• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Pokemon AP/Durability upgrade (All Tier 7s)

Yeah im fine with it, i was just wondering if we could consider Magnitude 10 legit or not seein as its not too far off from the proposed upgrades
 
I'm fine with it. More than enough proof about this not being an outlier has been given
 
I also agree considering in the pokedex Pikachus are noted to being capable of making entire thunderstorms when working together.
 
I think the High 7-A rating should be exclusive to Thunder users and Pseudo-legendaries. I'm not comfortable with putting EVERY Tier 7 Pokemon at High 7-A.
 
I feel like obviously more powerful Pokemon than normal should also get scaled. Pokemon like Haxorus, Flygon, etc.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Do all the trainers from Battle Tree scale to this ? I mean, even the most basic members are Champion level.
Click to expand...
Just the notable characters.
 
I meant "IF" we could make profiles for all the characters in the Battle Tree... Would they "all" scale ? Because the ones above the notable characters are stronger than them according to the Battle Tree.
 
Why would we make files for irrelevant characters? It's best to keep it with Pokemon and Notable Trainers.
 
I was asking if they scaled to the notable characters and their feats ( each of them would scale to this 6-C in one way or another ) due to canonically being above them in the Battle Tree ... Depending on their rank. I wasn't saying we should make profiles, just asking if all the members of the Battle Tree scaled ?
 
Quoting Cal's Opening Post: Against it: Xcano, Aiden, LAS, Blue, Assaltwaffle, and Imaginym (I think)

Since I'm mentioned, presumably because I posted in the calc's blog page, I suppose I should try to make my stance here clear, for all that that matters. Hopefully I'm not too late.

The calc's basis is that of an animation involving stormcloud creation. I don't see much wrong with using animations. Especially given this recent thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/786524


My concern with this is why we'd only apply it to the Tier 7 Pokemon & above. I understand that's where the results of the calc place it at a minimum but trained Pokemon aside....

Well, barring special cases like Groudon who has it via other means (& a higher tier anyway, but not the point of Groudon as an example here.) only a trained Pokemon would know this if it didn't learn it via level up.

Trained Pokemon are already known to be stronger than wild Pokemon.


It just seems odd to exclude some of the Pokemon who learn this naturally, in the wild/via level up from the upgrade. The Pokemon that learn it via level-up.

Here's a blog Cal made about Pokemon scaling for reference.

The Pokemon that aren't currently Tier 7 that learn it via level-up:

Pikachu (Games). Aside from the minor oddity of using a game animation calc to upgrade Ash's Pikachu in the anime, I see little issue with this. There are instances of cloud creation for Thunder's use in the anime anyway. Even not for Pikachu, sometimes.

Jolteon, Electabuzz. Fully evolved Electric-types (At least, Electabuzz for 3 generations.) who according to Cal's Blogs are MCBL+, so I suppose, ineligible, despite being very close to being Tier 7 otherwise. Flaaffy is also MCBL+ but Not Fully Evolved & Electabuzz scales to Electivire & Elekid.

Mareep, Electrike: First stage Pokemon with little to scale to nor feats, & thus, Pokemon whom I doubt there's issues with not giving Thunder scaling to.

Elekid: Probably shouldn't scale to Thunder use. Baby Pokemon aside, it scales to Togedemaru, which [Togedemaru] along with other "Pikaclones" (Similar design themes, romanized Japanese name in English, Electric rodents, but otherwise different species.), is given Pikachu's tier for being a Pikaclone, despite all Pikaclones except Pikachu being Pokemon that don't evolve to or from anything.

Heliolisk: MCBL+ by the scaling in Cal's blog but not much else & Wall Level to Building Level by calcs for its feats, lol. It & by extension, Helioptile couldn't get the scaling from this either.

Plusle, Minun, Dedenne: The so-called Pikaclones that learn this move, unlike Pachirisu & Emolga. Although, unlike Pikachu, they're also Pokemon that don't evolve & thus don't have any pre-evolutions they're stronger than, nor evolutions they're weaker than. With that in mind, I find it a little questionable that even wild instances of this Pokemon can learn & wonder if they should be able to get the upgrade.


