Pokemon: God Tiers Ability Revisions Part 2

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We never claimed that.

 

[Wokistan]

You'd basically have to be 2-B Guts for that to become relevant though. Pretty sure anyone in 2-B who could otherwise have a fair match can destroy concepts.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Dragon & @Wok. Except that's exactly what type 9 is. The only difference between Arceus and other omnipresents is that Arceus often uses a physical form, which is why Arceus has Type 9 while say, the conceptual Khorne doesn't.

@Wok only. So...just Warhammer then.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Tbh i'm uncertain about why Arceus having a 2-B sized consciousness would give him type 9 to begin with.
It isn't some kind of higher plane, and 4-D people encompassing universes/multiverses is pretty normal anyway.

 

[Wokistan]

Higher dimensional hax dudes also have no problem with that, and people have been putting Arceus against 2-As for some reason as of late.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Even before this thread was made, Arceus' immortality didn't protect him from 2-A destruction like Khorne's does. Also, because of hax.

In order to kill any omnipresent, you'd need to bust the Multiverse. Not many characters are willing or know to do that, especially if the person they're fignting seems to have a physical form.

 

[Kaltias]

In order to kill any omnipresent, you'd need to bust the Multiverse. Not many characters are willing or know to do that, especially if the person they're fignting seems to have a physical form.

Yes but that applies to everyone who is omnipresent across a multiverse, doesn't it? That's why i don't think that it's type 9 immortality. It would be more an abstract type 9 large size like Jas'

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I agree. Type 9 large size makes sense.

So, what else needs to be discussed here? This has gone on for so long.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If the spirit=soul issue is already solved? Then i think its just dialga's immeasurable speed, and Use of All Moves for Arceus.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think we're waiting on Azzy to talk about the spirit = soul part.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frankly, I think Dialga and co. should just be full on omnipresent in its true form. And I still think that they should have some type of existence separate from their bodies given Giratina's physical body is outright proven to be separate from his true self and Palkia's and Dialga's physical bodies exist separately from what they embody as well.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

So omnipresent in their true forms and infinite for their physical avatars?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm actually okay with that.

For Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, would they also have type 9 large size or would they actually finally be type 8 abstract immortals? Because it can be assumed with what I said above that they'll continue existing as long as what they embody do.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Wonderful, now all that we need to settle is spirit = soul, right?

 

[NeoZex6399]

I'm going to talk now about the spirit in the myths...

 

[PaChi2]

So every omnipresent ever should have type 9 immortality?

 

[Overlord775]

So every omnipresent ever should have type 9 immortality?

evey omnipresent that uses avatars should have type 9

 

[PaChi2]

I'm actually okay with that.

For Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, would they also have type 9 large size or would they actually finally be type 8 abstract immortals? Because it can be assumed with what I said above that they'll continue existing as long as what they embody do.

Create a separate thread for that.

 

[NeoZex6399]

>In Pokémon, spirit only means knowledge/will/emotio

Wrong, the term "Spirit" (except in the case of Cyrus) is synonymous of soul:

"Anyone who dares peer into its body to see its spectral ball of fire will have their spirit stolen away."

~Dusclops, Pkmn HG/SS

"A Pokémon that was formed by 108 spirits. It is bound to a fissure in an Odd Keystone."

~Spiritomb, Pkmn Diamond

"A Pokémon formed by the spirits of people and Pokémo. It loves damp, humid seasons."

~Drifloon, Pkmn Diamond

"These Pokémon arose from the spirits of people interred in graves in past ages. Each retains memories of its former life."

~Yamask, Pkmn White

"Being consumed in Chandelure's flame burns up the spirit, leaving the body behind."

~Chandelure, Pkmn White

"Apparently this Pokémon is born when a departed spirit inhabits a sword. It attaches itself to people and drinks their life force."

~Honedge, Pkmn X

"The antenna on its head captures radio waves from the world of spirits that command it to take people there."

~Dusknoir, Pkmn D/P

and...

