-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)
- Thread starter Everything12
- Start date
- Status
- 40,446
- 12,914
Frankly the mere fact that they have avatars independent of one another, being formless and omnipresent in their true forms, and them already being conceptual beings prior to those revelations would've granted AE to anyone else.
No, I'm not going that route. Arceus forbid I go there.
No, I'm not going that route. Arceus forbid I go there.
- 26,308
- 3,111
@Sigurd
That's just ... option 2, not something different
@PaChi
YOUR INTEPRETATION of what the page says
and since there's clear evidence of the opposite in many profiles
Your interpretation is the one more likely to being wrong
That's just ... option 2, not something different
@PaChi
YOUR INTEPRETATION of what the page says
and since there's clear evidence of the opposite in many profiles
Your interpretation is the one more likely to being wrong
- 20,720
- 3,668
What interpretation. Lol
Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.
>Exist purely as an abstraction
>Descritpion/Deffinition.
From here we deduce that characters that exist purely as an abstraction follow the given description/deffinition. That is what the page says.
Therefore, if you dont follow the description, you are not a being that exists purely as an abstraction according to thr page
Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.
>Exist purely as an abstraction
>Descritpion/Deffinition.
From here we deduce that characters that exist purely as an abstraction follow the given description/deffinition. That is what the page says.
Therefore, if you dont follow the description, you are not a being that exists purely as an abstraction according to thr page
- 4,178
- 1,471
I think we should leave this topic aside, it seems that the problem lies a little in the descriptions of AE and conceptual manipulation, which are maybe too ambiguous and leave room for interpretation.
- 40,446
- 12,914
Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.
- 26,308
- 3,111
@PaChi
The CT does exists as purelly as an abtraction tho
The CT does exists as purelly as an abtraction tho
- 40,446
- 12,914
That...that's the point of the thread.
- 4,178
- 1,471
- 26,308
- 3,111
What is written there is clearly NOT what you are interpreting it as, since it says anyone that is purelly Abtract cannot be normallly harmed, not that you need to not be able to be harmed to be considered purelly Abtract
- 6,011
- 2,117
- 40,446
- 12,914
Because if we know that their true forms are literally time and space, and that their avatars exist independently from one another, let alone their true forms, and we know that making physical manifestations is nothing new for the G4 gods as it's confirmed that the llama did so, it's the logical conclusion. You're asking for spoon fed information.
- 26,308
- 3,111
- 4,178
- 1,471
I think the lake trio should at least be non-corporeal.
- 5,764
- 8,036
Either way I'm all for Type 1 AE and soul manipulation immunity, but yeah type 2 conceptual manipulation is a no-no for now... (who knows potential Gen 4 remakes might alleviate this?).
Unfortunately after reading this thread it seems a lack of acknowledgment of the nature of the Pokémon franchise as well as blatant game mechanics getting brought up seems to continue to haunt Pokémon CRTs.
Unfortunately after reading this thread it seems a lack of acknowledgment of the nature of the Pokémon franchise as well as blatant game mechanics getting brought up seems to continue to haunt Pokémon CRTs.
- 4,178
- 1,471
Tbh I thought the only requirement for having type 2 was to embody or control a concept prior to the world.
- 2,212
- 1,181
Abstract Existence Type 1
This is simple, as mentioned before the pair existed before Matter, thus their true selves have no physical or spiritual form. They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract.
Cannot be this logic applied to the Lake trio too?
This is simple, as mentioned before the pair existed before Matter, thus their true selves have no physical or spiritual form. They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract.
Cannot be this logic applied to the Lake trio too?
- 26,308
- 3,111
Probably, but the CRT for them will be for another time
- 3,635
- 257
Now you know exactly why Dragon Ball Vs Pokemon threads get hella outta hand....or at least part of the problem.The Axiom of Virgo said:
- 26,308
- 3,111
Soul and Matter are the only shown states of being in pokemon [other than data, but that's clearly not what the CT are], so them being the concept themself is the only thing they could really logically be.
also there's the fact that Giratina lacks of Concept of Time Space which shows the CT are concptual in nature and this one which show the non-physical Palkia/Dialga.
Also the LT, which the CT would scale to in nature, are explicidly stated to be abtract in nature
also there's the fact that Giratina lacks of Concept of Time Space which shows the CT are concptual in nature and this one which show the non-physical Palkia/Dialga.
Also the LT, which the CT would scale to in nature, are explicidly stated to be abtract in nature
- 6,987
- 4,253
- Thread starter
- #226
Because at the same time they are also the Space and Time of the Pokémon World, and without any Matter or Spirit their True Forms are likely to just be the Space and Time, which means you won't be able to harm them without harming those Concepts.
