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I mean, the exact specifics of Conceptual Manipulation have always been a personal blind spot so I'm not entirely sure what to say. I'll wait for Cal, he's more knowledgeable on Pokemon than I am.
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Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)
- Thread starter Everything12
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- #365
Yes Soul Immunity has already been added to the profiles.
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I still disagree with abstract existence type 1. The evidence for it is circumstantial at best. The closest things are the stuff about the Lake Trio, who have several antifeats anyway, and the stuff about Primal Dialga getting directly affected by time becoming unstable, which doesn't necessarily prove type 1.
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How many agree and disagree? What's the count?
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I don't see why they shouldn't get Type 1 AE.
The multiverse didn't implode when Giratina dragged Dialga and Palkia in Distortion World
Maybe because they were avatars? Ofc they aren't the TRUE abstractions of space and time, but still are avatars of it, do BFRing them from the multiverse doesen't affect the True Forms at all
Dialga in MD died from paradox
Again, it was an avatar that was even confirmed to be far weaker than the main canon avatar, who said that avatars of an abstract being are bounded to it? There's no rule which said "if you're an abstract, all your avatars must have type 8/9 Immortality".
They just aren't bounded to the True Form and nothing more, all the Anti Feats are about the Avatars, not the True Forms, they are said to be concepts, Dialga in myths was literally reffered as the time itself, how that's not Type 1 AE?
The multiverse didn't implode when Giratina dragged Dialga and Palkia in Distortion World
Maybe because they were avatars? Ofc they aren't the TRUE abstractions of space and time, but still are avatars of it, do BFRing them from the multiverse doesen't affect the True Forms at all
Dialga in MD died from paradox
Again, it was an avatar that was even confirmed to be far weaker than the main canon avatar, who said that avatars of an abstract being are bounded to it? There's no rule which said "if you're an abstract, all your avatars must have type 8/9 Immortality".
They just aren't bounded to the True Form and nothing more, all the Anti Feats are about the Avatars, not the True Forms, they are said to be concepts, Dialga in myths was literally reffered as the time itself, how that's not Type 1 AE?
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StrymULTRA's case actually makes more sense than not. I get confused on exactly how much clarity and/or info is needed for some important abilities like that. Just my own hunch, but I fear there may have been inconsistent interpretations and/or judgments in the past with this from verse to verse, but never urgently addressed
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Since OP didn't listed the full myths to support Type 1 AE (wild that he still didn't that), I'll do that myself.
The Original One: "In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos. At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg. Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One. From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be. The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep.."
As you could see, they aren't called with the names of the Creation Trio, but with the names of the concepts themselves.
Pearl Pokédex about Dialga: "A Pokémon spoken of in legend. It is said that time began moving when DIALGA was bor."
Isn't that a coincidence? The Dex said that when Dialga born, the time moved, like said in the Original One. This heavly implies that Dialga IS the true concept of time itself.
Lake Trio's true forms are said to exists as the 3 parts of the spirit in all humans and Pokémo
Eterna City'ancient Statue:
1) "The first one says this:
The creation of DIALGA,
The giver of time...
In laughter, there is tears...
And, likewise it is with time.
The same time flows on.
For it is the blessing of DIALGA."
2) "The second one says this:
The birth of PALKIA.
The creator of parallel dimensions...
Alive, yet not alive...
Everything drifts in space...
To arrive in the same universe. It is the blessing of PALKIA."
Another proof of their born matching with the concepts they embody, implying again that they are the true concept themselves.
Definitely Type 1 AE
The Original One: "In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos. At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg. Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One. From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be. The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep.."
As you could see, they aren't called with the names of the Creation Trio, but with the names of the concepts themselves.
Pearl Pokédex about Dialga: "A Pokémon spoken of in legend. It is said that time began moving when DIALGA was bor."
Isn't that a coincidence? The Dex said that when Dialga born, the time moved, like said in the Original One. This heavly implies that Dialga IS the true concept of time itself.
Lake Trio's true forms are said to exists as the 3 parts of the spirit in all humans and Pokémo
Eterna City'ancient Statue:
1) "The first one says this:
The creation of DIALGA,
The giver of time...
In laughter, there is tears...
And, likewise it is with time.
The same time flows on.
For it is the blessing of DIALGA."
2) "The second one says this:
The birth of PALKIA.
The creator of parallel dimensions...
Alive, yet not alive...
Everything drifts in space...
To arrive in the same universe. It is the blessing of PALKIA."
Another proof of their born matching with the concepts they embody, implying again that they are the true concept themselves.
Definitely Type 1 AE
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I mean, what's being said right now is really not that different to what we were saying above. Literally any example of an anti-feat people are bringing up are showings of avatars, which we all seem to agree they have. Avatars aren't reflective of the true self for fairly obvious reasons, unless DC's New Gods in their archetype forms are Justice League level at best (which we all know why that would be inherently stupid). I really don't see why this isn't as straightforward as only applying it to their true forms which I guess with more quotes provided, they have been stated time and time again to have such heavy links to their concepts.
