click to expand...
Base Rayquaza fought on par with Deoxys in Destiny Deoxys.
 
How are Mewtwo and Rayquaza comparable to each other? I don't remember them ever interacting

They haven't interacted, but both fought Deoxys.
 
I know. Base Mewtwo and Mega Rayquaza fought Deozys and both fights ended up with them gaining the upper hand on Deoxys, therefore Base Mewtwo is comparable to Mega Rayquaza. Mega Mewtwo is vastly superior to Base Mewtwo, which would make Mega Mewtwo far stronger than Mega Rayquaza
 
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