Piccolo Moon Feat Downgrade

[ByAsura]

I think Piccolo's feat should simply be Moon level. Probably going to get a lot of hate for this.

1. There's no actual evidence that the moon was sent across space, in fact the moon is intact when Piccolo's blast first hits it and later we see no fragments hurdling through space, suggesting it was vaporized. At a speed of 90 km/s, the fragments would clearly be visible from anywhere in the panel, even if it were pulverized, due to the sheer density of fragments and dust molecules. I've heard people online try to claim that the fragments around Gohan's feat are debris from the moon (even though they'd burn up), however the full colour version clearly shows they're from the mountai he destroyed.

2. The calc is based on flawed methods. Firstly, Piccolo in this scan is barely above a rock formatio that's only a few times larger than Gohan's Great Ape form. Even if you want to use this sca, even though it clearly contradicts later panels closer to the moon's destruction, the most you're going to get is roughtly 36.915 metres (see calc below), which inflates the calculation to 12 times baseline Planet level. Secondly, the calc itself is based off the rubble around Piccolo falling just as destroys the moon and "scatters it", but you can see here the rubble started falling before Piccolo even notices the moo.





Piccolo = 307 px / 2.26 m

Gohan = 121.61 px / 0.89523973941 m

Gohan = 24 px / 0.89523973941 m

Rock Formation = 164 px / 6.11747155263 m

Rock Formation = 81.65 px / 6.11747155263 m

Panel Height = 690 px

2*atan(tan(70/2 deg)*(81.65/690)) = 9.473175437327 degrees

Plugging these values into the Angular Size Calculator gets 36.915 m

3. Vegeta being Planet level was portrayed as a massive event, and planet-busting is still a huge benchmark in Dragon Ball in the fight between Goku and Frieza, which is further reiterated by Bird Stuido Guides (see here for why they're canon). Despite Cell and SS2 Gohan being nearly 50x baseline Solar System level, SS Goku and Gohan are about halfway to baseline Solar System level due to these same reasons. Also, the Galick Gun Vegeta fired was clearly much more powerful than himself, as it could directly match Kaioken x3 Goku. These Bird Stuido Guides confirm that power level of 10,000 is needed to destroy a planet, while Piccolo here was only at 329 with his weights.

 

[SuperAPM]

I do remember finding this and this calc forever ago

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm fine with this myself.

 

[My_area]

Interesting,going to keep checking this thread

 

[Jvando]

I think the OP sounds reasonable. I will wait for more comments but for now I agree.

 

[Damage3245]

This is sounding reasonable so far.

I'm assuming this will only affect the AP part of the calc and not the speed part of it?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is getting my agreement as well

 

[The_Calaca]

Speed shouldn't be affected, no.

This seems fine. The scaling chain might suffer some changes.

 

[Antoniofer]

This same method is used in other calcs, one do not even see debris but rather a flash of light. Personally, I would avoid methods whose results deviate far above the aoe without further statements.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So it would just be baseline Moon level then?. What about the likes of Nappa, would he be At least Moon level?. Given only Goku Kaioken and Vegeta will be Planet level.

I'm fine with the downgrade regardless.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Will wait for more input.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So no recalc?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I do remember finding this

I'm pretty sure we have a standard moon vaping besides this, too, but still.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This feat has been evaluated so many times.

At one point it was moon level, then small planet level, then planet level, now it's back to moon level.

Anyway i don't really have an opinion here.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Give it a few months and we'll see this evaluated again at Large Planet level ovo. Anyway I also agree with this.

 

[Ionliosite]

Vegeta and those above him will remain 5-B because of him having a PL of 18,000 and the rest of Freeza Force being above him. Anyway, I agree with 5-C Raditz and everyone below him.

 

[The_Calaca]

Would Kaio Ken Effect them from the baseline, right?

 

[Ionliosite]

Most lilely.

 

[ByAsura]

This is sounding reasonable so far.
I'm assuming this will only affect the AP part of the calc and not the speed part of it?

