-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pokemon AP/Durability upgrade (All Tier 7s)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
- 33,408
- 8,430
You guys should still address it...
- 32,359
- 20,298
Okay:
@Dark649
The argument relating to Charizard's calc is to show that these types of feats are recurring throughout the entire franchise.
@Dragonmasterxyz
Not addressing the scaling thing, most people seem fine with the math itself of the calc, but with his second argument of the: "We can't use environmental feats for AP".
First of all, energy is energy. The thunderclouds don't come out of thin air, they are produced by the energy contained within the Pokémon's body, an energy that is likely generated by the Pokémon the same way normal animals generate the energy their bodies spend to survive. The fact that the Pokémon doesn't simply spontaneously explode from the sheer power contained within him indicates that it can scale to his AP and durability
@Dark649
The argument relating to Charizard's calc is to show that these types of feats are recurring throughout the entire franchise.
@Dragonmasterxyz
Not addressing the scaling thing, most people seem fine with the math itself of the calc, but with his second argument of the: "We can't use environmental feats for AP".
First of all, energy is energy. The thunderclouds don't come out of thin air, they are produced by the energy contained within the Pokémon's body, an energy that is likely generated by the Pokémon the same way normal animals generate the energy their bodies spend to survive. The fact that the Pokémon doesn't simply spontaneously explode from the sheer power contained within him indicates that it can scale to his AP and durability
- 33,408
- 8,430
@Matt I agree. But I felt this should be addressed to keep this from being mentioned in the future.
- 9,738
- 1,523
This is my proposal of the scaling basing on levels:
5) Wall level (Via Magikarp calc)
14) Multi-City Block level+ (Via Pidgeotto tornado calc)
20/30) City level (Gyarados oneshotting cities and ravaging mountains)
45) Mountain level or Large Island level (If the Tyranitar mountain calc is accepted)
Megas) At least Mountain level or at least Large Island level (If the Tyranitar calc is accepted)
Basic Legendaries) At least Large Island level or Small Country level (If the Tyranitar calc is accepted. The other legendaries have their feats and scaling)
5) Wall level (Via Magikarp calc)
14) Multi-City Block level+ (Via Pidgeotto tornado calc)
20/30) City level (Gyarados oneshotting cities and ravaging mountains)
45) Mountain level or Large Island level (If the Tyranitar mountain calc is accepted)
Megas) At least Mountain level or at least Large Island level (If the Tyranitar calc is accepted)
Basic Legendaries) At least Large Island level or Small Country level (If the Tyranitar calc is accepted. The other legendaries have their feats and scaling)
- 40,470
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #248
My original option is still the best imo.
- 10,177
- 3,858
Zweilous? You mean the evolution of Deino & the pre-evolution of Hydreigon? Why would it scale to Mountain Level? It's not part of a Mega Evolution capable line, unlike Tyranitar, & IIRC, the line has few feats.PaChi2 said:
HYDREIGON might get Mountain to Large Island Level, but I'm doubtful about Zweilous itself.
@Dark649: I agree, evaluation of the calc would be good. I will admit, Tyranitar's entries do say it destroys great mountains, changes the landscapes, & the wording suggest multiples, as does scaling to Pupitar....
But Mauna Loa is a big Mountain/Volcano to use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volcanoes_by_elevatio
https://www.livescience.com/39681-worlds-biggest-volcanoes.html
I trust that the math works out, but I'm not the smartest, math-wise. Verifying that the math is correct seems fine to me.
- 4,652
- 1,328
I think the baby Pokemon, 1st Stage worms (Caterpie, Weedle, etc.), and Magikarp should all be Wall level in AP, with Magikarp keeping the High 8-C+ durability.
Because High 8-C+ Caterpie is simply too much.
Also, here's my Magikarp calc:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Magikarp_Leaps_over_a_Mountai
I'm also really skeptical about using Dark's High 8-C+ Magikarp, considering how much he had to lowball the feat.
