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Pokemon AP/Durability upgrade (All Tier 7s)

I started this, and I apologize. This is my fault entirely, as I snapped first. I don't know if it's something that happened with my personal life, or that all my internal rage let out, or something (because this happens like, every six months), but I still apologize.
 
@Dark I could of worded it differently, but I still stand with my post overall.

Not trying to make like my message wasn't rude, but there were messages that were starter that came before mine.

Nonetheless I was rude, however I will still keep the post up due to it still holding my opinion on ranks > logic.
 
And now I'm pretty sure this'll never get resolved due to my initial hostility...
 
Promestein said:
Can everyone relax? It's extremely disappointing that so many members, many of them staff or former staff, are getting this worked up and hostile over a simple revision thread. Of all things to get pissed off over on the internet, a discussion about the movement of clouds in a ******* Pokemon game? It's unbelievable.

Cal, Ant's a bureaucrat. It is well within his jurisdiction as one of the highest ranked staff members to warn other users like that. Here, in this disaster of a thread, it only makes things worse.

If another user gets hostile, tell them off, but don't get hostile in turn. You're only going to make things worse, and all these snide remarks, blatant insults, and apparent threats aren't helping.
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I strongly agree with Promestein. I also get very upset about different issues, but those are real world existential threats, not power-scaling issues that are just supposed to be about having fun and relaxing.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'd like to especially apologize to Blue, Xcano, and LAS.
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Thank you. I would appreciate if everybody else who have been rude would apologise in turn.
 
I have some very big problems with some of the arguments around this thread, and I would like to debunk them in my next posts.

Firstly:

"I agree with Xcanos post in the blog (That is to say, I disagree with the upgrade) Attack animations tend to be dodgy, especially in these sorts of games. Galaxy level Fate ccc Gilgamesh comes to mind."

Not at all. Attack Animations should be taken at face-value unless proven otherwise. Fate ccc Gilgamesh is a terrible example because we know from the official description that it is not a Galaxy level feat, so why bring it up.

Furthermore, there are plenty of games where attack animations are confirmed to be literal, such as Final Fantasy where all Summons fight by taking the opponent to pocket dimensions where they do the attack, and that is why there's no environmental destruction.

Secondly:

"Or you actually believe the creators take info consideration the power of the cloud forming? "

This is completely irrelevant. We never take the author into consideration 90% of the time. Megaman writers thinks he is Wall level, but that doesn't mean we will ignore all the various Tier 6, 5, 4 and 3 feat that the franchise has. Writers not knowing how strong something is doesn't mean it is not that strong.

Or how about Bleach, in which Kubo absolutely thinks that his characters are like, only supersonic and is always drawing sonic booms when a character is flying to showcase their speed.

Thirdly:

"Yeah, but calcing the f***ing Energy of the cloud formation is just.... Well, this is honestly ridiculous. Don't count with my agreement on this one."

I'm sorry, not to be rude, but this argument is simply invalid. It is an argument from incredulity, through and through. You don't accept the result being as high as it is, so you are calling the calculation itself ridiculous.
 
I am starting to get worried about the recurrent fighting amongst the staff. Kavpeny has also mentioned to me that he is concerned about the wiki eventually imploding due to this.

Regardless, since the majority seem to have accepted these changes, I suppose that they can probably be applied, so we can close this thread and avoid more fighting, but I agree that Pokemon's composite nature makes the franchise extremely hard to properly scale.
 
Antvasima said:
Regardless, since the majority seem to have accepted these changes, I suppose that they can probably be applied
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Im sorry but you cannot be serious. The amount of people that put fourth actual arguments and points in this thread easily outweighs the supposed people who agreed and havent even replied to, or perhaps even seen this thread.
 
I would appreciate if everybody make a consistent effort to at least tolerate and be polite to each other. Nobody is forcing you to personally like everybody, but we have to try to keep some order, harmony, and good mood amongst the staff for the sake of the wiki's continued survival.
 
@LordAizenSama I was referring to the list of people who agreed in the first post, but okay, never mind then.
 
Anyway, my point about that everybody have to make an effort to maintain the stability and future survival of this community still stands.

I am also very stressed out about western civilisation gradually collapsing, with my own country, Sweden, leading the charge, but we cannot take that out on other people in a harmless entertainment wiki.
 
@Ant

Just giving my thoughts here, but I think you should absolutely mind, because plenty of those people have actual, acceptable arguments, which were had both on the Blog and on this thread.

Of course people can disagree with them and give their own reasons, and some of the people on the other sides have arguments that are worth discussing and analyzing.

Cal Howard got angry both over his own temper and people baiting him, but many of his arguments are acceptable and logical. Meanwhile many of the arguments on the other side are not very legitimate, as I'm slowly demonstrating on my post above.

It is because of arguments like this where disparate sides take very strong opinions and don't agree with each other that we need to apply democracy in these cases, or else nothing would ever be resolved because as long as there is one person who is determined and argumentative enough, no revision would ever go through.
 
The argument that we sometimes have to apply democracy to avoid going around in circles is a good point.
 
