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Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!

Who has a 7-C creation feat? Is it applicable to their AP?

When I say Ren scales to his Persona's, I mean quite literally. If you use a Persona with a higher strength stat then Ren deals more damage, regardless of whether or not he attacks with said Persona. Same applies with the other stats.
 
It's that fat mob boss guy, whose palace was the entire city/town area.

Fair enough.
 
While I disagree with the logic; our wiki currently treats creation feats as feats of Attack Potency.

Creaing a Town would therefore be a Town level feat.

Now, we determine if it's Environmental Destruction if they use the same energy to attack opponents. In the case of (some) Palace Owners, they have energy-based attacks such as elemental, holy, or curse attacks. Keep in mind they're vigourously defending their treasures more times than not, and there is no reason for them to be pulling any punches.

Ergo, those attacks would be 7-C.
 
Okay but you still have to prove that the means of creation can be scaled to means of destruction.

If I can create an ice castle with my powers than sure, that can scale to my attack potency... but only through my ice powers, not my normal punches and kicks and whatnot.

Same applies here, sure he created a town with his twisted desires... but how does that scale and correlate to his punches?

Ergo he is 7-C via twisted desires hax, but nothing suggests he's 7-C in general.

Plus, at his strongest he's using a giant metal rolling ball, not himself.
 
Yes, your logic is sound, physical attacks don't scale by default. That's why I'm arguing against the 4-C rating.

He uses curse-based attacks to harm the cast, though.
 
Okay, we're on the same page then.

Right, but his curse-based attacks don't have a real rating of their own. They can't scale to his twisted desires.
 
I'd be inclined to agree with you, but the way the wiki currently treats it as, if there are energy-based attacks they have, you can scale it to their creation feats. Curse attacks would broadly fall under that among others.
 
Even if the energy used isn't the same type of energy used by the creation feat?

That's very stupid. Not all energies can be output at the same strengths.
 
Hard to say. I agree in that it should be first proven that it is the same type of energy, and that the creation feats don't necessarily line up with anything else in the story, but I'm just operating on what the wiki assumes.

And of course, but looking at context; the palace rulers are clearly trying to kill and stop you on the spot. Why wouldn't they be using their full energy to attack you?
 
Where does it say that on the wiki?

I'm not saying they aren't doing it for lack of trying, but that they physically cannot. If I can manipulate multiple forms of energy I need to prove to you that I can do so at similar strengths, the assumption should not be that I can. Goku's ki is not equal in power to his god ki, Zuko's fire bending is not equal in power to his lightning bending, Kaneshiro's curse manipulation is not equal in power to his twisted desires, etc etc.

It's just that some forms of energy manipulation are more difficult to output at higher levels than others.
 
We actually discussed it in detail here, although we're still working out exact changes.

"Twisted Desires" isn't really the source of energy from how I'm reading it, it's more what triggers the palace creation.
 
Morgana specifically uses the word fuel to illustrate how a palace is created. Palaces are fueled and created from twisted desires. If it goes away via having the treasure stolen or changing their heart IRL then the palace goes too.

Shadows themselves don't run on twisted desires, otherwise when they run out of energy the palace should collapse but that's shown not to be the case. You can beat the shadow up and they'll fall onto the ground tired but the palace won't collapse until you take their treasure or kill them, causing the real life counterpart to die.
 
Why are we still on palace creation feats? We are not progressing the discussion, we are regressing and going in circles while adding another argument each cycle.

Anyway, I've been thinking about the DLC.

Considering Messiah has a page and Joker can use both Messiah and his own version of the persona "Messiah Picaro" which is a bit stronger, I think it should scale to Joker.
 
The issue there Sera is whether we treat that as canon. More specifically Messiah Picaro. Also, we are still forgetting about Morning Star as well. If we accept all Max Arcana's as canon (which I am sure we do), Lucifer should in fact be a canon persona for him.
 
Are DLC Personas even canon? I hope not.

@Dargoo Faust that's fair enough. I'd like to adress that the cast gets stronger over time, so whether that feat is an outlier or not, is debatable, but yeah, it was pretty insane because we had never seen anything like that attack before. Although all I wanted to adress is that in the attack animation, what we saw there was an actual real Galaxy (well, not real because it's in the Metaverse, but you get me) since everything indicates it is (the name of the attack, the visuals and animation of it and the setting it happens on).

I agree with you on Futaba though. I don't think she has enough physical feats for her to be on the same level as the other Thieves.