Because High 8-C+ Caterpie is simply too much.
Also, here's my Magikarp calc:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Magikarp_Leaps_over_a_Mountai
I'm also really skeptical about using Dark's High 8-C+ Magikarp, considering how much he had to lowball the feat.
- 167,862
- 76,484
Well, I am not informed enough to support either interpretation, but fiction recurrently features glass cannon weather and energy manipulators, reality warpers, etcetera, so it does not always automatically scale to durability.
- 246
- 38
What Ant said.
What Matt is saying doesn't always make sense. There are other weather manipulators that have large feats with it like Storm and Esdeath. They are specifically categorized as Environmental Destruction because it doesn't scale to their normal AP. By Matt's logic, we would scale Storm's normal AP to her Environmental one and Storm would be able to punch regular humans into nothingness, a feat she is clearly incapable of normally. And it would make even less sense to scale such feat to their Durability.
What Matt is saying doesn't always make sense. There are other weather manipulators that have large feats with it like Storm and Esdeath. They are specifically categorized as Environmental Destruction because it doesn't scale to their normal AP. By Matt's logic, we would scale Storm's normal AP to her Environmental one and Storm would be able to punch regular humans into nothingness, a feat she is clearly incapable of normally. And it would make even less sense to scale such feat to their Durability.
- 32,359
- 20,298
@Antvasima
It scales until proven contrary. Glass Cannons do not make logical sense (They wouldn't be able to endure the enegy their own body produces) so we have no reason to assume they are glass cannons until proven
@Boome
No.
Those energies don't come from nowhere. They are contained within the characters' bodies and they can endure their own energy, just like we humans produce 100 joules per second and that scales to our durability. The amount of KE and heat energy necessary to produce a thunderstorm is immense, and treating it as "Environmental Destruction" is completely dishonest. Nobody has issues with TK feats being AP, and nobody has issues with heat generation being AP, or producing energy being AP... And storm feats involve all three and people say that they don't scale?
Feats of Telekinesis and Reality Warping scale to AP, and Weather Manipulation scales as well. Saying that it doesn't is as dishonest as making split AP and durability for punching and energy blasts, which was what people did for Dragon Ball back then, because the best feats were energy beams and they argued that "They can't do that with their punches", ignoring that the power of both their punches and their energy beams coem from their Ki.
The only profiles that split AP and Weather Manipulation are either old and unrevized, or specific cases.
And you do realize that Storm's Lightning is FAR stronger than regular lightning, right?
It scales until proven contrary. Glass Cannons do not make logical sense (They wouldn't be able to endure the enegy their own body produces) so we have no reason to assume they are glass cannons until proven
@Boome
No.
Those energies don't come from nowhere. They are contained within the characters' bodies and they can endure their own energy, just like we humans produce 100 joules per second and that scales to our durability. The amount of KE and heat energy necessary to produce a thunderstorm is immense, and treating it as "Environmental Destruction" is completely dishonest. Nobody has issues with TK feats being AP, and nobody has issues with heat generation being AP, or producing energy being AP... And storm feats involve all three and people say that they don't scale?
Feats of Telekinesis and Reality Warping scale to AP, and Weather Manipulation scales as well. Saying that it doesn't is as dishonest as making split AP and durability for punching and energy blasts, which was what people did for Dragon Ball back then, because the best feats were energy beams and they argued that "They can't do that with their punches", ignoring that the power of both their punches and their energy beams coem from their Ki.
The only profiles that split AP and Weather Manipulation are either old and unrevized, or specific cases.
And you do realize that Storm's Lightning is FAR stronger than regular lightning, right?
- 246
- 38
@Matt
No one said it isn't. But again, what you're saying doesn't make sense always. The term glass-cannon exists for a reason. And you're applying the law of conservation of energy in fiction, where it clearly is misused and downright ignored.
And not always is the body able to endure the energy it produces, case in point.
