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Persona General Revisions Part 1: Tiers and General Statistics
- Thread starter Solacis
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- #42
Unfortunately, yes.
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Provide the evidence from the other CRT please.
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- #45
Nothing to talk about.
Regular space-times don't cater to the cognitive physiology of Shadows, which function according to different laws of space-time. In response, they create new space-times that are independent of normal space-time, cognitive worlds where they can function. This means that fundamentally speaking, all cognitive worlds are alternate space-times.
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Which revisions have been accepted by which staff and knowledgeable members here?
Also, @Matthew_Schroeder which changes do you think are acceptable, and which are not acceptable, in summary?
Also, @Matthew_Schroeder which changes do you think are acceptable, and which are not acceptable, in summary?
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As things are, @Schnee_One and @Dragonmasterxyz have agreed to the above revisions. Not to mention, I've already cleared up Matt's misunderstanding as to how cognition functions as a verse mechanic. Additionally, @The_real_cal_howard and @DarkGrath have overseen the formation of these revisions, alongside Dragon, though they've yet to voice their thoughts. It's why I'm waiting for the latter before we move on.
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Well, he is a very knowledgeable member regarding this verse, who usually has a good sense of judgement about scaling, but you can ask other active members listed in our Knowledgeable Members List to comment here via their message walls if you wish, particularly the staff.
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Matt has never been a knowledgeable member of Persona. I don't know what he's claiming that makes you think he is, but I've been consistently spearheading Persona revisions and overall just fixing up the verse for years and not once has he ever been an active participant. DarkGrath and Dragonmasterxyz are Persona-knowledgeable staff members, and once upon a time, SeraEX was too, but never Matt.
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I do think it's fair to at least wait for Matt to give his argument back to this.
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- #58
I suppose that's true.
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This is a lie, he hasn't talked to me outside this thread nor has he explained anything to me. Jesus Christ.
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- #60
By clear up, I mean that I've explained what it is you've gotten wrong, and provided the proof you flat-out asked for. It's right here in this thread, as your notifs should've told you since I quoted your message.
In case you've missed it in spite of said notification, for your benefit, I'll quote it below:
So yeah. Before accusing me of being a liar, how about next time you pay attention to what's going on.
In case you've missed it in spite of said notification, for your benefit, I'll quote it below:
So yeah. Before accusing me of being a liar, how about next time you pay attention to what's going on.
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Your... Evidence, literally has an argument for the contrary.
Obviously the Palaces and Labyrinths and whatever have space-time or else they wouldn't exist, but that literally confirmed it's not a regular universe.
The actual quote: "in accordance with this, they need to create a sort of space outside of time, independent of the usual laws of space-time"
Literally confirms it's not a universe.
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Because it needed to be a regular universe and not "some sort of space" with its own set of rules that defy the laws of physics that make up our universe.
It's a weird space based on cognition, not a universe the size of our own. This is self-evident from the quotes you yourself provided.
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Also your Imgur link literally doesn't work for me. I was only able to read the preview. Should get that fixed.
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- #65
Since when have different laws of space-time invalidated an alternate space-time being of a universal size despite multiple statements to it being so?
Palaces are worlds which on several occasions are stated to directly parallel the physical reality. The physical reality has already proven itself of Low 2-C size, since alternate timelines exist as per the scans in the OP. Tell me how Cognitive Worlds can be considered any less substantial than the real world, when it is stated both by Philemon and by Morgana that the Collective Unconscious directly affects and shapes the physical reality? If anything, cognitive worlds are more substantial than the physical one.
Palaces are worlds which on several occasions are stated to directly parallel the physical reality. The physical reality has already proven itself of Low 2-C size, since alternate timelines exist as per the scans in the OP. Tell me how Cognitive Worlds can be considered any less substantial than the real world, when it is stated both by Philemon and by Morgana that the Collective Unconscious directly affects and shapes the physical reality? If anything, cognitive worlds are more substantial than the physical one.
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There are no statements of it being of universe sized that's what. Just that it's a reflection of the real world. Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are the same size, as they are only a reflection of cognition.
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This seems to be a correct interpretation of our Pocket Reality Manipulation rules, if I remember correctly.
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What part of "directly mirroring the real world" do you not understand? Palaces are perfect replicas of the real world save for the respective Ruler's distortion. If the real world is a Low 2-C structure, then so would the cognitive mirror of it be just as large. It's not just an alternate space, it's an entire space-time of its own. The statements are especially clear about it being its own space-time as opposed to just a pocket space. It says so on the Pocket Realities page that should such a space possess its own timeline, then it would be considered Low 2-C.