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Yeah but is kinda weird that no one posted the proofs of being them Type 1 AE, obv admins disagree with it
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^ThisPlozAlcachaz said:
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I do agree that using anti-feats by avatars when its true selves we're talking about doesn't seem correct. However-
@Styrm none of that is ae type 1 tho. All of what you presented is cosmic creation and having links with their concepts sure, but nothing that wouldn't be covered by type 2.
@Styrm none of that is ae type 1 tho. All of what you presented is cosmic creation and having links with their concepts sure, but nothing that wouldn't be covered by type 2.
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Hum, you know that they were created as the true concepts that shape reality right? It's heavily implied, they didn't create these concepts, but they are born as them, that's Type 1 AE
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That's a very generous interpertation though, almost all of them mention they were created alongside their respective aspect.
Only the first quote can be argued to be proof of type 1, but even then it would probably be ranked as type 2 in most verses.
I would go so far as to say that the Eterna statues in particular, contradict type 1 and 2. Both Palkia and Dialga were created by Arceus, but the statues state that Palkia created dimensions and Dialga gave us time, which means Dialga and Palkia created space and time when they were born, not that they are space and time.
Only the first quote can be argued to be proof of type 1, but even then it would probably be ranked as type 2 in most verses.
I would go so far as to say that the Eterna statues in particular, contradict type 1 and 2. Both Palkia and Dialga were created by Arceus, but the statues state that Palkia created dimensions and Dialga gave us time, which means Dialga and Palkia created space and time when they were born, not that they are space and time.
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I don't think I'd really agree with this part. Can you name any instances where they were just created with their aspect?
It should honestly be strong evidence for Type 1. When you look at the context of their natural forms shown to be non-physical with the coloration of their concepts in mind (purple is space and blue is time theme wise in Pokemon), the idea they are what caused their concepts to come into existence would suggest that they are the abstract ideas themsmelves.
Not really, Dialga giving us time would refer to its birth asserting it across the multiverse. I'd argue Palkia's case is likewise the same as it would effectively be the creator of parallel dimensions if it had a role to play in being the concept of space. That's not really much of a good counter for them not gaining the ability.
It should honestly be strong evidence for Type 1. When you look at the context of their natural forms shown to be non-physical with the coloration of their concepts in mind (purple is space and blue is time theme wise in Pokemon), the idea they are what caused their concepts to come into existence would suggest that they are the abstract ideas themsmelves.
Not really, Dialga giving us time would refer to its birth asserting it across the multiverse. I'd argue Palkia's case is likewise the same as it would effectively be the creator of parallel dimensions if it had a role to play in being the concept of space. That's not really much of a good counter for them not gaining the ability.
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You mean in other verses, when a concept and its embodiment are created at the same time?
For example, Rumors are only (Type 2, possibly 1) from a similar statement as they were the embodiments of rumors and born as rumors were created (though they're getting an update in the future from something else). They were also dependant on the rumors and only spread as far as the rumors did too.
I also think we've seen Dialga or Palkia explicitly severed from time or space? Think it was either Primal Dialga or them entering a space that lacked time / space (maybe the distortion realm)?
Again, those are generous interpretations, we don't get AE 1 out of giver of time and creator of dimensions, we get the opposite as a creation feat.
For example, Rumors are only (Type 2, possibly 1) from a similar statement as they were the embodiments of rumors and born as rumors were created (though they're getting an update in the future from something else). They were also dependant on the rumors and only spread as far as the rumors did too.
I also think we've seen Dialga or Palkia explicitly severed from time or space? Think it was either Primal Dialga or them entering a space that lacked time / space (maybe the distortion realm)?
Again, those are generous interpretations, we don't get AE 1 out of giver of time and creator of dimensions, we get the opposite as a creation feat.
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What part of "they are created as the concepts and not with the concepts" you don't get?
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No, it's not just that. Like I said before, their true forms in the Anime were depicted as being completely non-physical. The Original Story just saying they came into existence from them just means we can make the connection they likely are purely abstract. If that example has a possible Type 1 off just something that's similar to the Original Story statement and not including the non-physical stuff, I don't see why they can't get a "Possibly Type 1" at worst similarly.
They've not really had their connections cut off like that. Once again, the avatars are hardly reflective of the true forms at all.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying the Eterna City scriptures directly supported Abstract Existence Type 1, I was saying those aren't really going against the notion as they'd still be accurate under the idea they are the concepts themselves and those things came as a result of their existence.
They've not really had their connections cut off like that. Once again, the avatars are hardly reflective of the true forms at all.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying the Eterna City scriptures directly supported Abstract Existence Type 1, I was saying those aren't really going against the notion as they'd still be accurate under the idea they are the concepts themselves and those things came as a result of their existence.
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@Strym I don't get the part where they say explictly say "they are created as the concepts and not with the concepts" and its not just your headcanon forcefully shoved in there.
Directly quote "they are created as the concepts and not with the concepts" or chill.
@Ploz
I don't have any knowledge of that, mind linking it?
I never said they couldn't get a possibly type 1, I even used an example of a possibly type 1 when comparing it to the statements. My initial response to Strym, was quite frankly, him seeing absolutes from it, when a lot of it was his own assumptions.