"Ghost World (ÒéîÒüäÒüïÒüä - Spirit World)"

~(Mentioned for first time in Gen 4)


>Spirit and knowledge/will/emotion in the Myths

First, this is said about The Lake Trio and the Knowledge/Emotions and Willpower:

-Mesprit:

"Known as "The Being of Emotio." It taught humans the nobility of sorrow, pain, and joy." "When Mesprit flew, people learned the joy and sadness of living. It was the birth of emotions." "This Pokémon is said to have endowed the human heart with emotions, such as sorrow and joy." "When that Pokémon was bor, emotions bloomed among us, giving us joy and sorrow." "According to legend, the lake is home to the Pokémon said to be "The being of Emotio" "It is because of this Pokémon that people can experience sorrow and joy." -Azelf: "Known as "The Being of Willpower." It sleeps at the bottom of a lake to keep the world in balance." "When Azelf flew, people gained the determination to do things. It was the birth of willpower." "This Pokémon is said to have endowed humans with the determination needed to face any of life's difficulties." "When that Pokémon was bor, willpower bloomed among us, spurring us into action..." -Uxie: "Known as "The Being of Knowledge." It is said that it can wipe out the memory of those who see its eyes." "It is said that its emergence gave humans the intelligence to improve their quality of life." "When Uxie flew, people gained the ability to solve problems. It was the birth of knowledge." "According to some sources, this Pokémon provided people with the intelligence necessary to solve various problems." "When that Pokémon was born, intelligence bloomed among us, enriching our lives." Basically the central point is that the Lake Trio never created knowledge, emotions and willpower directly, but that these concepts were born as a result of the birth or existence of the Lake Trio. And now what is said about the Lake Trio and the spirit in the myths: "From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be." "One Plate read "Three beings were born to bind time and space." Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf. The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it." "Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One." "Three beings were born to bind time and space." "Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world." The spirit, unlike knowledge, willpower and emotions, was not created passively as a consequence of the birth of the Lake Trio, but the Lake Trio creates the spirit directly. and: "People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence. As I understand it, people and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness." Basically this quote reinforces how the emotions, knowledge and willpower (awareness) although related to the spirit aren't the same thing.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Neozex

You can basically throw out everything up top, since that isn't related. Spirit in the context of Dusknoir and the like obviously means soul, but that does not mean that spirit means soul in the context of the Lake Trio or creation myths.

But in the creation myth spirit doesn't look to be souls either. Souls don't shape the physical world, space, or time. Also even if it was soul, the CT gave soul to the world, which are Palkia and Dialga, so they still wouldn't be immune to soul manipulation.

Also this myth seems to lack Giratina. Is this from Platinum or Pearl/Diamond?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Assalt. All myths lack Giratina, regardless of if it was D, P, or Pt. Only info we get of the basilisk is from Cynthia and Cyrus. It's explicitly stated that Giratina was forgotten from history.

@PaChi. I agreed to Type 9 Large Size so the Type 9 immortality topic has been solved. About making a separate thread though, bringing up things that would add onto the profile isn't that off topic.

@Everyone. While I don't disagree with removing this, there's a flaw with one of the arguments of the Creation Trio and emotion/willpower/knowledge destruction. One of the arguments is that it voids the purpose of the Lake Trio if this was a thing. That argument is flawed, as just because the Creation Trio can purge the three from living beings in the universe, doesn't mean that they can mess with those three things in any other way. Meanwhile, the Lake Trio can manipulate it freely.

 

[BlackMageVi]

Question: Why does Dialga need to be beyond time to be immeasurable? Infinite speed doesn't mean you can travel through time. It only means you can go anywhere you desire in a single point in time. Immeasurable is a step beyond that, able to go anywhere throughout time as well. Arceus and Dialga should have that, right? The others, like Giratina and Palkia, I can understand being bumped down to infinite but I don't see why Arceus or Dialga should be.

Irrelevant speed is what we have "beyond time" as.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also even if it was soul, the CT gave soul to the world, which are Palkia and Dialga, so they still wouldn't be immune to soul manipulation.

Except nothing remotely proves this at all Assault. The CT gave to the world matter, not souls. And for shaping the world bit, that happens when both spirit and matter came together, not one of each.

Also, saying to throw out the top sounds more or less like an excuse. What proves that spirit in both context's are different? Especially the bit talking about people's spirits and not pokemons?

Not to mention, the lore of the LT actually contradicts Spirit just being knowledge, emotion and willpower. It's explicity stated that when these 3 rose, people and pokemon were given those 3 aspects, just as Neo provided. But wait, Spirit's supposed to mean Knowledge, Willpower and Emotion right? So when it was used to shape the world, everyone else should've gotten it already before those 3 flew for them. But they didn't. Both of these can't be true as they go against each other.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Cal

I still don't see Spirit destruction for Palkia and Dialga. Question: what was Cyrus' plan? He wanted to destroy the universe with the space-time Pokemon and make his own.

