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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

After passing the creation story through several translations, there was never a mention of matter, it was "thing", substance as Masuda mentioned in an interview. It also means matter, but that was a secondary meaning, it's more referring to anything with substance, a form. I'm stressing this because the anti of substance is nothingness and not scientific anti matter

In PLA it goes like this

"Thing to two, heart to three"

Thing in Japanese can also mean substance, physical stuff. It's more alluding to anything with form.

Anti-thing opposite to substance = nothingness, formless. It is not the scientific anti matter being referred to. So I'm confused as to why Giratina has that on his profile. And the justification is poor as heck.. The rocks in the Distortion world are not made of scientific antimatter(who put that there anyway?)

More evidence to this is the fact that, Dialga dimension is filled with time, Palkia's is filled with space, but when was the last time it was mentioned Giratina's dimension is filled with Anti matter, as in scientific ?

What Arceus said is that it is a place of disorder( Chaos basically, but the translation was saying something entirely different, and I suspect the English version was going with Chaos as in nothingness but as usual, iffy translation.). Even the manga it was referred to as a world of chaos. Cyrus also called it Nothingness.

I did ask for help accurately translating it here so we just have to wait I guess. These are the kind of things that get lost during translation I guess
 
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"Ultima wants to redefine Irrelevant into a speed level for characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence, that transcend spacetime according to some standards (not closer specified which ones yet, I think). He then suggests that such spacetime transcending characters should be considered speed-wise superior to all levels of Immeasureable speed, even those that essentially have something equivalent to Tier 0 hierarchies of Immeasurable."



Hmmmph, Llama God gets more broken each year
 
Yemma670 said:
"Ultima wants to redefine Irrelevant into a speed level for characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence, that transcend spacetime according to some standards (not closer specified which ones yet, I think). He then suggests that such spacetime transcending characters should be considered speed-wise superior to all levels of Immeasureable speed, even those that essentially have something equivalent to Tier 0 hierarchies of Immeasurable."



Hmmmph, Llama God gets more broken each year
Click to expand...
maybe maybe
 
Yemma670 said:
"Ultima wants to redefine Irrelevant into a speed level for characters with Beyond-Dimensional Existence, that transcend spacetime according to some standards (not closer specified which ones yet, I think). He then suggests that such spacetime transcending characters should be considered speed-wise superior to all levels of Immeasureable speed, even those that essentially have something equivalent to Tier 0 hierarchies of Immeasurable."



Hmmmph, Llama God gets more broken each year
Click to expand...
Speed equalized in 102% of matches: Hold my beer
 
Anyway I'm working on the crt but I wanted to know if this roughly describes Arceus correctly, that is if the crt gets accepted and Giratina becomes the concept of that which does not exist. I'm asking a few questions in Q and A too

Character in question is one with the Primordial Chaos before existence.

He is the nothing from which everything and nothing comes from. Be it concepts, or any kind of systems, laws, etc

He's a nothing. And that nothing is a concept he created, which is embodied by a being in the verse(CM1). It also, predates and exists beyond/independent of the physical, metaphysical and non-existent aspects of everything.
 
Yemma670 said:
Character in question is one with the Primordial Chaos before existence.
Click to expand...
In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
Yemma670 said:
He is the nothing from which everything and nothing comes from. Be it concepts, or any kind of systems, laws, etc
Click to expand...
At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.Time started to spin. Space began to expand.From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...
Yemma670 said:
He's a nothing. And that nothing is a concept he created, which is embodied by a being in the verse(CM1).
Click to expand...
Kinda iffy about this one tbh
Edit: If Giratina becomes concept of nothing, then this one could be covered as well, maybe
Yemma670 said:
It also, predates and exists beyond/independent of the physical, metaphysical and non-existent aspects of everything.
Click to expand...
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...
Context: existed before physical (matter) and metaphysical (spirit/mind) aspects, as said before: Kinda iffy about non-existent one

Source: The Original Story
m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Sinnoh myths

m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.