The more logical way of action would be to treat them as glass cannons until proven otherwise, because creating a storm is not the same thing as enduring it.
No one said it isn't. But again, what you're saying doesn't make sense always. The term glass-cannon exists for a reason. And you're applying the law of conservation of energy in fiction, where it clearly is misused and downright ignored.
And not always is the body able to endure the energy it produces, case in point.
The more logical way of action would be to treat them as glass cannons until proven otherwise, because creating a storm is not the same thing as enduring it.
- 32,359
- 20,298
No. You have to treat them as not being glass cannons until proven wrong, because glass cannons are something that don't make logical sense.
>Character telekinetically moves a building generating KE, okay with scaling to AP
>Character generates heat, okay with scaling to AP
>Character manipulates energy to produce a power-source or fire beams, okay with scaling to AP
>A character creates a thunderstorm, materializing clouds out of his own energy and / or moving those clouds at fast speeds generating KE, and expending energies to produce heat and energy for all the thunders that will be released by these clouds, suddenly not okay with scaling to AP.
All the energy comes from where? From the character's own body and power, and until proven wrong you assume that it scales to their durability or else they'd explode under their own power.
>Character telekinetically moves a building generating KE, okay with scaling to AP
>Character generates heat, okay with scaling to AP
>Character manipulates energy to produce a power-source or fire beams, okay with scaling to AP
>A character creates a thunderstorm, materializing clouds out of his own energy and / or moving those clouds at fast speeds generating KE, and expending energies to produce heat and energy for all the thunders that will be released by these clouds, suddenly not okay with scaling to AP.
All the energy comes from where? From the character's own body and power, and until proven wrong you assume that it scales to their durability or else they'd explode under their own power.
- 1,446
- 301
Pokemon energy is in no way generated by them.
"Slakoth rolls around for over twenty hours every day. Because it moves so little, it does not need much food. This Pokémon's sole daily meal consists of just three leaves."
if we're gonna take the logic that Pokemon dont pull from external energy sources then this guy is below average human.
Also with what you're saying how would the term "glass cannon" exist, if for example, this guy can produce this much energy and somehow it scales to his durability. Do you know how many profiles would need rescaling from this?
"Slakoth rolls around for over twenty hours every day. Because it moves so little, it does not need much food. This Pokémon's sole daily meal consists of just three leaves."
if we're gonna take the logic that Pokemon dont pull from external energy sources then this guy is below average human.
Also with what you're saying how would the term "glass cannon" exist, if for example, this guy can produce this much energy and somehow it scales to his durability. Do you know how many profiles would need rescaling from this?
- 32,359
- 20,298
@Dash
Okay, so it comes out of thin air? The energy is generated by them, not necessarely from food metabolism but somehow. Or perhaps they don't need nearly enough food like we humans do. Because I have never heard Pokemon pulling from "External power sources" ever being a thing.
Glass Cannons exist when characters are proven to be Glass Cannons, you don't just assume that they are out of nowhere. I never denied their existence.
And if you want to argue about rescaling, you do realize that there was a consensus reached a long while ago that Storm Feats do scale to AP, and this is how the vast majority of profiles here are created under their assumption? The only times the few people that disagree bring up them not scaling is when they wouldn't like how powerful that would make the character, which showcases bias.
Okay, so it comes out of thin air? The energy is generated by them, not necessarely from food metabolism but somehow. Or perhaps they don't need nearly enough food like we humans do. Because I have never heard Pokemon pulling from "External power sources" ever being a thing.
Glass Cannons exist when characters are proven to be Glass Cannons, you don't just assume that they are out of nowhere. I never denied their existence.
And if you want to argue about rescaling, you do realize that there was a consensus reached a long while ago that Storm Feats do scale to AP, and this is how the vast majority of profiles here are created under their assumption? The only times the few people that disagree bring up them not scaling is when they wouldn't like how powerful that would make the character, which showcases bias.