He doesn't want to selectively pick out the spirit of the existing world with the CT, but rather use their deatructive force to start it all over. The argument really doesn't hinge on the LT being superfluous.

@Blackmage

Being beyond conventional time is immeasurable. They aren't infinite because they can travel whenever; Dialga uses his time travel to pull that off. Their infinite feat isn't fighting in a shattered space-time continuum.

Irrelevant is being beyond dimensional space-time itself, which is out of the question here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@BlackMageVi. I highly doubt Arceus is changing where he is in speed.

@Assalt. Actually, one more qualm with the speed thing. Wouldn't Dialga have to be immeasurable in his avatar form to keep up with Giratina in the Distortion World, who's a 4-D omnipresent there?

Speaking of the Distortion World, since it's a void, (we do use it a so one of the examples after all), and Giratina embodies it, would that give Giratina Nonexistent Physiology?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Cal

The Distortion World is NOT a Void in any manner and Giratina is not nonexistent.

And no, Giratina's physical avatar is not omnipresent even in the Distortion World. Physical avatars would be totally pointless if they are 4-D omnipresent anywhere. Also that would make Dialga and Palkia's physical avatars 4-D omnipresent in the normal world, since they are time and space. They aren't that and neither is Giratina.

 

[Frantzy12]

How is the distortion world a void?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'd still like to see Azzy's opinion on the spirit = soul part, but for now I think the LT's soul manip can stay. That said, the LT gave the world itself spirit, and thus Palkia and Dialga also have it. So they still don't get immunity to it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, I've been meaning to get rid of the soul immunity from the god tiers sans Giratina. Especially considering how Arceus is called the ORIGINAL SPIRIT lol.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But wait, the CT came before the LT though. Plus, the LT's power has 0 effect on the entire CT.

How would they suddenly give those 3 (well 2 actually) souls?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

LT gave "spirit" to the world. If the universe IS Dialga/Palkia, they have spirit now even if they didn't have it before.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The Lake Trio are said to keep the world in balance, preventing any change in it.

"My name is Cyrus. I want to put an end to pointless strife and hostility. I am seeking the power to create the ideal world. Thus, I want you to answer. The world today can't change because the three Pokémon keep it in balance. Is that what you are saying?"

Idk if that justifies the reality warping or not.

 

[Overlord775]

Pakia and Dialga existed fine without a soul, so even if they have gained one, they don't need it to survive

 

[Agnaa]

Couldn't they still have their soul manipulated, and have that effect/harm them, they'd just be immune to destruction/removal of their soul?

 

[NeoZex6399]

But the Creation Trio has no spirit, the quote about the Lake Trio ("they gave spirit to the world") is not so literal, it just means that now in the reality the spirits exist, also the myths emphasize how the Lake Trio were the first three living things of existence.

And "Three beings were bor to bind time and space" is not about the spirit, but rather about the main powers of the Lake Trio and why they can control a one member of CT.

Also the term "physical world" is never used in myths, only the word "world", which is more a reference to all the creation.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think it may be best to wait for Cal to come back from his cruise. I know he will be leaving for that shortly.

Unless of course he thinks this will be completed by that point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Speaking of me, I was looking online and I found some interesting interviews from Masuda on Giratina. Apparently, when he was conceptualized (no pun intended), relativity and E=MC^2 were thrown around and had to do with him. He's called a paradox of time and space or something like that. And the relationship between the Distortion World and the Old World is tied with CP violation.

I'll provide the interview(s) in about two hours.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Alright.

 

[Udlmaster]

I keep seeing the example that if Dialga and Palkia are the Universe, and that the LT gave spirit to the Universe, then Dialga and Palkia would gain Soul, but then that would mean that LT has an effect on the CT, but this has been shown to be absolutely wrong, as in Platinum, we saw what happened when the LT tried to stop Dialga and Palkia, so why would them passively creating Souls affect Dialga and Palkia when them actively trying to affect Dialga and Palkia failed?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The LT are the direct answer to the CT. Not only do they forge the Red Chain, they also have the power to stop the creation of their new universe and free them of their mental bondage.