Pokémon Creation Mythos CRT (Type 2 Concepts inside)

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I don't see how any of this even proves type 2...

They appear to have the now removed type 3.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Or, maybe he doesn't want to. Suicune doesn't respawn while his daddy Ho-oh does.

No? The text of Arceus is defeated says the same thing: that Arceus vanished into thin air. And he does reappear every time you play the Azure Flute.

 

[PaChi2]

"daddy"

U assuming Ho-oH's gender? Cal?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I still don't get why they shouldn't get Type 1

 

[The_Causality]

Or, maybe he doesn't want to. Suicune doesn't respawn while his daddy Ho-oh does.

Okay, "he doesn't want to" is not a good reason from my point of view, it's more an excuse, so Dialga and Palkia reapear as much as you want even if you beat them like a pulpe everytime, i guess that mean they are *********?

And from my knowledge, you can't play more than one time the azure flute in the same game.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

People are mixing "non corporeality" with "abstract existence".

Abstract Logia's GG. On topic: I agree fully with Pachi and Kep.

 

[PaChi2]

Oi @OP I didnt say anything about conceptual type 2. I'm only here for AE.

 

[The_Causality]

@OP i didn't accepted nor denied Abstract Existence, i was only here for fun and debate about some (according to me) fallacious arguments, i don't care what is the consensus i've no longer interest about revised stuff in the wiki.

 

[Zeifyl]

I mean, Dialga can also time travel to a timeless place

'scuse me, when did this happen?

Also yes to soulhax immunity, unsure but leaning towards yes on AE, and no on Concept manip.

 

[Overlord775]

@Causality

Yes, because it never even happened, you can't call canon something that didn't even happen and was probably left unfinished too

And Giratina respawns if you beat the E4, i think

@Sirgurd

They are because they've shown to be formless masses of energy and directly stated to be conceptual in nature

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@overlord

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Do you have proof of the highlighted?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Don't you need to attack the CT's true Form to kill them? You can't kill them by attacking their Universal Avatars?

 

[PaChi2]

@overlord
Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

Do you have proof of the highlighted?

For the record, that is exactly what I have been asking for this entire time.

 

[The_Causality]

@Causality
Yes, because it never even happened, you can't call canon something that didn't even happen and was probably left unfinished too

And Giratina respawns if you beat the E4, i think

Hm, i got it i guess.

And yes, he appear after you defeat the Elite 4 the first time, after that, if you defeat him, he don't reaper anymore, even if you defeat the E4 again.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Uh, the two other parts are directly in support of what the CT do. A lot of Type 1s don't need the tidbit of the direct showing, just as long as they're inherently conceptual. Chaos Force beings have it like that for a reason.

 

[Overlord775]

@Sigurd and PaChi

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

This is the requirement

the other is what the state gives

 

[PaChi2]

The other is what the state is.

It is the description of how a Type 1 behaves.

 

[The_Causality]

Well, my final question on this thread is, what are the proofs of them being type 1 abstract? if someone can explain me, it could be cool.

 

[Overlord775]

No, it's what the state gives

"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. "

They only existing as abtraction, aka no body or soul to affect

"These characters lack a true physical form"

because they are just abtracts, no physical body, no true physical form

"affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself."

because their exists as just as an abtraction, so you need to hit the abtractions to be able to affect them

 

[PaChi2]

No.

Those are the requirements you must fill in order to be considered a type 1 abstract. It's the other way around.

 

[Overlord775]

it's not, nothing there says that it's a requirement

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

it is actually

 

[Overlord775]

@OP

BTW, i accept everything minus being neutral on the Type 2 Concepts since what fits as them seem to be subjective more than anything

 

[Overlord775]

it is actually

prove it then

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

it's on the page itself.

 

[NeoZex6399]

@Zeifyl

I don't think it's related to time travel, but you can catch Dialga here in ORAS.

 

[Overlord775]

it's on the page itself.

It doesn't, the only requirement is

"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction."

with the rest being the explanation of what that actually means, just like how it's for Type 2

"Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. "

where this is the requirement ^

"Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it. "

and this is the explanation ^

 

[PaChi2]

""Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction."

with the rest being the explanation of what that actually means, just like how it's for Type 2"

Then, logically speaking, if they dont fill the bill of what that actually means, they dont really exist purely as an abstraction.

 

[NeoZex6399]

About AE I will remain neutral, although in the games Dialga and Palkia are called or referenced as time and space, or beings of time and space, also Cyrus in the manga states that Dialga's heartbeat is the flow of time itself.

Also in the manga it is said that the lake trio is basically part of the spirit of every Pokemon trainer/human.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What Pachi said. Based on feats they can't even get type 2. Only the removed type 3 that isn't actually abstract existence similar to here.

 

[Overlord775]

@Sigurd and PaChi

This here shows the opposite

It shows them as both as naturally formless

And there's the fact they precede the creation matter and spirit, so they CAN'T have a true physical form nor a spiritual one

and the Creation Trio is explicidly stated to work on a conceptual nature as shown here

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

At this point, this is turning into whether AE T1 needs a revision, or much of the characters who have it need it removed.

 

[PaChi2]

You dont understand. We dont care if they are or are not abstractions, that is not what matters to have Abstract Existence, we care about them, as abstractions, behaving like the page says each type of abstraction behaves. Otherwise, they are abstractions but dont have Abstract Existence, because they never showed that power. Simple as that.

This is not even referring to Dialga and Palkia right now.

 

[The_Causality]

At this point, this is turning into whether AE T1 needs a revision, or much of the characters who have it need it removed.

Can you handle this? or do you want me to create the said thread?

EDIT: Ultimately, i don't really care so i'll decline my own offer (i'am too lazy to make a thread about it).

 

[Overlord775]

You dont understand. We dont care if they are or are not abstractions, that is not what matters to have Abstract Existence, we care about them, as abstractions, behaving like the page says each type of abstraction behaves. Otherwise, they are abstractions but dont have Abstract Existence, because they never showed that power. Simple as that.
This is not even referring to Dialga and Palkia right now.

Disembodied Thought says hi

Evilswarm says hi

Ishtar Astardes says hi

Lucetta Quetzl says hi

I can name many more too

all of them go against what you are saying

 

[PaChi2]

If they go against what I say, remove that ability as it isnt legit. Simple.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What'd I miss?

 

[Overlord775]

If they go against what I say, remove that ability as it isnt legit. Simple.

OOOOOR

you are simply wrong and your opinion is baseless

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So, again, 3 possibilities:

1.) Pachi is wrong, Overlord is right and the CT should have AE T1

2.) Overlord is wrong, Pachi is correct, the CT dont get AE T1 and the other characters who do have it need it removed from them as well

3.) AE T1 in general needs to be revised..

@Causality

You can make it if you want.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

or 4, they simply don't meet all the requierments.