Igniting the Genshin scaling chain

[Giannysmag]

Oh, well my apologies then, I seemingly mistaken it for another discussion.

Anyone interested can read from here:

fixing genshin tiering so people can stop asking why tf is alhaitham 4-A

So...these crts happened And the former absolutely annihilated how chainscaling looks and its honestly so bad so i will start with that First i will dip my arguments as to why 4-A should be removed entirely, then i will argue which characters should have justification changed and their tier 4...

vsbattles.com

That was only said for the Serernitea Pot, not the Realm of Clouds.

We treat the Serenitea Pot and the Realm of Clouds as having been created through sub space creation, so there isn't any reason to assume the two realms are fundementaly different unless you think that the Adepti creating the latter through a completely seperate realm creation ability that is never mentioned in the lore

You and Gianny were the masterminds behind the 7-A rating for absolutely everyone (even mfking Amber), not me

Admitedly I am not free of sin, I was a big proponent of making everyone 7-A but it would be a lot easier to fix that up if we don't have the person perfofming the 7-A feat at Tier 4, especially since it's probably gonna take a while to fix up the scaling

Edit: There's more to the first part mb.

Perhaps it is the same technique, but only the Serenitea Pot was said to have been minimised and not be a real world

Just because it's only stated for the pot wouldn't mean it doesn't apply to the Realm of Clouds as well since as far as we know they where created through the same means

Not to mention that the Serenitea Pot is accessed through an actual teapot and Realm of Clouds is a domain accessed through portal gates.

The only lore info we have on domains is that they are ancient ruin buried in the ground, so the realm is still contained within something physical (in this case the ground rather and domains walls rather than a teapot), so again this doesn't make it fundementally different from the Pot

 

[GarrixianXD]

We treat the Serenitea Pot and the Realm of Clouds as having been created through sub space creation, so there isn't any reason to assume the two realms are fundementaly different unless you think that the Adepti creating the latter through a completely seperate realm creation ability that is never mentioned in the lore

Now knowing you're an actual JJK fan, I can't really take you seriously anymore.

I use the same cooking technique and methods, does it mean all my dishes are equally the same thing, in taste, or even magnitude? No.

 

[Giannysmag]

Now knowing you're an actual JJK fan, I can't really take you seriously anymore.

Did you just learn I'm a JJK fan lmao?

I use the same cooking technique and methods, does it mean all my dishes are equally the same thing, in taste, or even magnitude? No.

Bad anology, we aren't taking about the realms having superficial differences like appearnce or even size, we are talking about the fundemental nature of the realms themselves. The Serenitea Pot is stated to not be a true world which makes sense subspace creation, which is what both of these realms are created through, uses the power of imagination. You need to prove that Realm of Clouds is exempt from this and is an actual physical realm

 

[GarrixianXD]

My argument takes clear priority, you're the one who needs to prove how that is even a fundamental nature to begin with, so the burden of proof would be rather on you. The Serenitea Pot was only said to be not real because of its size, the only realm that was stated to be minimised. The Sea Gazer Abode's quest takes place after the Serenitea Pot was in the game, and no similar statements were given to it.

 

[Giannysmag]

The Serenitea Pot was only said to be not real because of its size,

It's the other way around actually

Tubby: He said that even though Sub-Space Creation is a product of adeptal power, even that has its limits.
Tubby: This world is not a true one, after all.

The realm has it's size limits because it is not a true world, which supports my point

The Sea Gazer Abode's quest takes place after the Serenitea Pot was in the game, and no similar statements were given to it.

It doesn't need to be mentioned every time an abode is shown, we can infer it

 

[Giannysmag]

Also you still haven't explained how subspace creation is part of the UES. It's an Adeptal Art sure but it uses the power of imagination, nowhere in the process is elemental energy involved as far as we know

 

[EastofEden07]

Oh, well my apologies then, I seemingly mistaken it for another discussion.

Anyone interested can read from here:

fixing genshin tiering so people can stop asking why tf is alhaitham 4-A

So...these crts happened And the former absolutely annihilated how chainscaling looks and its honestly so bad so i will start with that First i will dip my arguments as to why 4-A should be removed entirely, then i will argue which characters should have justification changed and their tier 4...

vsbattles.com

Tubby: He said that even though Sub-Space Creation is a product of adeptal power, even that has its limits.
Tubby: This world is not a true one, after all. It provides merely a moment of brief respite from the mortal realm, not a means of escaping it entirely.