Unfortunately it wouldn't. However, it seems reasonable, in my opinion, to use 5-10 seconds.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

wait, so toei goku is no longer 5-A anymore

 

[ByAsura]

In Toei, you can actually see fragments of the moon. They're fine at 5-A.

 

[ByAsura]

Since everyone seems to agree, here's the scaling chain and explainations

Piccolo with his weights on has a power level of 329 in this story, and a PL of 408 against Raditz, so the difference is fairly massive. Abe's calc is also 1/3.206th of the way to baseline Small Planet level.

Piccolo: Moon level (Casually vaporized the moon with one blast while weakened by his weighted armour), much higher with the Special Beam Cannon (Increased his power level to 1,480 and killed Raditz)

Goku: Moon level (Far superior to weighted Piccolo, who destroyed the moo)

Chiaotzu: At least Moon level (Far superior to Piccolo and Goku)

Yajirobe: At least Moon level (Trained with the other Z fighters and has a power level higher than that of Piccolo at the time when he destroyed the moon), higher with his katana (Sliced Oozaru Vegeta's tail off)

Sorbet: Unknow. Possibly Moon level, likely higher (Shouldn't be that much weaker than the average Frieza Soldier, who are similar in strength to Raditz)

Raditz: At least Moon level, likely higher (Easily defeated both Goku and Piccolo, who resorted to using the Special Beam Cannon in order to defeat him. Blasted off Piccolo's arm and broke Goku's ribs)

Saibame: At least Moon level, likely higher (Each Saibaman is said to be equal to Raditz)

Appule: At least Moon level, likely higher (Stronger than Raditz)

Jaco: At least Moon level, likely higher (KO'ed a Frieza Soldier), higher with his spaceship

Bardock: At least Moon level, likely higher (One of the strongest low-class warriors of his time, and should thus be considerably stronger than Raditz)

Yamcha: At least Moon level, likely higher (Superior to Raditz and bested a Saibame in combat with relative ease)

Paragus: (Even when old, weak and frail, his power level was much greater than Raditz)

Krillin represents the baseline character for Small Planet level. He fired a single blast, it split into six and obliterated 4 Saibame.

Krilli: Small Planet level (One-shot four Saibame, and his Kienzan would've cut Nappa in half had it landed)

Tien Shinha: Small Planet level (Superior to Krilli. Easily defeated a Saibame)

Nappa: Small Planet level (Fought all the Z fighters simultaneously and singlehandedly defeated them with minimal effort, who were by that point superior to Raditz. Knocked down Piccolo with one elbow strike and dismembered Tien Shinha with a single punch. After calming down and focusing his energy, he gave Goku an even fight before he used the Kaioken, with Vegeta stating he could have won if he kept his focus)

Goku: Small Planet level (Easily humiliated Nappa before he calmed down), up to Planet level with Kaioken (Overpowered Vegeta with Kaio-ken x3, and then matched his Galick Gun with a Kamehameha, overwhelming him when he went Kaio-ken x4)

Guldo: Small Planet level (Stronger than Nappa)

King Vegeta: Small Planet level (Was the strongest Saiyan at the time besides Prince Vegeta, which means he was superior to Bardock and Nappa)

Vegeta: Planet level (Stronger than Nappa and superior to Goku with Kaio-ken x2. Stated that he was going to turn the Earth to ashes and matched Goku's Kamehameha until he used Kaio-ken x4), higher as an Oozaru (Even when weakened, he was able to easily overwhelm Goku)

Cui: Planet level (As strong as Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Dodoria: Planet level (Stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Zarbo: Planet level (Stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Dodoria; after transforming, he easily beat early Namek Saga Vegeta, who earlier easily beat Dodoria and Cui)

Shisami: Planet level (Stated to rival Dodoria and Zarbo at their peaks)

Tagoma: Planet level (Noted by Sorbet to be comparable to both Zarbo and Dodoria at their peaks)

Vegeta (Namek Saga): Planet level (Easily defeated Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbo, and killed monster Zarbon after his second Zenkai)

Recoome: Planet level (Significantly stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta)

Burter: Planet level (Comparable to Recoome, who is significantly stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta)

Jeice: Planet level (Comparable to Recoome, who is significantly stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta)

Goku and Ginyu are no longer At least Planet level. Even if you assume Ginyu is comparable to Great Ape Vegeta, then he's only about 10x baseline Planet level, and they need to be 23x baseline just to reach Planet level+.

