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Pokémon: Arceus Low 1-C Revision

Dread said:
He actually made it very clear that if no one is willing to change the current justification, then the fact is to downgrade the current justification only refers to 2-A.
You disagree with the downgrade, but agree with changing the justification. Thanks for your time.

@Sniper670 Since you made the CRT for this, what is your suggestion for changing the justification?
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Well...... I got none, because there are none. As i explained, the way to low 1C is Heart, and it's vague/weak evidence. Which i wrote below

(Prior to the existence of anything, including even the concept of space and time, the Spirit was the Primordial Consciousness which contained within its mind, everything in an undivided state. Everything exists within the Spirit, and the world only expands as it enriches. This includes everything from the main multiverse to his Avatar's dimension which is located far outside the multiverse. Everything exists as inner workings within the Spirit, who is unlimited by the boundaries of time and space)

]
 
Sniper670 said:
Who is stonewalling.

Justification for Low 1C is trash

I'm asking for better justification or downgrade

And stop using Arceus dimension. Transcendence is meaningless and in this case there's neither a statement of transcendence of time and space neither is Arceus transcending anything make him 5D for obvious reasons

Pfft, even God of War has a better justification for Low 1C than llama
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And once again, all of this is circular arguments.

I’ve explained multiple times now on each point and clarified why the justifications are the way they are, why your points misinterpret the reasoning for the upgrade being passed and why the downgrade shouldn’t go through. If all your going to do is gloss over this and repeat the same arguments, that’s on you.
 
From a neutral perspective side, what exactly is misleading in the justification? Because the only part of justification I see which may count for low 1-C, is "God transcend everything" which many new visitors may find it name fallacy rather?
 
How is being called a "God that transcends everything" a naming fallacy? If new visitors think it is, that's quite frankly on them.

In addition, I was asleep for the past few hours, and Kukui and Everything have brought a lot more support. Doesn't really help that Sniper continuously goes "my knowledge of Arceus is top tier, so you have to listen to me" as if he's the sole piece of authority on the matter.
 
Everything12 said:
Disagree to this CRT, this was in fact not the reason the upgrade came about.

To put it simply, Arceus trivialised the whole Pokémon multiverse and Distortion World by an infinite degree as a all-encompassing diety and within in which all of space and time (and stuff outside space and time) are one, with the transcending statement only seeing as further supporting evidence to all this as is appropriate use for such statements.
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The only thing I would ask here is that maybe the justification for Low 1-C on his profile could be reworked in this case? Mainly so that people fully understand why he is rated that way.

Linking Executor's blog, for example, could help
 
As a Pokemon fan myself, I personally can see Kukui's reasonings for why Arceus should stay Low 1-C. Now don't get me wrong, you are right that transcendence isn't an automatic qualifier for something being a certain tier, but at the same time, he and Executer have some fair justifications for why Arceus' transcendence does. Plus let's face it, who the hell would oppose a statement straight from the horse's mouth? It would be impossible for that not to be true unless by a snowball's chance in hell Arceus is a compulsive liar.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
How is being called a "God that transcends everything" a naming fallacy? If new visitors think it is, that's quite frankly on them.

In addition, I was asleep for the past few hours, and Kukui and Everything have brought a lot more support. Doesn't really help that Sniper continuously goes "my knowledge of Arceus is top tier, so you have to listen to me" as if he's the sole piece of authority on the matter.
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Same thing that we did not accept Rimuru for being 5D for the same exact statement. Sorry but it is name fallacy and it could be written better.
 
Dread said:
Same thing that we did not accept Rimuru for being 5D for the same exact statement. Sorry but it is name fallacy and it could be written better.
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Not gonna lie, I highly doubt it was rejected for the same reason. Something being regarded as transcending everything is objectively not a name fallacy.

Also the fact that Arceus is stated to exist outside of the Pokemon cosmology, while not alone proof of trivializing it to this extent, helps prove it when taken in tandem with the statement of transcendence. It's why we take all the evidence presented as a collective instead of individually
 
Let's be real, it doesn't prove anything at all.

He's outside the multiverse


In fact let's stop using Arceus dimension as proof of anything

It is not a higher dimensional plane at all
 
Dread said:
Same thing that we did not accept Rimuru for being 5D for the same exact statement. Sorry but it is name fallacy and it could be written better.
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Agreed.

The exact same reason we didn't give GoW low 1C when Yggdrasil has explicit memtion of transcendence over space and time

What makes Arceus different.
 
Flashlight237 said:
As a Pokemon fan myself, I personally can see Kukui's reasonings for why Arceus should stay Low 1-C. Now don't get me wrong, you are right that transcendence isn't an automatic qualifier for something being a certain tier, but at the same time, he and Executer have some fair justifications for why Arceus' transcendence does. Plus let's face it, who the hell would oppose a statement straight from the horse's mouth? It would be impossible for that not to be true unless by a snowball's chance in hell Arceus is a compulsive liar.
Click to expand...
Arceus never said it transcends space and time. He said it is beyond space and time. Which can mean several things and....

Which Cogita mentioned was outside

Which Arceus mentioned was outside
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And once again, all of this is circular arguments.

