Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions Part 2

[Assaltwaffle]

@Cal

I still disagree with Arceus' forms. Just because they can be separated from their physical avatars doesn't make them any less of an avatar. Dumping Type 9 and calling the Original Spirit another entity is pretty dubious, imo.

 

[Wokistan]

With regards to the whole "Arceus type 9 based on the OG spirit" thing, I feel like it seems sort of similar as Yog-Sothoth and the Nameless mist, which was recently decided to be a different interpretation/more primal perspective of the entity.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

I don't get what you're saying on the Immortality Type 4, but Immortality Type 9 should stay. The Original Story states, "In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos. At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg. Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One." The egg that Arceus would rise from literally states that an egg had appeared from pure chaos. As in, it emerged from it. I don't see why this isn't Immortality Type 9. If Arceus is The Original Spirit, what's the point in making the distinction between The Original Spirit and The Original One? Because they are separate entities with Arceus quite clearly being the manifestation for a form to interact with creation. It would make no sense for Arceus to have two aliases in the same story when The Original One is specifically supposed to be it and how it came to be.

Soul Manipulation Immunity SHOULD stay. Those things in Pokemon make one's self. Them making up an individual =/= Not being souls. Spirit is defined as, "the nonphysical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character; the soul." You hardly read my explanation or just didn't understand it. Your soul is what defines you. Spirit and soul are regarded as being synonymous with soul even being in spirit's definition. Also, there's the supporting evidence of Palkia's description as said before. It would make absolutely no sense for Palkia to have that description just because it lacked the emotion, willpower, and knowledge as opposed to actually being soulless.

Immeasurable speed was just me throwing stuff out for what the initial reasoning was. Unless Cal has a specific refute to this, I don't really have a problem with them being at Infinite in speed.

You are wrong about removing the Lake Trio's hax from Arceus. You ignore how they came from Arceus like the Creation Trio did as well. That's why I "assumed" you were wrong. Same with Telepathy Resistance since you ignored how it works on Dialga.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Inverted

This is the same argument as before.

We all know the story. The majority of people here still agree that the Original Spirit IS Arceus, and thus he doesn't get Type 9 from it.

Willpower, Emotions, and Knowledge just aren't souls. Your body could lack knowledge, emotion, and willpower yet the soul be uneffected, kindof like how some religions view late-stage alzheimer's disease. Until those three aspects are shown to be synonymous we can't assume them to be.

Many creators are unable to use their creations' abilities. Arceus creating the LT isn't proof that he can use their power. He probably can, but I don't think he has ever shown that he can.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So at the moment at the very least unless new evidence is brought seems like immeasurable speed will become infinite speed.

 

[Overlord775]

@Inverted
Many creators are unable to use their creations' abilities. Arceus creating the LT isn't proof that he can use their power. He probably can, but I don't think he has ever shown that he can.

the creation trio are literally chunck of Arceus's body with sentience

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

A 4-D omnipresent not being immeasurable is outright false, btw.

 

[Kepekley23]

He is only omnipresent inside his own realm, outside of it he is at most Infinite for moving freely inside the Distortion World and you have yet to prove him being Immeasurable at all

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Reading through this, i'll say this.

Idk about Palkia and Giratina but on DIalga's page it literally say's he's the time that makes up the multiverse. Why would he only be omnipresent inside his own realm if the former is true? And before anyone shoots it down for being time based, there's such a thing as Temporal Omnipresence .

>Spirit =/= Soul

I honestly still vehemently disagree with this. For one, souls didn't just magically appear in the multiverse when it was created. Something created it and there's absolutely no other basis to go off of other than the Lake Trio's description of creating spirit. Second, why are we automatically assuming they only brought forth the knowledge, willpower, and emotion aspects of it when it's much more logical to say they flat out created all souls, which includes knowledge, willpower and emotion in it? The latter's logic outshines the former.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Overlord

Where is this stated? Also are they still physically attached to Arceus? If not then just because they came from his body does not mean Arceus has their powers. However, I said LT, or Lake Trio, not CT.

@Cal

Dialga is omnipresent in his own realm alone and his physical self must time travel. He is infinite for being time, but being 4-D =/= transcending time itself and gaining Immeasurable speed.

I agree with Kep here.

@Prof

Nothing on Dialga's page says he is the multiverse. He helped create the multiverse, hence creation trio. It seems like Pokemon is confused over whether Dialga is the creator and master of time or if he literally is time. What scans indicate that Dialga is literally outright time in a conceptual way?