Captain Ginyu: Planet level (Superior to Vegeta, Dodoria, Zarbo, and the rest of the Ginyu Force by a very significant margin)

Goku (Namek Saga): Planet level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice), Higher with Kaio-ken (Surpassed Ginyu in power, leading to him stealing his body. Claimed this power was nothing compared to what he could achieve in short bursts)

 

[The_Calaca]

Wasn't Bardock state to have a PL of 10,000? Wouldn't that make him baseline 5-B?

 

[ByAsura]

That's non-canon Bardock.

Also, we don't actually know how strong canon Bardock is because that low-class statement refers to episode of Bardock. So it probably should be removed outright.

 

[The_Calaca]

I meant him, yes. Didn't notice you was talking about canon Bardock.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok. Non-canon Bardock is Dwarf Star level for having a PL near King Vegeta, whose power level is 10,000.

 

[The_Calaca]

Right.

Everything is fine to me in your update.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Kienzan ignores durability though.

 

[ByAsura]

No, it can just cut characters more durable than the one that throws it. If the attack did bypass durability, Cell would have been killed.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

That was filler though.

 

[ByAsura]

You're right, but there's still no evidence it bypasses durability. In Super, Jiren easily tanks, catches and tosses away one of SSB Goku's even after the latter powered up immensely.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Goku and Ginyu are no longer At least Planet level. Even if you assume Ginyu is comparable to Great Ape Vegeta, then he's only about 10x baseline Planet level, and they need to be 23x baseline just to reach Planet level+.

Given how many degrees of curbstomp there are between Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Ginyu, 10x feels like a huge downplay.

Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) = Cui <<< Vegeta (Post-Saiyan Invasion) <<< Transformed Zarbon <<< Vegeta (Post-Zarbon) <<< Recoome <<< Goku (Namek Arrival) < Ginyu

Even assuming each on is only 2x as strong as the previous that's still 32x assuming my math isn't wrong.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I don't think it works like that Nappa.

 

[ByAsura]

That's massive upscaling.

 

[Akreious]

Probably safer to leave it as At least Planet Level given how there are numerous amounts of stomps between Saiyan Saga and Ginyu's Debut/Battle. The low-end is still Planet Level but depending on how you swing a stomp, it can easily reach Planet Level+

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Honestly that's what I was gunning for

 

[ByAsura]

Not really. Stomp chains aren't that massive in Dragon Ball. Nappa one-shot Piccolo after getting serious, for example, and dismembered Tien. All of these rely on numbers as well (such as 2x for one-shotting), which can be completely inconsistent.

Also the stomp chain is more like this: Vegeta (Saiyan Saga) = Cui <<< Vegeta (Post-Saiyan Invasion) << Transformed Zarbon =/= Vegeta (Post-Zarbon) << Recoome <<< Goku (Namek Arrival) << Ginyu

Despite being stronger than Vegeta, Zarbon was unable to kill Vegeta with the enormous beating, Cui on the other hand was killed with a single punch and energy attack. In his second fight, Vegeta had to take Zarbon off guard and weaken him with a barrage of attacks, even then the two could briefly swap hands. Lastly, Recoome grossly overpowered Vegeta, but the latter still harmed him on multiple occasions.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I agree with this.

 

[ByAsura]

At one point it was moon level, then small planet level, then planet level, now it's back to moon level.

If you get rid of KE entirely, there's nothing to re-evaluate.

 

[LordTracer]

Recoome: Planet level (Significantly stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Burter: Planet level (Comparable to Recoome, who is significantly stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Jeice: Planet level (Comparable to Recoome, who is significantly stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Captain Ginyu: Planet level (Superior to Saiyan Saga Vegeta, Dodoria, Zarbo, and the rest of the Ginyu Force by a very significant margin)

Shouldn't they all be superior to Namek Saga Vegeta and not Saiya Saga Vegeta?