These two sentences are connected. The above mentions that the creation of the subspace has limits, and the following describes why the creation of the subspace has limits. The limits mentioned here are the limits of "subspace creation" rather than the limits of "Serenitea Pot creation''. Since the realm of cloud also belongs to the subspace, it is included (unless you can prove that this sentence refers specifically to the creation of Serenitea Pot or that the realm of cloud is not included)
Btw,even if you can prove that the subspace is the true world, the text we have so far shows that the creation of the subspace did not use any elemental power but used the power of imagination. This seems more like a Hax than a feat for scaling.

 

[EastofEden07]

bump

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

There's also a line that Tubby says;

Tubby: Hmm... I doubt it. A golden-eyed adeptus explained this to me at some point in the past.
Tubby: He said that even though Sub-Space Creation is a product of adeptal power, even that has its limits.

So the mention of the subspace's limits predates the creation of the Serenitea Pot.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I terribly do not like classifying stuff based on such shaky and borderline disconnected assumptions, not to mention it seems like none of you even remotely have the habit of indexing your scans at all. Thankfully, I'm knowledgeable on the verse and know where the shit is coming from; it's a burden, but whatever.

Delving into the context itself, it seems like it was implied that you can't create a city using Sub-space Creation in a general sense due to its limited potency, which really has no relevance for the Realm of Clouds being the same shit as the Serenitea Pot anyways. Though I held regards initially that the Realm of Clouds and certain other abodes, that is evidently different than that from the Serenitea Pot, weren't created using Sub-space Creation, eh, Elemental Manipulation already established as all those realms being created using the same technique (don't make fun of me, I completely make the page myself), I'll cut the 4-C part out then.

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

I was wondering why the other CRT had gone silent (which has over 400 messages) so I went onto this one, because I had addressed the Realm of Clouds for it's lack of context. The RoC was apparently 4-C for having a sun, but that's also applied in the Serenitea Pot's Floating Abode which also has a sun. Even Shenhe stated that certain aspects of other abodes were not real.

 

[EastofEden07]

I was wondering why the other CRT had gone silent (which has over 400 messages) so I went onto this one, because I had addressed the Realm of Clouds for it's lack of context. The RoC was apparently 4-C for having a sun, but that's also applied in the Serenitea Pot's Floating Abode which also has a sun. Even Shenhe stated that certain aspects of other abodes were not real.

So... this dialogue implies that the creations in the subspace may not be real (trees and rocks are not complete, clouds are not real clouds, and although there is no obvious hint, the same is probably true for the sun)
So far, I am very opposed to using subspace for powerscaling(maybe we should create a new thread to discuss this in detail)

 

[Puppet43]

it seems like none of you even remotely have the habit of indexing your scans at all

My man , you litterally put "Yae miko claims she could make Scara bow" just for the next AQ to say "i didnt stop him cause i was scared"

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

I don't understand why Yae Miko is considered 4-A, when she has no backing feats (despite claiming to be amongst the strongest of youkai), even Gorou didn't see any major issue with facing Yae Miko in a possible fight.

That justification of her being stronger than Misoki Chiyo doesn't hold any water when considering Chiyo lost to the Raiden Shogun.

 

[Giannysmag]

I don't understand why Yae Miko is considered 4-A, when she has no backing feats (despite claiming to be amongst the strongest of youkai), even Gorou didn't see any major issue with facing Yae Miko in a possible fight.

Nah Gorou is also 4-A trust

 

[GarrixianXD]

Get out of my thread if y'all are going to derail with irrelevant topics.

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

Shouldn't Yae Miko also be addressed here on the thread? Because you added her being 'possibly 4-A', despite having nothing in her AP suggesting she's on par with Ei. That was previously addressed about Xiao to Morax.

 

[Woomica]

with 4-C out, we should focus with 4-A stuff now

 

[GarrixianXD]

Discussing about Yae is fine. I was talking to Gianny and Puppet about the nonsense posts. Anyways, Yae is rating possibly 4-A; currently busy but I'll explain later.

Explanation: Anyway, I think the page made it clear, but if I need to reiterate then so be it. Yae was said to be one of the strongest Youkai, and also stated to be the most trusted friend of Raiden, even got her hands on her gnosis, which gave Scaramouche divine power that could rival archons. Her "possibly" scaling comes from Chiyo, who's also a Youkai, who fought Raiden; yeah, she ultimately lost but she survived the battle and fled, deeply wounded by not killed. If Chiyo couldn't scale to her then she would've been obliterated instantly with absolutely no chance of escape. Yae doesn't have direct scaling from Chiyo, but with the points I aforementioned, it's the reason why she has a "possibly 4-A" rating.