At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make.Time started to spin. Space began to expand.From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...
Click to expand...
Proving Giratina is nothingness would take care of this. Although Arceus did refer to the origin forms of the CT as Primordial Chaos anyway. And they're manifestations of it, so he's still nothing anyway.
JustANormalPerson01 said:
Kinda iffy about this one tbh
Edit: If Giratina becomes concept of nothing, then this one could be covered as well, maybe
Click to expand...
Giratina is actually the concept of nothing. I looked through the games, and Executor_N0 blog. The only mention of antimatter was something the Japanese version never mentioned. The anti-matter, the English version said, makes it seem like anti matter in physics, but that is not what Masuda was going for. Its Masuda who made that clarification, he's the one we mainly derived that info from. And he explained it as a paradox of space and time. Space and time refers to matter(anything with substance basically). A paradox of substance is substance that does not exist. Which he further explained here and mentioned here. These are paradoxes. An existence that doesn't exist. Contradictions. That which exists but actually doesn't.
JustANormalPerson01 said:
The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...
Context: existed before physical (matter) and metaphysical (spirit/mind) aspects, as said before: Kinda iffy about non-existent one
Click to expand...
Yes, basically. If im able to prove Gira is nothing then Arceus won't be anything at all. Since he doesn't exist in any of those binaries. Nep type 2 as the DW(0) is the opposite to Existence(1) and supports it

He'd likely get some form of CM resistance for being nothing. Not sure about that tho.
 
The best order is probably to demonstrate that "matter" and "anti-matter" in the games represent "existence" and "non-existence" (NEP1 for Giratina) and are a duality (TD1 for Arceus). Then starting from this should be possible to obtain NEP2 for Arceus.
 
Yes, that's what I have in mind. I'd have to make the clarification on those first, then I'd work my way down.

The only arguement they have against it are two. And I have answers to that :

1. Anime Depiction: Anime contradicts the games and manga in almost every way, it's even seperated from the DW on bulba and no one treats it as the same as DW. Primary Canon>>>>>>>Any serious contradictions from secondary material

2. Rocks: The fact you're just a void doesn't mean you can't materialize things from nothing. In PLA, it's mentioned that Giratina can mould and shape whatever it is that is in the Distortion world, which is nothingness as I've clarified. Giratina would simply have void manipulation for materializing things from nothing
 
The only thing can I think of and which definitely isn't a LS feat, is Ash's Metapod using Harden and breaking Pinsir's horns
Other than that, there's Heracross and Vikavolt which are considered rivals to Pinsir and they might scale to this feat because of that
 
I've also been thinking of upgrading the 5-Bs to At least 5-B, likely 3-C, possibly High 3-A

This is cause a few reasons.
1. The old arguments for not backscaling suck this is because Deoxys, while it was defeated by Mega Rayquaza, it still managed to tank a few of its attacks and temporarily hold it back with its barrier
2. Anime Mewtwo was shown to be above Tapu Koko (Pikachu could fight and win against Koko but Mewtwo no-sold him with 0 effort)
 
This scaling stuff is one of the reasons why I don't deal with lower tier Pokémon.

You can work on that then. It seems reasonable enough
 
Yes. I also prefer the lower tier ones. The stuff involving the Legendaries is daunting, especially if it requires that I go & find manga to read just to understand the scaling chain.
Hopefully justifications have scans for such manga things, as well as archives of any relevant interviews & such.
 
Imaginym said:
Unrelatedly:
Click to expand...

I'm on mobile rn and I'd like to reply to the comment you left on my calc. Basically all Heracross has to do is grab the log with the horns and apply so much pressure at high speed that the pressure gets applied throughout the log kinda like how you can crack a cookie but, with enough force, leave cracks throughout it
 
INTRODUCTION
Before I begin. I want to clear up a couple of misunderstandings here. And that is in relation to the anime depiction of the Distortion World.
The anime depiction of the DW is entirely different from the games.
Even Bulbapedia has them in separate pages. You can compare them here and here. And it's agreed that by Pokémon Canon hierarchy, Primary Canon holds sway over anything else, so significant contradictions like these cannot be used against the primary canon. Here and Here.