Also, you don't know that "souls didn't just magically appear". Souls in a lot of verses are just universally constant. No one needed to directly create them for them to exist and even the gods of the verse still have them. Arceus himself may have a soul since he has never been stated to lack one, unlike beings such as Chuck from Supernatural. Unless you have direct statements showing that you are soulless or totally predate souls I don't think you can just assume they don't have souls or else every single creator god lacks a soul and gains immunity to soul manipulation, which is absurd.

When does it say that they literally created souls? When Mesprit, Uxie, and Azelf arose, Emotion, Knowledge, and Willpower followed, respectively. The three aspects are what Pokemon identifies as spirit. This "spirit" is outright and probably different than literal souls. A ghost or disembodied soul can be absent of emotion, knowledge, and willpower, yet still exist. Just because the three aspects are not present in an individual does not mean that their souls cease to be, nor can we assume such until proven otherwise.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Um, Assault, if they are literal parts of Arceus's being, that does mean their powers came from him for they aren't just creations in this sense. And we have characters rated like that here already (examples were given before but I forgot them). And this is not only brought up the TheMightyRegular's blogs but also on different threads. I'll try and link them in a minute. And no, I was talking about the stuff thats on Dialga's page now. "Being the time that makes up the world". I was saying that if we list that for him, im confused on why he's only omnipresent in his realm.

Anyway, to the soul stuff, the problem is that Pokemon =/ = those verses and just because a lot of souls in verses are universally constant like that doesnt mean we can just slap that excuse on everytime we get something about creating souls and such. While I see where your coming from, its basically using "it's fiction" as an excuse. Besides, even with that, Arceus and the CT definitely didnt create spirit via the lore. Arceus created the 2 trios, who did the rest. The CT created matter. What does that leave us with? The LT and them making spirit. No one else but they would have been able to do this.

>Every creator god

Not every creator god is like Arceus and the CT, who come before existence. While obviously there's some, not all. A majority are huge false equivalancies.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, for your question on where it's stated they made souls, did you check their lore? The story of the god tier's origins?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just to help out, here's at least 2 not so old threads discussing and agreeing on the LT getting soul manip, with quotes and stuff from the lores included. There's likely more threads but im too busy to go on a witch hunt for them right now.

 

[Agnaa]

@Prof The point about the soul-stuff is twofold, but you've been going back and forth between the two when they've both been addressed.

"Spirit" and "souls" are often different things, the lake trio created "spirit" and not "souls". And secondly, souls can be a universal constant, so no-one needs to have created them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And since when are souls and spirits not literally the same thing? I have never seen them being different at all in all honesty.

That said, I messaged Azzy about it since he was one of the people who agreed with it being soul manip in the first place and he said he'll come by later to give his opinion. For now we'll have to wait.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Prof

Both of those threads are literally just "spirit = soul" while just assuming that they are synonymous despite any real evidence of that.

 

[Agnaa]

In pokemon, spirit means knowledge/will/emotion, as Cal and Assalt pointed out.

In other media, spirits can also mean ghosts and the like. Souls are an abstract metaphyiscal part of everyone's being. I see them being used as different things all the time.

 

[PaChi2]

Bump

 

[The_Causality]

Necro

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So err....I don't see how this is relevant to the conversation at hand? Target Audience doesn't change the arguments here. Also, no one is trying to downgrade the CT tier wise. They are already 2-B.

 

[PaChi2]

That wall of text is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Please dont derail the thread

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'm sorry, but I have to remove that post. It doesn't contribute and only serves to distract and derail.

If you want the transcript of the post for other reasons I can get it for you, but it doesn't belong here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Funny enough, I actually thought that was you for a sec Dragon lol

 

[Dragopentling]

So err....I don't see how this is relevant to the conversation at hand? Target Audience doesn't change the arguments here. Also, no one is trying to downgrade the CT tier wise. They are already 2-B.

I know, so I apologize...but I've said it already at the start, this is something I felt like I needed to get off my chest, and not easy to put into proper words, either. I mean, I guess it's my fault to assume that taking only a few of their abilities would knock them down a peg or two, because there's a lot of characters that lose their prowess by a lot when having even just one of their major capabilities taken away from them.