Also, IMHO, applying it to Pokemon shown using it seems fine, but (for the most part) not those who aren't show using it & only learn it via means other than level-up, just to make my opinion clear.

Also, one Pokemon I'd like to make mention of is Clair's Dragonair. This Gym Leader-trained Pokemon actually created thunderclouds at the least, & may have used Thunder also.

I haven't checked the episode yet, but:

Trying a different approach, Clair orders Dragonair to summon thunder clouds while Charizard keeps Dragonite busy.

It was a Very Well Trained Dragonair, I'll admit, but it's also worth mentioning that, besides Dragonair learning the move by TM (& sadly, only TM.) it has numerous Pokedex entries mentioning it being able to control weather, & even a wild one stopped a storm that produced at least one lightning bolt if my memory stopped.

I'd question if this wouldn't also be applicable to Dragonair, & by extension, Dragonite.
 
Guys, I disagree with Tyranitar being 7-A.

Radical's calc assumes that the Pokedex is referring to multiple mountains at once, when "destroying mountains" is more likely to be more of a general thing.

For example, when I say "I like to eat apples", I mean that I generally like apples, not multiple of them at once.

Everlasting and DontTalk both brought up points about this and they were seemingly disregarded.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RadicalMrR/Tyranitar_Mountain_Feat

If Tyranitar is to stay at 7-A, then it should be under the reasoning that it is immensely superior to Pupitar, who could destroy mountains by thrashing about, not under the assumption that Tyranitar can destroy multiple mountains at once.
 
@AN: Frankly, I'm not so certain we should assume Tyranitar is destroying singular mountains.

Diamond If it rampages, it knocks down mountains and buries rivers. Maps must be redrawn afterward.
Pearl
Platinum
Doesn't this suggest that one of Tyranitar's rampages will knock down multiple mountains? I'd assume that "If it rampages," suggests that what follows is the case should Tyranitar "go on at a rampage" at all, rather than "It will knock down one mountain per rampage".

Especially when it can already make "Great" mountains crumble by merely WALKING.


And on the topic of the terminology, I think "Great" Mountains almost certainly refers to larger mountains; If you ask me, saying "Great" is part of a subjective interpretation about how people favor mountains & which they'd describe as great varies from person to person is silly, because the word is being used in a Pokedex entry, which is generally encyclopedic, or meant to be at least. Assuming that "Great" is being used in the sense of "Very good" or "Important" seems silly to me. I mean, it seems implausible that the authors of that entry meant to convey:

"Tyranitar destroys peoples favorite mountains." or "Tyranitar destroys the most culturally significant mountains."

Maybe it's fallacious of me to argue with that as the basis, but it almost certainly seems more likely that in an entry meant to be encyclopedic(-like), "Great" would mean what several dictionaries put as its first definition:

Big.

(Or arguably, "impressive" or "grand".)

Not to mention little other than where the author of that entry is from suggests that they might be biased as to which mountains are great, & that's assuming they are biased about which mountains are great.

And there almost certainly is information on the size & compositio of ( www.fujisan-net.gr.jp/english/4_04.htm ) mountains, so it's not like we can't know that information, nor be able to make educated guesses as to how big a typical mountain is. And there are certainly locations widely considered mountains, too.


But, that's just my opinion on that matter. Sorry to anyone bothered by me.
 
Tyranitar walks and that creates earthquakes. How does an earthquake single out one mountain in specific while leaving every other surrounding land mass un touched?
 
Tyraniyar by walking creates earthquakes with him as the epicenter and any mountain in the vicinity would crumble. What else can it be?
 
Tyranitar himself is the one provoking the quakes so... he himself is the epicenter (if you think about it, this means that the energy produced by him is more than the one needed to destroy the mountains).
 
If maps have to be redrawn after Tyranitar rampages, and Tyranitar is also stated to destroy GREAT mountains just by walking, then perhaps the assumption that Tyranitar destroys multiple mountains at once isn't so dumbfounded after all.