Anti-Matter(Pokémon) ≠ Anti-Matter in Physics

Okay so generally we've been under the impression for many years that Giratina is the concept of anti matter, specifically anti matter in physics. Well, that's false. I'll be using the mainline games for this. There was only one instance, in the mainline games that "Anti-Matter" was ever mentioned, that's here. Truth? That was never mentioned in Japanese translation.
The anti-matter the English version said, makes it seem like anti matter in physics, but that is not what it meant at all. Its Masuda who made that clarification on what that meant , the English version threw it in and never explained it, which is why we've never seen Giratina use irl anti matter ever in the series(Just Look at the justification of Anti matter manipulation on his profile) Back to Masuda. He clarified it as a paradox of space and time(the opposite universe, an anti-world, opposite world by the games). The Universe comprises two things: Substance(physical) and Spirit(Metaphysical), textbook definition of Existence . A paradox of existence is the state of existence which does not exist. Which he further explained here and mentioned here. These are paradoxes. An existence that doesn't exist. Contradictions. That which exists but actually doesn't. Those who ventured into it, didn't feel anything at all, and couldn't even interact with it. A place of nothingness. Even It's Avatars appear can't exist within the real world, appearing as shadows. Although it seems to be able manifest physical form, possibly with the help of the Griesious orb

Duality of The Pokémon World

In Pokémon, there are two different multiverses. The Pokémon reality(Existence) , and the Distortion world(Nonexistence) . The Distortion world is a strange place where the laws of the Pokémon reality doesn't apply, and has distorted laws of cause and effect. A place where the world's logic doesn't apply. Describe by Cyrus as like a DNA strand, where one can't exist without the other and they keep each other in balance. Both of the opposites. Which is what inspired Giratina's battle music. Opposing concepts. Life/death, Front/back.(source: https://www.ign.com/articles/2009/03/21/pokemon-creators-get-personal). Basically, the Pokémon world and DW is a Duality. The DW is the Chaos and nonexistence which supports the Order and Existence of the Real Multiverse. Which is why anyone who breaks the rules of the Pokémon world would be dragged into the Distortion world of chaos as punishment

Full Interview here btw

Conclusion 1
A. Giratina would have NEP Nature type 1, Aspect Type 1, 2 and 3. Material non-existence for being nonexistence itself and being the concept of Nothingness. It both exits, as is a reflection, and does not exists, as it's just a reflection. Giratina lacks spirit(mind and soul) , you see, the spirit is necessary for every living being (pokémon or human) to perceive the world, which is possible only thanks to the LT that bound Time and Space by means of the Red-chain. All of this doesn't exist in the Distortion World since that world doesn't need to be perceived by normal living beings. An explanation about this is contained in the Hiker's speech and from Cogita

Subjective Idealism in Pokemon?

It should also be clarified on his profile that anti-matter is not referring to the anti-matter in physics, but it describes his nature as a paradox of existence. Essentially, he's nothing and embodies the concept of Nothingness. Not antimatter in physics, but anti-existence, anti-reality, also known as Nothingness/Nonexistence. Opposite world, universe, existence, reality etc. Nothingness

B. Giratina should have void manipulation and Creation. It can materialize things out of the nothingness in the distortion world, as a puzzle to test the player

C. Chaos manipulation The Distortion world is a place of chaos. Where the rules of time and space change. The Pokémon world's logic doesn't apply there, which also applies to causality. Giratina has control over the forces of chaos over there, just as Dialga and Palkia have full control over their dimensions.

D. Giratina should have full Acausality type 4. The DW exists beyond the concepts of time and space, and runs on a different laws/systems, including the law of cause and effect of the Real world

NB: All these apply to its True Form(The DW) and not avatars. Sealed outside the multiverse because reasons

LLAMA History Lesson

As for Llama, he's more of a Non-Dual Existence really.