And nobody answered me on Minato's case about him being 4-A yet.
 
Of course every Persona in-game is canon. I don't see why we wouldn't use the Picaro variants at least. They are specifically stated to be the Personas of those who shared fates similar to Joker, twisted into becoming the Trickster's mask, hence "Picaro".
 
@Thiag125

Minato is 4-A via Messiah, his ultimate persona.
 
It's not. It's the least impressive by endgame feat-wise.
 
Futaba can create a barrier which nullifies enemy attacks...So at the very least that would scale to stronger non-boss shadows.
 
I knowit's unpopular and shouldn't be stated, but I think every final boss, Attendant, Igor, end game persona (Messiah, Izanagi and Saitanel) should be universal+/low multiversal in terms of scaling
 
PQ2 is not out yet, but Yu and Joker will apparently have a short fight.
 
I am just asking, Nyx is the literal responsible of the existance of the collective unconscious that we know has spawned Yaldabaoth, Philemon and Nyarlathotep, three powerful beings with universal feats.
 
Megami Tensei Wiki said:
In the Persona 3 Club Book, in a Q&A section it is stated that Nyx is in fact a living being outside reality the size of a celestial body known as "the Planet Eater," that drifted space in a dormant state. Eventually, this being collided with the Earth, and ended up entering Earth's orbit becoming its moon, but leaving its psyche on the surface. This "wave-like psyche" stood a contradiction to the already existing life on earth, which was still at a very primitive state. In order to resist this contradiction, the lifeforms on Earth had a period of evolution and developed a collective subconsciousness in which the lifeforms locked away the psyche of Nyx by suppressing its psyche with their own thoughts. Nyx's physical body entered a healing process after the colliding with the Earth from within Earth's moon. By the time Persona 3 takes place, that process was just about done. The Fall is the process in which Nyx's psyche re-enters its physical body, giving Nyx its original form back, meaning a paradox for life on Earth, and thus the end of the world.
The guidebook also makes a quick mention of the Great Will (a recurring power in the main series), stating that Gods and Demons emerge from humans as another means to defend their psyche from Nyx.

.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah no. The Guidebook never mentions YHVH, and the Collective Unconscious predates the very universe Nyx is from. It comes from Philemon and Nyarlathotep.
 
Philemon and Nyarlathotep are products of the collective unconscious,not its creators, as enbodiment ofpositive and negative human traits.

And the Guidebook explictly mentions Nyx predates it. and having evolved to fight Nyx back
 
Not really. For all we know, the past with Nyx still happened in the old universe.Given how weknow Philemon is still around, yet

1) The Collective Unconscious has been existing tocontrast it

2) Igor calls it "the one who can't be beaten"

it's pretty clear Nyx of all being is the top dog (heck especially because it's shown that Messiah doesn't really beat it, just blocks Erebus' path to Nyx, after which Nyx returns to slumber)
 
Philemon did not create the collective unconscious. Philemon, Nya, Nyx, they are all byproducts of the collective unconscious.
 
@Sera @Matt

I sure hope the "stay on topic" and "regressive arguing" wasn't directed towards me, as all I'm doing is stating the opinions what you two and the vast majority of people who commented on my pocket reality thread expressed. That is, Creation feats are AP feats, however they do not scale to Striking Strength or their ability to harm an opponent unless they use the same energy to attack.

I'm simply requesting that this be applied to the Persona feats, which is why I'm bringing up stuff like Futaba, Okumura, and others, as some palace bosses don't have attacks that would scale to their creation energy.

So, I'd like to seriously discuss weather these feats apply under a definition all of you agreed on instead of being dismissed.

Even then, I feel like scaling the palace creation feats to AP even with marginally decent justifications is still off. If there was a single supporting feat from anyone in the verse that justified the ratings outside of the palace creation I'd be inclined to agree, but I can't find anything.

For example, Puella Magi has a decent amount of supporting feats behind their pocket reality feats, hence why they aren't considered as outliers. Can the same be said about Persona 5?
 
@Dargoo

No it wasn't directed at you. Everyone started arguing about Nyx and Philemon and I didn't want the thread to go off track again.
 
I don't think it was directed at you.

You already know my stance on palace stuff so I won't go back into it. Some attack animations might be comparable though iirc.

And then there was the idea of scaling them to Personas obtainable in each dungeon but I'm not sure how that would work.
 
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