"Space-time" would mean it functions on its own independent timeline, which is further shown by the varying disparity in sequence of events between the happenings in a Palace and its effects on the real world, such as Okumura's death being several days off from the death of his Shadow. The P3 Club Book (in the scan I posted above that Matt seemingly missed) outright states that cognitive worlds exist outside of time, independent from the physical reality's space-time.
Couple the above with the many statements of Palaces directly mirroring the entire physical reality, then it's unquestionable that Palaces are Low 2-C structures.
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Clearly they aren't or else they wouldn't be different in how they are shaped and how the laws of reality apply to them.
Not necessarily because Palaces are built out of the cognition and internal perception of their creators. Their size is utterly arbitrary and not required to be literally universal, and likely isn't as palaces aren't equal to the real universe in how they function or even are created.
You are inventing quotes, it's just said to have space-time which all pocket realities have.
You haven't proven that it does, just that it has space-time. You are making assumptions to interpret things, palaces obviously don't have timelines because they are just created in the present by their masters, go back in time and they won't exist.
No. It does not. "Space-time" just means it exists at all, or else it wouldn't be a pocket dimension. The disparity of events is rather meaningless in helping your case, it can easily be explained as time flowing differently in the Metaverse which does not require higher-dimensional stuff.
I didn't miss it after you clarify, don't be dishonest. And I already addressed it, the quote on the P3 Club Book only further supports my argument that they aren't full universe because they are straight up referred to as "Some sort of space" that is outside the laws of physics that apply to the real world. Meaning that they are not full universes.
All of your arguments are dishonest as all hell and I am vehemently against any upgrade you are proposing here.
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What part of "save for the Palace Ruler's distortion" are you missing? And last I checked, "laws of reality" are irrelevant to size, or else any alternate timeline in fiction with different laws of reality wouldn't be considered Low 2-C, which is ridiculous.
No they are not. Their distortions are caused by strong internal perceptions. The Palaces themselves reference the owner's entire cognition, which includes the knowledge of the size of the universe.
Time flowing differently flat-out means that there are two separate timelines involved. And what are you bringing higher-dimensional stuff into this for?
Am I supposed to take this seriously? "Some sort of space" can literally mean anything. Different laws of physics do not disqualify it from being universe-sized.
All pocket realities have space-times, yes. Not all of them have space-times independent of the standard space-time. Palaces have their OWN timeline. Also...
"...in accordance with this, they need to create a sort of space outside of time, independent of the usual laws of space-time..."
Now what was that about not missing the scan? Maybe not, but you obviously never read it. You also seem to have a strange fixation on calling me a liar. I'm not going to entertain an obvious bias against these revisions just because someone decides to convince themselves I'm dishonest, instead of admitting they can't read or comprehend English for shit.
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I agree with the upgrades
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The fact that the palaces are based on cognition and are described as distorted and different from our universe means they aren't real universes, that's self-explanatory. I don't understand what you are missing here.
Yes but the palace is primarily a reflection of their creator's inner thoughts, that's why they take forms symbolic to the user. This is the primary evidence that they are not the size of universes but something else entirely. I don't understand what is so complicated.
No it doesn't. It just means time flows differently in one dimension, you are literally inventing rules and standards where there are none. It's practically delusion at this point.
Congratulations, you agree with me.
"Some sort of space" can mean literally anything, but the fact that they use it in particularly and not some stronger wording that indicates direct paralleling between it and the real world proves it's not a real universe. It factually isn't as per what the story is saying.
The fact that the laws of physics that make up our universe don't apply mean it's not Low 2-C either because the structure of the Cognition World is potentially far more fragile due to the existence of less binding laws that make up its composition. A universe that has no laws of physics would be far easier to destroy than one that doesn't, for instance.
And also utterly unquantifiable because energy as we understand it is dependent on our universe's laws.
This is the same thing. Another space-time separate from the standard is what makes a pocket dimension in the first place. You are not making sense here, at all.
They don't. YOu're just lying at this point. The Reach you are making to gain this assumption just from "it has another space-time" is so large it is raising the concern of the Covenant.
Yes, well done. I already knew this and addressed it before. This is precisely part of the reason why I'm pointing out that they're not actual universes.
I did read it, I am concerned if you didn't. Because what you are saying does not correlate at all to what the scans say.