Also, the need to get it off my chest kinda goes back to me being disgruntled, to this day, by the PIS (plot-induced stupidity) committed in the 12th Pokemon movie, and possibly the 11th one as well. Like, if the writers wanted those Legendary Pokemon to really showcase their abilities, it would not be a case. The human villains would've been pretty much child's play to eliminate for them, but for the sake of the plot of the films, or even the manga series featuring those same Pokemon, they didn't....only a glimpse of it here and there, especially not a lot of stuff like Concept Manipulation.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So right now we need:

Proof that Dialga is immeasurable, not infinite

Proof that spirit = soul

Discussing if Arceus can use all the powers of the LT

 

[Dragopentling]

I'm sorry, but I have to remove that post. It doesn't contribute and only serves to distract and derail.
If you want the transcript of the post for other reasons I can get it for you, but it doesn't belong here.

if you thought this served as a distraction, then I apologize again, cause that was not my intent, and if you don't believe me, then I dunno what else to say. I honestly thought what I said might be something to help the thread, but apparently, based on the reactions, I misunderstood the entire conversation and aim of this thread at the end.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For the soul stuff, I did message Azzy about it since he was the one who agreed with it in the 1st place, and he said he'd come later so I reccomend we wait on him to see what he thinks for now

 

[Dragopentling]

So right now we need:
Proof that Dialga is immeasurable, not infinite

Proof that spirit = soul

Discussing if Arceus can use all the powers of the LT

Regarding the last part about Arceus...

There was a game event where you can have a gifted Arceus having the moves Roar of Time, Spacial Rend, and Shadow Force. Of course, we're not gonna use that as reference to determine whether or not it can use their powers. It'd be like the same thing with Darkrai, where at one point you can get one with Spacial Rend and Roar of Time...like ofc you can't just say Darkrai has the same level of Time and Space Manipulation that Dialga and Palkia would have just because of that and then the events in the Mystery Dungeon game or the 10th movie.

If Arceus CAN use all the powers of the legendary creation trio at the same level or higher, then there would be no need to create the primordial dragons in the first place, unless if Arceus was really quite the sloth. If Arceus can do everything that Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina did, and at the very same level, it'd be governing the whole PokeVerse by itself. Forget about the eternal slumber thing...according to its profile, Arceus's stamina is "likely limitless", hence I question the need for it to be in eternal sleep.

My take is that while he can do what the dragons could do, in terms of unique abilities, it is not to the same level or speciailization that any three of them can achieve, hence why he probably created them in the first place to have them use those abilities to shape the universe (he can also create another copy of them should one of them fall by the hands of a Trainer). As to why he still reigns over the three...it's because he governs the very thing that space, time, and antimatter are composed from: the concept of existence itself. Because of that, Arceus is pretty much the divine intervention that keeps the three in check.

 

[Overlord775]

@Drago

Arceus didn't move a finger when his kids were forced to obey a human's will and were obligated to re-shape the universe

Arceus is lazy

 

[Dragopentling]

@Drago
Arceus didn't move a finger when his kids were forced to obey a human's will and were obligated to re-shape the universe

Arceus is lazy

LOL ikr? That bugged me so much. I forgot to mention that part, too

 

[Assaltwaffle]

1 universe out of... well, countless... isn't much. if they nuke it whatever.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So besides needing proof that Dialga is immeasurable, not infinite, proof that spirit = soul and discussing if Arceus can use all the powers of the LT, i assume nothing else would need to be discussed after all that is cleared up?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

OK, so to my knowledge this where we are:

Conceptual Manipulation: Clarification - Accepted.

Void Manipulation: Removal - Accepted.

Immortality T4: Removal - Rejected.

Immortality T9: Removal - Accepted.

Soul Manipulation (Immunity for CT, Manip for LT): Removal - In-Progress.

Causality Manipulation: Removal - In-Progress? Seems like this one kinda just stopped.

"Spirit Destruction" for CT: Removal - Accepted.

Immeasurable Speed: Downgrade to Infinite - In-Progress.

Power Nullification (Arceus Only): Clarification (Removing piece from Destiny Tower) - Accepted.

Non-Corporeality: Clarification (Non-corp only applies to physical avatars) - Accepted.

Dream Manipulation (Arceus only): Removal - Semi-Accepted (Becomes "likely")

Use of All Moves (Arceus only): Removal - Accepted.

Resistance to Telepathy (Arceus only): Removal - Rejected.

Magnetism Manipulation (Arceus only): Removal - In-Progress? (Cal left this one after saying "we can't make magnets" even though if you give us the tools we can absolutely make magnets)

Darkness Manipulation (Arceus only): Removal - Accepted.

Mind, Will, Emotion Manipulation (Arceus only): Removal - In-Progress.

Law Manipulation (Arceus only): Removal - Accepted.

Physics Manipulation (Arceus+Giratina): Removal - Rejected.

Power Mimicry/Absorption (Arceus only): Removal - Rejected.

Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment (Arceus only): Removal - Accepted.

Attacks Incorporeals (Arceus only): Removal - Changed to attack selectably intangible beings.