Literally Pure Awareness in NonDualism word for word

Well, we just wait for GF to say the magic words, then TD 2 is up

He had no cause for his existence, only an effect. He simply appeared. Encompasses the Multiverse yet simultaneously exists outside of it in its truest form and transcends it, including the concepts of time, space, matter, Spirit, and nonexistence, and all systems/laws/rules within them. These are merely extensions, products of his awareness.

A. Acausality type 4, possibly type 5, as the he exists beyond the multiverse, including the ordinary law of cause and effect of the Pokémon world, and the irregular (Acausal) one of the Distortion world. Time and space being merely extensions of him and certainly have no effect on his being as he doesn't need them for his existence(predates them all) . Certainly superior to the paradoxical Distortion World. And again, all these laws/systems/concepts are just extensions he doesn't need for himself. Which is why he exists outside of it. He's akin to a big house, and the everything in the Pokéverse are the furniture within them


B. TD 1 And NEP Nature Type 2, Aspect Type 1,2,3 and 4. Lacks any discernable existence nor nonexistence to be tied to reality or unreality as every concept that can be tied to some sort of existence is a concept that he's independent of and doesn't need to maintain his existence (Time, space, matter, spirit, Nonexistence). Exists beyond and transcends the duality of the Pokéverse in extension.

B. Immortality type 5. Neither exists nor doesn't exist. As the very concepts, of physical, metaphysical and non existent aspects of reality are seperate entities that have been conceptualized from his being. Including the Pokéverse and the DW world where life sparkles and Fades respectively

C. Resistances to CM. The only concept that existed before he came was Nothingness........ And it turns out that even that nothing is also merely an aspect of his being (Giratina)

NB: Nep, immortality and CM resistances only applies to true form, and not avatars.

C. List of Abilities For Arceus Profile

1. Fate Manipulation via upscaling from Jirachi.

2. Illusion Creation and Madness Manipulation type 3(replace type 2 with this) via upscaling from Hisuian Zoroark.

3. Passive unconventional resistances to to stats reduction( Reversing effects of stat manip via Contrary, Reflecting the effects of stat reduction via mirror armor)
 
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It's in tho....

Or are you suggesting I link scans for both DW and Reverse to indicate the stark difference between the two?
 
It seems ok. The only thing is that you should explain better why Giratina lacks mind and soul, which you could explain by the fact that the spirit is necessary for every living being (pokémon or human) to perceive the world, which is possible only thanks to the LT that bound Time and Space by means of the Red-chain. All of this doesn't exist in the Distorsion World since that world doesn't need to be perceived by normal living beings An explanation about this is contained in the Hiker's speech and from Cogita.

Instead, regarding this two scans, this and this, where do they come from? and the first, why is incomplete?

P.S. It's late so now I'll go to sleep. I'll read your answer tomorrow morning.

edit: typo
 
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Faron25 said:
It seems ok. The only thing is that you should explain better why Giratina lacks mind and soul, which you could explain by the fact that the spirit is necessary for every living being (pokémon or human) to perceive the world, which is possible only thanks to the LT that bound Time and Space by means of the Red-chain. All of this doesn't exist in the Distorsion World since that world doesn't need to be perceived by normal living beings An explanation about this is contained in the Hicker's speech and from Cogita.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'll include that
Faron25 said:
Instead, regarding this two scans, this and this, where do they come from? and the first, why is incomplete?
Click to expand...
For the first,Full interview here. For the second, it's from PLA text dump
Faron25 said:
P.S. It's late so now I'll go to sleep. I'll read your answer tomorrow morning.
Click to expand...
Not a problem.
 
Yemma670 said:
snip
Click to expand...
I'll have to be a little nitpicky. Not about the CRT itself, 'cause that looks good to me. But

1. It's "hiker" not "hicker"

2. For Giratina you wrote "NB: NEP applies to its avatar and not avatars". Should be "NB: NEP applies to its true form and not avatars". I also think the same holds true for llama avatars, as they have been conventionally interacted with, providing plenty of anti-feats for NEP.
 
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