 

[InfinityTurtleHD]

Her "possibly" scaling comes from Chiyo, who's also a Youkai, who fought Raiden; yeah, she ultimately lost but she survived the battle and fled, deeply wounded by not killed. If Chiyo couldn't scale to her then she would've been obliterated instantly with absolutely no chance of escape.

Here's the problem with that. If even if Chiyo did survive, it does show she was still below Ei in terms of power and the battle doesn't go much into detail of the extent both combatants did in their battle, Given Ei sliced her sword-wielding arm off, Chiyo was presumably left unable to fight after that given there were later stories that mentioned had her killed by others lesser of power, implying she died later.

Keep in mind that Ei's instances of one-shotting her enemies (one of which was a god.) were due to the Musou no Hitotachi which in the description of Mask of the Kijin never mentions it being used in her battle with Chiyo, and even then that has been avoided by other characters such as Traveller by Thoma. Even without the Gnosis, Ei doesn't resort to using the technique every time she fights an opponent. Now she did state that Miko could dodge her attacks, but even then Miko's lack of combat related feats just make it too vague and ill-defined to suggest she'd fare better than Chiyo, since she resorted to giving Scaramouche the Gnosis, than putting up a fight. And as previously mentioned, Gorou had stated he could probably deal with her in a fight as compared to interacting her in normal life and the fact he mentions the latter as a weakness does reinforce the fact he is somewhat confident on taking her on combat wise.

I don't want to compare adepti and youkai in terms of power because how of diverse they are, but idea of Yae Miko having a tier higher than someone like Xiao (one of the strongest adepti) who is considerably far more experienced and a seasoned warrior due to being present in Archon War, despite her own lack of feats, just don't suggest she's high-God tier.

 

[Puppet43]

That justification of her being stronger than Misoki Chiyo

The statment implies to be talking in present "she is one of strongest yokai out there" , she shouldnt even scaler past yokais

Now she did state that Miko could dodge her attacks, but even then Miko's lack of combat related feats just make it too vague and ill-defined to suggest she'd fare better than Chiyo

Given the context of Yae and Ei, there no reason why she would go full speed/strength against her friend like she did with us, ngl

even got her hands on her gnosis

Having the gnosis doesnt mean a thing, she had it and was scared of Scara, Gnosis Yae << Scara base

 

[EastofEden07]

this description, when the All-Devouring Narwhall swallowed, absorbed and extinguished countless stars and eventually the endless sea of stars. It is said that those starry skies take resemblance to that of a galaxy,

From what I have found, this is most likely flowery language.Description here is mentioned that the Narwhal took 100 years to wipe out all life on the surface of the earth. This feat is obviously lower than Tier 4-B, not to mention that this feat was performed by the Narwhal after drinking all the amniotic fluid. Neuvl and Traveler have no evidence to prove that they can scaling to this feat.This and this combined with the Prophecy of Fontaine, the way the narwhal wiped out all life on the surface of the earth was most likely to achieve its goal by flooding the surface.

1. Neuvillette, Skirk and the All-Devouring Narwhal will keep their 4-A tiering, but the feat that they'll scale to will be changed for a few characters. Fontaine Traveller will be downgraded to 7-A while only being at most 4-A via being bestowed a partial power of the ancient dragons by Neuvillette; it wouldn't be coherent to assume Traveller to be able to fight against the Narwhall in his base form while being explicitly said to require the power of the ancient dragons.

Based on my arguments, I think that the 4-A rating should be revoked.

 

[GarrixianXD]

From what I have found, this is most likely flowery language.Description here is mentioned that the Narwhal took 100 years to wipe out all life on the surface of the earth. This feat is obviously lower than Tier 4-B, not to mention that this feat was performed by the Narwhal after drinking all the amniotic fluid. Neuvl and Traveler have no evidence to prove that they can scaling to this feat.This and this combined with the Prophecy of Fontaine, the way the narwhal wiped out all life on the surface of the earth was most likely to achieve its goal by flooding the surface.

Based on my arguments, I think that the 4-A rating should be revoked.

All of that refers to the Primordial Sea, which is the Sea with special properties that is under Fontaine. The Narwhal was absorbing and harnessing the energy of the Primordial Sea, not actually swallowing it; yeah sure, you're going to argue that the scans are going to say otherwise but it should be noted that these are all information from World Quests and random legends by ordinary people, which obviously doesn't have accuracy that'll top the archon quests. We directly fought the Narwhal, and it was explicitly said he was absorbing the energy of the Primordial Sea, not trying to swallow it or whatever.