Because you are insisting that the scans say something they have not. It's either calling you a liar or making judgement about your mental well-being that I'm not qualified to make. And I'd rather assume the former. Either way, I do not trust your sense of analysis here whatsoever, you are categorically wrong about the Palaces being universes and thus the upgrades will not happen.
This is rich! Don't insult my reading comprehension when you are literally inventing statements here, mate. I am analysing the statements as you present them to be and in themselves they do not say anything about the palaces being the size of universes. Everything else is your biased interpretation of the statements because you want the setting to be stronger.
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Also the Imgur link STILL doesn't work to me. Please get that fixed, I asked it twice already.
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Yeah I'm not dealing with this.
An unknowledgeable, unprofessional staff member with the literal worst reputation on the wiki for being an overall idiot is telling me I'm being dishonest and reaching, when he himself has a wiki-wide rep for pulling things out of his ass just to get what he wants like a spoiled brat. I'm just going to ignore you because to be completely honest, I'm not letting a manchild waste my time when there are already more than enough people and staff that have voiced their support of these revisions; and all of them are FAR more credible than you have proven yourself to be.
@Antvasima. Sorry for this, but I'm not going to take shit from him anymore.
An unknowledgeable, unprofessional staff member with the literal worst reputation on the wiki for being an overall idiot is telling me I'm being dishonest and reaching, when he himself has a wiki-wide rep for pulling things out of his ass just to get what he wants like a spoiled brat. I'm just going to ignore you because to be completely honest, I'm not letting a manchild waste my time when there are already more than enough people and staff that have voiced their support of these revisions; and all of them are FAR more credible than you have proven yourself to be.
@Antvasima. Sorry for this, but I'm not going to take shit from him anymore.
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Being considered "an overall idiot" in the environment of Vs Battles Wiki is actually a good thing. Overall it just means I think for myself in my experience.
Also, so much for debating my arguments and not character. You are just falling into the fallacious pitfall of Ad Hominens here, Solacis. A mixture of Tone Policing and Appeal to Emotion. I addressed each and everyone of your arguments while also politely asking for better scans / a fixed imgur link everytime, but whenever I disagreed with your conclusions and tried to argue my own point you devolved into petty insults and the insistence that I hadn't actually read anything you posted. As if your interpretation of the scans is unequivocal objective law and not what you make of them.
This is basically an admittance that you've give up, actually. If you are unable to address the opposition's arguments and am just resorting to personally insulting them as if you have some perceived moral high-ground, what you are actually saying is that you have no way to address the counterarguments.
This is irrelevant. If people are agreeing to an argument that has already been responded to when there is no presented contradiction to said argument, then their support is meaningless. It's like saying that the Flat Earth is true because it has "Millions of supporters around the globe".
It doesn't matter how many people believe in a factually wrong statement, it won't change its nature as being factually wrong in the end.
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I'm--really not sure what else you want. Palaces are reflections of the real world as stated by Morgana, even things outside of their distortion. This is literally evidenced by Ryuji, with a plan that involved a cognitive Ren being in an interrogation room, outside of the Palace. Yusuke already admits that the real world is a universe in the observatory in his social link. Furthermore, Ryuji running away in Shido's palace had a myraid of stars in it, which again, is outside the initation distortion. Morgana outright says the universe is made of cognition, and the Metaverse, which is a whole different reality on it's own.
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Everyone here needs to chill the **** out first and foremost, good lord. Everyone here acting like damn children. How about you all start approaching this calmly without accusations or attacking each other's characters. Ya'll I assume are mature adults or at least teens right? Act like it.
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Firstly, thank you for addressing my arguments in a respectful manner, Milly. I really appreciate the attempt at discussion.
As for my take on your response:
As for my take on your response:
This is irrelevant to say they are universal in size. They are reflections of the real world because they are pocket dimensions that are based on the real world, but twisted through the perception and cognition of their creator. Well done. This means nothing.
That doesn't prove anything other than the fact that cognition can affect the outside world too.
Yes, this is basic Megaten lore, but it doesn't mean the smaller cognition worlds that are based on the observation of a single person rather than the entire human species is universal in size.
At most this would be 4-A. Not Low 2-C. The existence of stars is a realm doesn't mean it's universal in size.
The metaverse on its own is parallel to the Real Universe, which is part of the reason why I object to the notion that individual palaces are universal. If the entire thing is paralleling one universe then things that make up infinitesimal fractions of it wouldn't be.
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Hold on, gimme some time to properly respond. Some members are worked up and I'm just more angry that the CRT was split up when all of our counterclaims could be countered if we didn't.
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