I’ve explained multiple times now on each point and clarified why the justifications are the way they are, why your points misinterpret the reasoning for the upgrade being passed and why the downgrade shouldn’t go through. If all your going to do is gloss over this and repeat the same arguments, that’s on you.
Click to expand...
Look. I've gone over why what is on his profile sucks. And I brought GoW. Yeah sorry for bringing that but when a 2C has a better justification than you, you should know there's a problem with the profile
 
"transcendence" must have evidence that it implies qualitatively superiority, rather than being outside, travelling through or controlling it

REASONS WHY IT'S SIMPLY OUTSIDE

1. Cogita says it's outside.

2. Arceus says it's outside

3. Beginning of the game he mentioned his realm is beyond space and time, which can mean several things. In this case there's nothing like qualitative superiority here. It's simply outside the boundary of the multiverse.

So I'm asking, WHY are we imposing qualitiavive superiority when theres no evidence for it
 
I disagree with the downgrade. I think everyone else already explained why, so I wont waste time, but I will say that OP doesn't really give many reason to why it should be downgraded considering that the argument is just that it's vague, which is not, and uses another verse as justification when that verse's cosmology is very different from the Pokemon's one.

But I agree that the justification could be a lot better. When I have a bit of time I will try to put down a possible new justification to it's tiering.
 
Just wait for @Ultima_Reality to be free on 27 November and see what he thinks about all the evidence because at first glance this doesn't eerily look like "transcendent" statements are all what Arceus has going for him.

Not all cosmologies are the same, some have supporting statements, God of War didn't. Arceus IMHO seems to fall into the former portion.
 
I disagree as well given what Kukui said.

Also OP is not putting the JP raw text in the imgur albums, so I do not trust his translations either ngl.
 
KLOL506 said:
Just wait for @Ultima_Reality to be free on 27 November and see what he thinks about all the evidence because at first glance this doesn't eerily look like "transcendent" statements are all what Arceus has going for him.
Click to expand...
That's all there is to it. Just read the thread with people arguing with me that it means qualitative superiority when it's literally confirmed by the god himself it's outside.

The only thing here is the transcendence.

The multiverse is merely a part of it is not supported by the scans
KLOL506 said:
Not all cosmologies are the same, some have supporting statements, God of War didn't. Arceus IMHO seems to fall into the former portion.
Click to expand...
Let's get Ultima here. Then we see
 
Sniper670 said:
Lucky for you, my knowledge on Arceus is 10000%. Let's break it down shall we?


None of these is anything close to low 1C. Why is this even there?


We know that Arceus isn't a 5D being, so his transcendence over everything is more talking about his authority over all creation and not a qualitative difference. Everything being a part of him is true, and that scan is talking about the OS avatar. Realm beyond space time means his dimension is outside of it, and not a higher dimensional realm. The multiverse is literally an extension of the Pokémon Arceus, and he's definitely not 5D. Consciousness spreading across space and time is omnipresence, why is this even a justification?. Everything about Hoopa is nonsense because Hoopa didnt even attempt to access Arceus dimension, so why is this there?
Click to expand...
@ThanatosX i didn't explain?
 
Sniper670 said:
@ThanatosX i didn't explain?
Click to expand...
Yes, your explanation is not enough. If the entire multiverse is just a part of Arceus's being, then this alone is enough to justify his Tier 1 rating. Just look at Davoth, which is Low 1-C for a similiar reason. If I remember correctly, Arceus himself was used as an example for his tiering.
 
Hahaha

The scan says that Dialga and Palkia is part of Arceus = The multiverse is MERELY a part of it

Sometimes when I can't find anything to laugh at, I open Arceus profile and read his low 1C justification
 
Sniper670 said:
Take note. This is the scan that supports the claim

So you see why I want this downgrade so badly?

I'll ask again, bring a scan that supports the claim
Click to expand...
Yes, the scan should be enough. Palkia and Dialga are the incarnation of the space and the time of the entire Multiverse respectively.
If those two are just a part of him, it means that the Space-time of the entirety of the Pokemon's cosmology is only a part of Arceus' whole being.
This alone is more than enough to justify his tiering in my opinion. The multiple statements of him transcending space, time and all of existence just support this claim.
 
Given that Dialga and Palkia are LITERALLY the concept of space, time and directions on a multiversal scale, then yes?

Also you're just being petty for no reason, I am not debating with a child.
 
ThanatosX said:
Yes, the scan should be enough. Palkia and Dialga are the incarnation of the space and the time of the entire Multiverse respectively.
Click to expand...
They created Time and Space

So if I create two people to form time and space that means the entire multiverse is merely a part of me
ThanatosX said:
If those two are just a part of him, it means that the Space-time of the entirety of the Pokemon's cosmology is only a part of Arceus' whole being.
This alone is more than enough to justify his tiering in my opinion. The multiple statements of him transcending space, time and all of existence just support this claim.
Click to expand...
So Arceus, the Pokémon is 5D?

Thats new to me
 
Sniper670 said:
Dude. Are you FR?
Click to expand...
1d2dd2aff944499d0be0b7eeed2b082b.jpg


Sniper670 said:
If I created the concept of time and space that means they're merely a part of me and that signifies qualitative superiority?
Click to expand...
This is what the scan says so...
 
Thats not what the scans say at all.

Arceus created Dialga and Palkia to create space and time.

How is that = The entire multiverse is a mere part of it
 
What kind of logic is this?

Let's get Ultima or DT.

I created A and B to make time and space, that means the multiverse is a mere part of me

WTF
 
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