 

[Puppet43]

are all information from World Quests and random legends by ordinary people,

The narz ordo was litterally calculating the Fontaine Flood, he was accurate except for the intermision of Traveler, those aint random people

 

[EastofEden07]

The Narwhal was absorbing and harnessing the energy of the Primordial Sea, not actually swallowing it

Maybe I expressed it wrongly. My guess is that maybe absorbing the amniotic fluid and absorbing the energy of the primordial sea are two different things (or maybe the so-called absorbing the amniotic fluid is absorbing the energy of the primordial sea).

you're going to argue that the scans are going to say otherwise but it should be noted that these are all information from World Quests and random legends by ordinary people, which obviously doesn't have accuracy that'll top the archon quests.

I've never heard of lore and description accuracy being determined based on whether a quest is a side quest or a main quest. Shouldn't the accuracy of a description/lore be determined by the persuasiveness of its source and context?

We directly fought the Narwhal, and it was explicitly said he was absorbing the energy of the Primordial Sea, not trying to swallow it or whatever.

The key point here is that the narwhal defeated by Traveler and Neuvl had been stripped of a lot of its primordial sea energy. At that time, Neuvl target the narwhal's weakness (the primordial sea energy in its body). If Neuvl didn't authority restored, he would not be able to fight against Narwhal.(But even so, his base form is still scaled to 4-A, which is where I object)

 

[EastofEden07]

bump

 

[GarrixianXD]

Maybe I expressed it wrongly. My guess is that maybe absorbing the amniotic fluid and absorbing the energy of the primordial sea are two different things (or maybe the so-called absorbing the amniotic fluid is absorbing the energy of the primordial sea).

I've never heard of lore and description accuracy being determined based on whether a quest is a side quest or a main quest. Shouldn't the accuracy of a description/lore be determined by the persuasiveness of its source and context?

Exactly. We fought the Narwhal and witnessed the Narwhal harnessing and absorbing the power of the Primordial Sea; our experience from the Traveller's POV and what happened in the archon quests carries far more reliable information than that of World Quests. As to why, I mean... would you rather believe something you witnessed yourself or some popular legend you find online that's about the same event you witnessed, but with a slightly or noticeably different story? The Narwhal was the Prophecy of Fontaine and resided in the Primordial Sea for a very long time, if the so-called "amniotic fluid" isn't the Primordial Sea, what else could it be? Gotta connect the dots for lore-scattered franchises like Genshin Impact. With that said, since it is the Primordial Sea; Nevilluette even said he needed to separate the power of the Primordial Sea from the Narwhal so he could be defeated, it shouldn't be an anti-feat.

The key point here is that the narwhal defeated by Traveler and Neuvl had been stripped of a lot of its primordial sea energy. At that time, Neuvl target the narwhal's weakness (the primordial sea energy in its body). If Neuvl didn't authority restored, he would not be able to fight against Narwhal.(But even so, his base form is still scaled to 4-A, which is where I object)

Hmm... was it implied that the Narwhal was absorbing the amniotic fluid after its battle with the Traveller and Neuvillette? I mean, even so... its very unlikely it's talking about simple seas and oceans, as we literally saw the Narwhal get transmuted to a black hole-looking void substance by Skirk, and straight-up thrown into the Abyss. So even if the Narwhal was implied to have swallowed bodies of sea waters after its defeat by the Traveller, it would rather contradict the lore and main storyline nonetheless.

 

[Puppet43]

you witnessed yourself or some popular legend you find online that's about the same event you witnessed, but with a slightly or noticeably different story?

You mean the bro who was 100 % accurate on his research about the Fontaine Flood and only fail because of Traveler?

 

[GarrixianXD]

The thing is we literally saw what occurred. Either he's referring to something else in a flowery way or its a contradiction; more so the former. Also, even if the Narwhal really were actually drinking the Primordial Sea water, his taking 100 years to do so wouldn't be an anti-feat since it is a source of divine power and could take an exceptionally long time to absorb the source.

 

[Woomica]

The thing is we literally saw what occurred. Either he's referring to something else in a flowery way or its a contradiction; more so the former. Also, even if the Narwhal really were actually drinking the Primordial Sea water, his taking 100 years to do so wouldn't be an anti-feat since it is a source of divine power and could take an exceptionally long time to absorb the source.