Then there's the Pupitar statement of destroying a SINGLE mountain by thrashing about. It's interesting to note that Pupitar's Pokedex entry uses, specifically, "a mountain", while Tyranitar's uses "mountains".

Either way, Mountain level Tyranitar has very strong support behind it.
 
Radical calc'd the feat at 7-B and brought it up to 7-A by doubling the result, under the assumption that multiple mountains were destroyed.

Either way, the consistency is very strong. At this point I'm in full support of a High 7-A upgrade in some form, just not sure who scales to it.

So just a recap...

-High 7-A+ fully-evolved Pokemon (with some exceptions)?

-6-C Pseudo Legendaries and Mega evolutions? 6-C+ Mega-evolved Pseudo-legendaries?

-At least 6-C+ to High 6-C Legendaries (something like that)?
 
Well the thing is, Legends are varied in AP.

Like Zekrom, Reshiram and Kyurem have 6-A feats

Yveltal, Xerneas and Zygarde are High 6-A.

Lugia and Ho-oh are 6-B I believe

Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are obviously Tier 2.

Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza have 5-C feats

Solgaleo, Lunala and Necrozma have 0 feats....So we scale them to our General Legendary Tier.
 
By the way, general legendary tier, which are the ones with less feats, are just vastly above the strongest non-legendary. It used to be Moltres' latent energy, but not anymore.

If you ask me, the birds should just be Low 6-B now, and all the other featless legendaries should scale to that
 
@ArbitraryNumbers:

Not sure all fully evolved Pokemon are Tier 7, but whatever.

Also, I'm not sure we scale Pseudo-Legendaries to one another, as their common groups are based on Levels of evolution, Catch Rate, & BST, which are mostly game mechanics. Heck, currently, Dragonite, Hydreigon & Goodra are the current pseudos who aren't 7-A.

Kommo-o, too, if you don't count it its Totem Pokemon key, since Totem Pokemon are empowered by energy supposedly from Ultra Wormholes; IE, not a common factor for most individuals in the species.

The other pseudos (Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp) have feats or scaling to other Pokemon backing up their 7-A tiers, & also because they're Pokemon capable of Mega Evolving. Not because pseudos, IIRC.


If 2 Mountains gets Tyranitar (High) 7-A, then I wouldn't be opposed to High 7-A Tyranitar & Possibly or Low 6-C Mega Tyranitar.

MAYBE just plain 6-C for Mega Tyranitar? IMHO, the numbers matter a bit.

7-A is 100 Megatons to 1 Gigaton (1000 Megatons.) So even if Tyranitar was at Peak 7-A (1 Gigaton) & I'm not sure current calcs get it near 1,000 Megatons/1 Gigaton, it'd need to be 4.3 times as strong as Tyranitar or more to reach even Low 6-C. I question if Mega Tyranitar does give a big enough power boost, but whatever.


I still find scaling Mega Pokemon to one another questionable, though. Least of all because a Mega Pokemon has to be somewhat trained, & thus, stronger than a natural individual of the species even before Mega Evolving. And how strong the species are "in base" & other differences & not necessarily all species getting exactly enough Mega Evolution Energy to make them all the same strength seems... improbable?


Also, I'm still wondering about the Pokemon who naturally learn Thunder THAT aren't Tier 7. & also Clair's Dragonair, I guess. But maybe not the ideal time.

(Also, what happened to Moltres's Latent Energy?)
 
Looking over on Narutoforums I see Country and Continent level feats for some Pokémon, but given that I am not the most knowledgeble on the verse I dunno if they are above the Legendaries or below
 
A lot of Tier 6 feats are made by well trained Pokemon who are stronger than normal. However, no matter what the Legendaries should be mostly superior. Although a regular Diglett and Dugtrio has a High 6-C I believe...I think anyway.

Although we also have to slightly discuss characters who have caught Legendary Pokemon.....Canonically (So no Low 2-C Lucas or Dawn)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top