Like I mentioned, I agreed with anti-feats not being used. However, if the avatars can exist without being connected to time or space directly, then its a clear showing that Dialga =/= time, as an avatar shouldn't be able to exist after being disconnected. Kinda like immortality type 8. Rather, at most embodies it. (Which would be consistent if their ability over time diminished or went away entirely).
Oh yeah, my bad then. Though I guess its still oriented at Strym.
Directly quote "they are created as the concepts and not with the concepts" or chill.
@Ploz
I don't have any knowledge of that, mind linking it?
I never said they couldn't get a possibly type 1, I even used an example of a possibly type 1 when comparing it to the statements. My initial response to Strym, was quite frankly, him seeing absolutes from it, when a lot of it was his own assumptions.
Like I mentioned, I agreed with anti-feats not being used. However, if the avatars can exist without being connected to time or space directly, then its a clear showing that Dialga =/= time, as an avatar shouldn't be able to exist after being disconnected. Kinda like immortality type 8. Rather, at most embodies it. (Which would be consistent if their ability over time diminished or went away entirely).
Oh yeah, my bad then. Though I guess its still oriented at Strym.
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I've alredy did, tell me how is not Type 1 AE instead of just saying "no is not"
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This might be unimportant and irrelevant to anything here but I thought I might post it anyway.
The way I see it, our world began when the spirit within people was born.
When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness about the world.
Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one.
People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence.
As I understand it, people and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness...
Skipping some parts that don't involve the Creation Trio in anyway
...Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...
That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space
This myth speaks about the Original Spirit in the Time before Arceus and its egg appeared, when their was nothing but the Chaos and the Original Spirit. As I said it might not bring anything new to the table, but I thought I might share it anyway because of how it talks about Dilaga and Time's creation.
Also Giratina's Anti-Matter is probably included in the Space and Time entwined parts its just that because of the whole Renegade Pokemon thing Game Freak leaves it out of pretty much all the myths that don't directly connect to Giratina.
Edit: I have a question. How does someone have Space and Time before Matter, and everything else, exists, what is the Space and Time that is inside the Original Spirit? "
The way I see it, our world began when the spirit within people was born.
When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness about the world.
Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one.
People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence.
As I understand it, people and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness...
Skipping some parts that don't involve the Creation Trio in anyway
...Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...
That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space
This myth speaks about the Original Spirit in the Time before Arceus and its egg appeared, when their was nothing but the Chaos and the Original Spirit. As I said it might not bring anything new to the table, but I thought I might share it anyway because of how it talks about Dilaga and Time's creation.
Also Giratina's Anti-Matter is probably included in the Space and Time entwined parts its just that because of the whole Renegade Pokemon thing Game Freak leaves it out of pretty much all the myths that don't directly connect to Giratina.
Edit: I have a question. How does someone have Space and Time before Matter, and everything else, exists, what is the Space and Time that is inside the Original Spirit? "
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I never really said that you claimed that, all I said is your example adds more merit to why they should have support for Type 1. Hence, that's why I said they should get "Possibly Type 1" at worst. Also, non-physical stuff.
I don't believe I understood your point initially, mb. Anyway, the only real "example" would be when Giratina sealed Dialga and Palkia in the Distortion World with their avatars. However, I would say that still isn't really much of an example to go against it. According to the Timeless Void Standards page, the Distortion World is only treated as being Type 2. It's not concretely timeless, only expressing debatable qualities. Given it's treated as being not truly aspatial or atemporal, then there really isn't another example that deconfirms what's being argued.
I don't believe I understood your point initially, mb. Anyway, the only real "example" would be when Giratina sealed Dialga and Palkia in the Distortion World with their avatars. However, I would say that still isn't really much of an example to go against it. According to the Timeless Void Standards page, the Distortion World is only treated as being Type 2. It's not concretely timeless, only expressing debatable qualities. Given it's treated as being not truly aspatial or atemporal, then there really isn't another example that deconfirms what's being argued.
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Whether the Distortion World is a Type 2 Void that still has Space-Time doesn't matter, as the Space and Time that Palkia and Dialga embody doesn't exist there regardless, and saying otherwise goes directly against the Lore of Pokemon.
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If they are the concepts themselves, that would entail all forms of it within the verse. How does it go against the lore? If you support the idea they're abstract as the OP, you should realize that it would automatically disqualify them from being Type 1 as well because their avatars have visited the Distortion World a few times. Dialga was also able to time loop in the Distortion World so...
Rose_of_Ragnarok
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So far, soulhax immunity. Which has already been applied.
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Looking at things, while the statements are enough for quite a few users to think that they are their Concepts and thus Abstract, most staff either disagree or are inconclusive, as they feel theirs not enough evidence that this is true and even some Anti-feats to show otherwise.
I think at this point it's best to close this thread, and if someone else feels they have evidence that was missed or can word the argument in a more convincing way they can make a new thread that isn't as cluttered.
I think at this point it's best to close this thread, and if someone else feels they have evidence that was missed or can word the argument in a more convincing way they can make a new thread that isn't as cluttered.
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