Primoridal sea is not source of divine power, but source of most teyvats life, also arguing about primordial sea is pointless since thats done via absorption not by pure AP feat like you mentioned abt whale

 

[Giannysmag]

What does any of what's being discussed rn have to do with the 4-A rating?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Primoridal sea is not source of divine power, but source of most teyvats life, also arguing about primordial sea is pointless since thats done via absorption not by pure AP feat like you mentioned abt whale

Neuvillette needed to separate the power of the Primordial Sea from the Narwhal even to defeat it in the first place. The Narwhal would absorb the power of the Primordial Sea, which does count as an AP and durability feat since you're straight-up absorbing energy; Genshin has a sufficient energy system to qualify this type of scaling. Though swallowing the water of the Primordial Sea might not be a demonstration of AP since the stomach of the Narwhal is a pocket dimension, and he can simply be pulling that liquid into another dimension -- however, that wouldn't disqualify tier 4, wouldn't it?

 

[Giannysmag]

Neuvillette needed to separate the power of the Primordial Sea from the Narwhal even to defeat it in the first place.

He needed to separate the Primordial Sea water because it allowed it constantly heal. It's AP didn't seem buffed at all considering even Childe could fight it for 40 days straight.

The Narwhal would absorb the power of the Primordial Sea, which counts as an AP and durability feat since you're straight-up absorbing energy. Though swallowing the water of the Primordial Sea might not be a demonstration of AP since the stomach of the Narwhal is a pocket dimension, and he can simply be pulling that liquid into another dimension -- however, that wouldn't disqualify tier 4, wouldn't it?

Why would absorbing the Primordial Sea even be a Tier 4 feat in the first place?

 

[Weaver261]

Here is another problem with Narwhal 4-A
In the description, it's stated as "things" meaning Narwhal isn't a single monster but a group of them as a specie.

It'd still be possible for 4-A if Narwhal alone extinguished countless stars overtime but with the existence of a group of them, it's not possible anymore. Moreover, as I and @Dog3352 stated before, Narwhal took some times consuming energy of primordial sea. Narwhal's size isn't even as big as the court room in fontaine. If Narwhal can truly devour everything into its stomach regardless of its size completely smaller than the target, it'd have already devoured the whole nation or the planet but it didn't do anything like that and went straight to the people. It is safe to assume Narwhal can only devour something it's smaller than its size.

I'll admit I've read the description wrong by assuming it took narwhal billion of years to devour countless stars. But it's not the case. Dog3352's explanation is quite good.

We don't know how long it tooks a group of Narwhals to devour countless stars. Thus, it's not possible for Narwhal alone to get 4-A

Narwhal size, Narwhal in the courtroom

How about this one, Garrianxd?

 

[GarrixianXD]

He needed to separate the Primordial Sea water because it allowed it constantly heal. It's AP didn't seem buffed at all considering even Childe could fight it for 40 days straight.

I don't recall regeneration was said to be an issue. When was it stated?

How about this one, Garrianxd?

I already addressed this type of argument before. The starry sky that was swallowed comes in the form of a galaxy, which is sufficiently enough for 4-A.

 

[Weaver261]

I already addressed this type of argument before. The starry sky that was swallowed comes in the form of a galaxy, which is sufficiently enough for 4-A.

I am not arguing about starry sky being galaxy or not. I'm talking about a group of narwhals doing the feat you claimed for one narwhal we fought. A group of narwhals' feat isn't th same as one narwhal's feat right?

 

[GarrixianXD]

I am not arguing about starry sky being galaxy or not. I'm talking about a group of narwhals doing the feat you claimed for one narwhal we fought. A group of narwhals' feat isn't th same as one narwhal's feat right?

4-A is a huge tier. Even up to millions of Narwhals trying to extinguish a galaxy can qualify for 4-A.

 

[Weaver261]

4-A is a huge tier. Even up to millions of Narwhals trying to extinguish a galaxy can qualify for 4-A.

So you mean you don't really need to destroy a whole galaxy but you can get 4-A by only contributing part of it? Shessh I didn't know that. 4-A feat doesn't need to destroy a galaxy after all - _ -

 

[Woomica]

So you mean you don't really need to destroy a whole galaxy but you can get 4-A by only contributing part of it? Shessh I didn't know that. 4-A feat doesn't need to destroy a galaxy after all - _ -

its called multi solar system for a reason, also galaxy can hold at least 3000+ solar systems according to googol which probably isnt best source but you know...just saying

 

[Giannysmag]

I don't recall regeneration was said to be an issue. When was it stated?

Nvm I was missremembering one of Neuvi's statements after him and Childe beat up the Narwhal. Still I don't think there is any implication it's AP is increasing, only it's Dura and size