- 32,359
- 20,298
Probably, but it is very conspicuous that nobody has a problem with scaling Energy Beams to AP, Telekinesis KE to AP, Heat Generation to AP, Reality Warping to AP, etc etc. But suddenly when someone does a thunderstorm which involves matter generation / telekinesis / heat production, people insist that it doesn't scale.Antvasima said:
It's a severe bias in the system.
It is reminiscent of the old "Split Durability Fallacy" that OBD applied to Dragon Ball characters back in 2011. They argued that DBZ characters could only Planet-bust with their energy beams, and they were unable to tank such attacks as well. Which led to things like Goku being like, Town level via Striking Feats and Planet level with Kamehameha.
- 32,359
- 20,298
"Yeah, there's this thing called mystical magic power bs that is in almost every fiction ever."
Energy is energy, be it scientific or magical. This argument is completely meaningless. Things such as Chi, "Spiritual Power", "Magical Power", or whatever your Verse decides to call the mystical energy that the characters use can be perfectly be measured in Joules in feats.
And until you can prove that such is the case with Pokemon, I'm not buying. Specially since Pokemon are meant to be the equivalent of normal animals in their universe.
"But there's no evidence for both and normally when we do that, we don't pick the one that upgrades them."
No, we pick the one that makes the most sense. You need to prove that it's mystical energy, and even if it was it would still be produced somehow. Energy is energy, and it doesn't come from nowhere.
Energy is energy, be it scientific or magical. This argument is completely meaningless. Things such as Chi, "Spiritual Power", "Magical Power", or whatever your Verse decides to call the mystical energy that the characters use can be perfectly be measured in Joules in feats.
And until you can prove that such is the case with Pokemon, I'm not buying. Specially since Pokemon are meant to be the equivalent of normal animals in their universe.
"But there's no evidence for both and normally when we do that, we don't pick the one that upgrades them."
No, we pick the one that makes the most sense. You need to prove that it's mystical energy, and even if it was it would still be produced somehow. Energy is energy, and it doesn't come from nowhere.
- 32,359
- 20,298
It doesn't scale to Striking Strength. Striking is Physical only by definition.Antvasima said:
- 32,359
- 20,298
@dark
We have already argued extensively over the animation, and most people are fine with it.
But yes, the Tyranitar calc is easier to be accepted by skeptics. And regardless, this calc also shows another Tier 7 for Pokemon which is good.
We have already argued extensively over the animation, and most people are fine with it.
But yes, the Tyranitar calc is easier to be accepted by skeptics. And regardless, this calc also shows another Tier 7 for Pokemon which is good.
- 167,862
- 76,484
Regarding the durability, if the Pokemon is question can each withstand attacks from each other, I suppose that it does scale to durability in this case. I was just making a statement about characters in general.
- 167,862
- 76,484
Okay. All of the off-topic posts have been removed. For the record, I technically agree with Arigarmy and ScarletFirefly that the situation cannot continue like this, especially if people deny all responsibility when confronted about it.
- 26,331
- 3,127
@Ant Could you stop deleting you comments ? it's quite annoying
- 1,446
- 301
@Overlord775 I'm updating people who are against to the upgrade. You are against it correct?
- 6,104
- 5,106
What's being said about glass cannons is false. Reality warping requires no energy, yet Haruhi is a normal human that can split timelimes and reshape universal reality. Glass cannons are also far more common in fiction than we realize. We can't always scale durability to AP, again, this would work with Destructive Capacity due to the logic that if I could destroy a building and I did so unscathed, I'd have to comparable durability otherwise I would've hurt myself, but Attack Potency isn't always Destructive Capacity, it involves other mechanics and powers. Durability could be scaled to Striking Strength as well in that regard.
- 5,232
- 708
There are multiple staff who havent replied to this thread due to.. issues that also disagree. (Antonio, Gwynbleidd and Dark649)
Also Gwynbleidd pointed out issues with the calc itself that havent been addressed
Also Gwynbleidd pointed out issues with the calc itself that havent been addressed