- 2,212
- 1,181
- 12,552
- 2,508
That doesn't mean other types of being don't exist, or that they have to be concepts since the only other being that exists purely as a concept is Arceus. Hell, several intangible Pokemon exist that aren't stated to be spiritual.
That's cool and all, but lacking concepts doesn't make you conceptual in nature.
The Lake Trio stuff is interesting though. That does seem to point to them being the concepts of spirits, but it's been shown before that they can be defeated/incapacitated via defeating their physical forms, which is a type 1 antifeat. Although didn't Dialga and Palkia create the Lake Trio? Wouldn't that give them a form of conceptual creation?
That's cool and all, but lacking concepts doesn't make you conceptual in nature.
The Lake Trio stuff is interesting though. That does seem to point to them being the concepts of spirits, but it's been shown before that they can be defeated/incapacitated via defeating their physical forms, which is a type 1 antifeat. Although didn't Dialga and Palkia create the Lake Trio? Wouldn't that give them a form of conceptual creation?
- 2,212
- 1,181
According The Original Story, arceus creates Lake Trio from itself too
- 3,046
- 2,598
@GyroNutz Lake Trio was Arceus creation, all of these two groups were created directly from Arceus's body.
- 6,987
- 4,253
- Thread starter
- #231
Arceus was the one who made them, as stated in the text in the OP, and the lacking Concept thing was to show that their was a Concept of Space and Time which based on how everything Space-Time related involves Palkia and Dialga and how it was Giratina their equal and opposite who has it, points towards Palkia and Dialga's Space and Time, which they are, being Conceptual in nature.
- 12,552
- 2,508
Right, I got it mixed up.JustANormalPerson01 said:
@Everything There is a concept of space and time, it doesn't have to be Dialga and Palkia though, they could simply govern space and time, which is heavily implied in pretty much everything to do with them.
- 15,332
- 7,559
> Giratina lacks concept of space and time
No, he doesn't. I have already talked about this in the past. The same link states space and time are distorted, so the context clearly goes against that interpretation. The word "concept" doesn't automatically translate into the abstract ideas themselves, it can also mean "notion", "feeling", etc.
No, he doesn't. I have already talked about this in the past. The same link states space and time are distorted, so the context clearly goes against that interpretation. The word "concept" doesn't automatically translate into the abstract ideas themselves, it can also mean "notion", "feeling", etc.
- 26,308
- 3,111
@Kep
It says the space and time around it is distorted, not that Giratina has distorted space-time
also in the Creation Trio context it clearly means the abtract kind of concept
@Gyro
There's no reason to assume Palkia and Dialga aren't said concepts of space and time
It says the space and time around it is distorted, not that Giratina has distorted space-time
also in the Creation Trio context it clearly means the abtract kind of concept
@Gyro
There's no reason to assume Palkia and Dialga aren't said concepts of space and time
- 4,178
- 1,471
@Gyro
The dex says that the lake trio (Mesprit) can operate without their body.
I also found this, I don't know if it's useful though...
"Lake Verity Ahead
According to legend, the lake is home
to the Pokémon said to be "The being of
Emotion"
It is because of this Pokémon that
people can experience sorrow and joy."
The dex says that the lake trio (Mesprit) can operate without their body.
I also found this, I don't know if it's useful though...
"Lake Verity Ahead
According to legend, the lake is home
to the Pokémon said to be "The being of
Emotion"
It is because of this Pokémon that
people can experience sorrow and joy."
- 15,332
- 7,559
> It says the space and time around it is distorted, not that Giratina has distorted space-time
You do realize the statement is talking about the Distortion World having no "concept" of space-time, right? Not Giratina.
You do realize the statement is talking about the Distortion World having no "concept" of space-time, right? Not Giratina.
- 12,552
- 2,508
They can operate without their body yes, but they can be defeated when their spirit is in their body, like in D/P/Pt and PMD.
Also could we get a multilingual member to give a full translation of that Giratina statement? Because the way its phrased on imgur, it seems like it is talking about Giratina.
Also could we get a multilingual member to give a full translation of that Giratina statement? Because the way its phrased on imgur, it seems like it is talking about Giratina.
- 9,278
- 3,267
Giratina '''is''' the Distortion world
- 5,764
- 8,036
Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the distortion world = Giratina?.Kepekley23 said:
EDiT: ninja'ed.
- 26,308
- 3,111
@Kep
"Twists spacetime, holds no concept of time or space, it is said to live in the reverse side of the world, "Distortion World", a legendary pokemon."
No, it's clearly referring to Giratina itself
"Twists spacetime, holds no concept of time or space, it is said to live in the reverse side of the world, "Distortion World", a legendary pokemon."
No, it's clearly referring to Giratina itself
- Status
Similar threads