Resistance to Power Mimicry (Arceus only): Removal - Accepted.

Healing Negation (Palkia only): Downgrade to Low-Mid - Rejected.

Non-Corporeality (Giratina only): Removal from physical avatar - Changed to selectably intangibility

Resistance to Mind Manip (Giratina only): Removal - Accepted.

Power Nullification (Giratina only): Removal - Rejected.

Power Negation (Giratina only): Removal - Accepted.

Destroy things from the Distortion World (Giratina only): Clarification - Accepted (agreed to use an actual gif rather than Dialga just glowing randomly)

Power Mimicry (Mesprit only): Removal - Rejected (Needs to clarify that this comes to Copycat, though).

Reality Warping (LT): Removal - Accepted? (Said more evidence would be presented but it is never mentioned again)

Information Manipulation: Removal - Rejected (Needs to clarify the application, though).

I think that's everything that has been discussed so far. So to those who want a TLDR...

TLDR:

Clarifications: Conceptual Manipulation, Destroy things from the Distortion World, Non-Corporeality, Power Nullification for Arceus, Information Manipulation for Uxie, Attacking Incorporeals for Arceus, Non-Corporeality for Giratina's Avatar,

Accepted Removals: Void Manipulation, Immortality Type 9, "Spirit Destruction" for CT, Dream Manipulation for Arceus (Becomes "likely"), Use of All Moves for Arceus, Darkness Manipulation for Arceus, Law Manipulation for Arceus, Chaos Manipulation/Embodiment for Arceus, Resistance to Power Mimicry for Arceus, Resistance to Mind Manip for Giratina, Power Negation for Giratina, Reality Warping for Lake Trio (See above).

Rejected Removals: Immortality T4, Resistance to Telepathy for Arceus, Physics Manipulation for Arceus and Giratina, Power Nullification for Giratina, Power Mimicry for Mesprit.

In-Progress: Soul Manipulation, Immeasurable Speed, Arceus has the powers of the LT, Causality Manipulation (See above), Magnetism Manipulation for Arceus (See above).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Guessing this is a compilation of results from this thread and the last?

Either way, seems only a few more things need to be straightened out.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wait Accepted Removals means what was agreed to be removed right? And Rejected Removals means what was going to be removed but we rejected to let it stay?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Prof

Correct.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not going to say I disagree yet but what were the reasons in getting rid of the following:

-Arceus's Telepathy resistance

-Void Manipulation

-Use of all moves for Arceus

-Darkness Manipulation for Arceus

-Giratina's resistance to mind manip

-Mesprits Power Mimicry

Taking a little detour to this because I don't remember this being agreed on either. Or rather not remembering the reasoning.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Prof

1. Arceus' telepathy resistance is in the "rejected removals" pile, so it stays. My reasons were refuted. Basically the twins mindhaxed Dialga but couldn't do it to Arceus.

2. Void Manipulation in the context of the CT and Arceus is space-time destruction, rather than manipulation a void to erase something.

3. The evidence for using all moves was a plate being held up to Arceus and him using a move of that type. Nothing proves he can use all moves from that.

4. Darkness manip came from Punishment. Punishment, while being Dark Type, doesn't use darkness in the attack, but rather uses dark energy to strike an opponent more powerfully when it has been hurt.

5. Giratina was never hit by the Red Chains themselves, but just destroyed them. He was never attacked mentally like Dialga and Palkia were.

6. Mesprit learns Copycat, and that's pretty much power mimicry.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ah my fault then, I knew I was reading that wrong.

1, 6 are fine then. The other's i'll say something about.

2. IIRC, I thought Dialga and Palkia had space-time erasure already listed on their pages. It's made very clear they can destroy space-time to make areas of nothingness, most notably in the manga. I think it should either stay as Void Manip but explain that it's done only through destroying space-time or say space-time erasure that acts like void manipulation.

3. Actually thats not where the evidence comes from. Or rather thats not the only evidence there is. Im not sure if someone just didn't bring it up or whatever but it's confirmed in the god tier's lores that the powers of Pokemon are all shared to them from Arceus's plates. That should be the main evidence of this, not the former.

4. But isn't dark energy, well, darkness manip? Even so, did anyone bring up Arceus being a dark type via the Dread plate?

5. If the red chains won't give it to him, then Giratina should get the resistance from Sheena's telepathy. Giratina had to actually be calmed by Ash in order for her telepathy to actually work on it.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Btw, given that iirc every pokemon is a piece of the original spirit and Arceus is the original spirit, doesn't that mean he gets their abilities?