Also, addressing the issue of the feat being an outlier:

Pikachu is currently ranked for a feat with a wield of 2.8347871e16 joules.

Howard's calc wields 1.59190798e19 joules, diving the results wields a gap of 561.561741 times. This feat is x500 times stronger than the later. That is enough of a big enough gap between results to be considered an outlier, specially at Tier 7 - 6. If the result was Continent level, then yeah, obviously an outlier. But this is only one tier higher than what the Pokemon are currently ranked as.

If anything, both calcs are mutually embracing, as they show that these levels of feats for non-Legendary Pokémon are reccuring.

Hell, looking over at Narutoforums and I find a Town level calc for weak Team Rocket Pokémon.
 
The real cal howard said:
More people agreed than disagreed, btw, including Azzy, who outranks everyone who gave an opinion so far.
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I just want to make something very clear, unrelated to the overall topic of this thread. I feel the need to say this.

I never want to be used in an argument like this. Ever.

Something that I take such pride in is that we are a community that accepts change. We accept evidence and prefer to fix things when they are wrong than to let them fester simply because they fit our personal tastes. People can disagree, and people can have friendly debates, and in such cases people can present their arguments to each other so that we can try to come to the best conclusion.

I am quite happy for high tiers on verses I like, just as most people are, but while I am happy that verses such as the Cthulhu Mythos or Warhammer 40,000 are ranked well, I am happy primarily because these are legitimate tiers that can be backed up with evidence and actual feats/statements, which in many cases I have taken the liberty of compiling. Saying "This verse I like is stupidly powerful just 'cuz and you can't argue with it" is pointless, hence why I have no desire for something like that to be done.

I do not want my name, Ant's name, DarkLK's name, or anyone's name to be used as a cudgel to beat people with in an argument. Nor should absolutely everything I say in regards to how something is tiered become law simply because I say it. That is insulting, and is not the kind of environment I want, here.
 
I agree with Azathoth. I want us to maintain our friendly atmosphere in this wiki, and all staff members, and former staff members, who are counteracting our efforts in this regard need to shape up immediately.
 
While i'm still neutral about the scaling, i'd like to address a few things.

Lightning bolts are building level, correct? So the fact that my intention is to hit with the lightning is inconsistent with the established AP regardless if the Pokemon is MCB, Large Mountain or Multi-Continent.

What the author think is irrelevant if it contradicts feats. The author can make characters who obliterate planets and have them killed by bullets. It can state that a large planetary feat is actually multi-continent and we would simply ignore what he/she said.

The "AoE Fallacy" is the whole premise of scaling and AP. Go on a random profile which has "traded blows with X" as a justification for the stats. If you check the actual fight, in 90% of the cases you won't see the level of destruction that the character can supposedly cause.

Also, about the example with "Cut", my Arceus needs Cut to destroy a tree. It's game mechanics.

And yes, there are cases of people tanking Hyper Beams. There are also cases of Outerversal Superman, Wall level Cloud Strife, Multi-Universal Beyonders and so on. It's an outlier.
 
Kaltias said:
The "AoE Fallacy" is the whole premise of scaling and AP. Go on a random profile which has "traded blows with X" as a justification for the profile. If you check the actual fight, in 90% of the cases you won't see the level of destruction that the character can actually cause.
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I strongly agree with this.
 
In Shin Megami Tensei, we have Universal+ - Multiversal+ characters fighting in Tokyo, and the city isn't destroyed.

AoE isn't simply an excuse to wank series, it is something that evidently exists. Superheroes for instance don't destroy the cities they are supposed to protect even when they have Planetary strength or higher. In real life energy conservation would mean that a City level character would destroy cities with every blow, but in fiction the laws of physics are constantly being broken in small or significant ways, and writers don't follows with the notions of energy conservation for practical reasons.
 
I agree with Matthew.
 
To answer a question previous asked, what Matthew said really is the only logical way they could've survived. Ant.. Are you gonna wait for more people or an attempted counterargument ?
 
The math looks right.

And if it's being used, applied and accepted for other series, I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to Pokemon. Consistency is important and there shouldn't be double standards. Either use it for all series or for none. If there is indeed an issue with the method and it is "wrong", make a thread about it which would also stop future instances of such usage (assuming everyone in the thread concludes it is wrong).

EDIT: There seems to be a thread for it now, apparently it will be case-by-case basis.
 
I apologize to Azzy as well, as I did besmirch his name. Sorry for thinking there's a hierarchy, and that did trigger a few members.
 
Well anywho, with that settled...What are we going to do? Do we accept this or not?
 
I personally feel it should. Especially with Matthew's claim, i feel that it could be accepted. But like i mentioend before, to whom would it scale to ?
 
If anything it would scale to Fully evolved pokemon. Not the likes of Butterfree, but Pokemon like Kommo-o, Tyranitar, Haxorus, etc.
 
By the way, I found several accepted calcs on the OBD that put normal Pokémon at Tier 7, so the claim that this is an outlier gets less legit by the minute.
 
@Matt

I know there's 7-C Ampharos, High 7-C Gigalith and 7-B Tyranitar, but what are you referring to?
 
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