-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!
- Thread starter ProfessorLord
- Start date
- 15,636
- 5,391
I feel like scaling would be more appropriate, and then we can use the palace feats if they line up with scaling from the previous games. For example the mob-boss' palace being the size of a town lines up with some of the early game feats from P4.
The only feat I think is pretty solid in the game is Yaldy and Ren/Satan being Low 2-C/2-C out of what's been discussed.
The only feat I think is pretty solid in the game is Yaldy and Ren/Satan being Low 2-C/2-C out of what's been discussed.
- 15,636
- 5,391
Thanks for telling me. It was hard to tell as those comments were made right after Prof and I made a small convo.Sera EX said:
- 33,405
- 8,416
My Lucifer comment was ignored it seems...if someone could like an image of Morning Star (Can't...busy with video design work), that would be nice as it is a star moving feat from a persona Ren can canonically obtain.
- 15,636
- 5,391
I could calc that. Never did a celestial body movement feat calc before so I'd be nice to try.Dragonmasterxyz said:
And sorry for missing that. That would line up with Futaba's creation feat and would likely work as a good supporting feat, which is what I was mainly looking for.
- 2,012
- 266
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=132&v=7uVL5Rak_C8&feature=youtu.be 2:13 if it's not linked directly
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NcB0da8f8J8&t=1044 and 17:24 why is everybody just focusing on the palace creation and ignoring this? This video is a supporting feat to the 4-A P5 cast that has been seemingly been ignored.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=NcB0da8f8J8&t=1044 and 17:24 why is everybody just focusing on the palace creation and ignoring this? This video is a supporting feat to the 4-A P5 cast that has been seemingly been ignored.
- 4,256
- 658
- Thread starter
- #328
Base Game = CANON
DLC = Extended canon
Messiah isn't in the base game, and neither are any of the other protag Personas. It wouldn't even make sense for them to be apart of the sea of humanity; they stem from a SPECIFIC person.
It's like saying DLC in Pokemon games for Ash's Pikachu means it's now a canon scale to go off of... no?
Besides, the description of all protag personas clearly read: A Persona from another story. It screams extended canon rather than primary canon, the base game.
DLC = Extended canon
Messiah isn't in the base game, and neither are any of the other protag Personas. It wouldn't even make sense for them to be apart of the sea of humanity; they stem from a SPECIFIC person.
It's like saying DLC in Pokemon games for Ash's Pikachu means it's now a canon scale to go off of... no?
Besides, the description of all protag personas clearly read: A Persona from another story. It screams extended canon rather than primary canon, the base game.
- 2,012
- 266
It wouldn't even make sense for them to be apart of the sea of humanity; they stem from a SPECIFIC person.
Well maybe a specific version of that persona. But Koromaru's persona is cerberus and Ryuji's ultimate persona is Sun Wukong. Both of which are Persona's wild cards can use. So it's entierly possible there are different versions of Messiah and Izanagi are in the sea of humanity.
Well maybe a specific version of that persona. But Koromaru's persona is cerberus and Ryuji's ultimate persona is Sun Wukong. Both of which are Persona's wild cards can use. So it's entierly possible there are different versions of Messiah and Izanagi are in the sea of humanity.
- 4,256
- 658
- Thread starter
- #330
Big Bang Challenge is not an actual demonstration of a solar system/nebula blowing up...
It's a room sized recreation created from the energy attacks of the robot.
I had this argument with Matt and I don't know if he genuinely doesn't see what I see, so I literally skimmed through frame by frame and took screenshots of all relevant events.
EVENT #1: Robot initiates the attack and stands still. Nothing has changed other than camera angle.
EVENT #2: Lights within the ROOM slowly begin to dim. No, it doesn't just black out immediately.
EVENT #3: Robot is now in a full on bow, room gets progressively darker.
EVENT #4: Room and robot both get blurred and darkens drastically, you can no longer see Joker or the Robot.
EVENT #5: I skipped the stupid flying in burger animation but this stops while the camera begins zooming in on the star/nebula/solar system while it begins to explode and detonate.
EVENT #6: Screen goes white in midst the explosion briefly.
EVENT #7: What's this? You see the damage heart animation begin to play admist the white explosion.
EVENT #8: Light begins to fade away, you can see the Phantom Thieves standing where the center of the explosion occured.
EVENT #9: Light continues to fade away.
EVENT #10: Light has faded away and now the team appears to be in pitch black... perhaps they were actually attacked by a solar system attack?
EVENT #11: Oh wait, the light begins to reilluminate... the room they were in previously.
EVENT #12: Yeah they were in the room the entire time, lol.
It's obvious from perspective and lack of camera swaying/panning that the white explosion that occured was directly beside or in front of the thieves... how large is the explosion? Well it can't be much larger than the room that they were revealed to be residing in the entire time.
TL;DR: Room goes black, explosion, light goes away and reveals they were still in room. Therefore the explosion was a room sized representation of a solar system exploding.
It's a room sized recreation created from the energy attacks of the robot.
I had this argument with Matt and I don't know if he genuinely doesn't see what I see, so I literally skimmed through frame by frame and took screenshots of all relevant events.
EVENT #1: Robot initiates the attack and stands still. Nothing has changed other than camera angle.
EVENT #2: Lights within the ROOM slowly begin to dim. No, it doesn't just black out immediately.
EVENT #3: Robot is now in a full on bow, room gets progressively darker.
EVENT #4: Room and robot both get blurred and darkens drastically, you can no longer see Joker or the Robot.
EVENT #5: I skipped the stupid flying in burger animation but this stops while the camera begins zooming in on the star/nebula/solar system while it begins to explode and detonate.
EVENT #6: Screen goes white in midst the explosion briefly.
EVENT #7: What's this? You see the damage heart animation begin to play admist the white explosion.
EVENT #8: Light begins to fade away, you can see the Phantom Thieves standing where the center of the explosion occured.
EVENT #9: Light continues to fade away.
EVENT #10: Light has faded away and now the team appears to be in pitch black... perhaps they were actually attacked by a solar system attack?
EVENT #11: Oh wait, the light begins to reilluminate... the room they were in previously.
EVENT #12: Yeah they were in the room the entire time, lol.
It's obvious from perspective and lack of camera swaying/panning that the white explosion that occured was directly beside or in front of the thieves... how large is the explosion? Well it can't be much larger than the room that they were revealed to be residing in the entire time.
TL;DR: Room goes black, explosion, light goes away and reveals they were still in room. Therefore the explosion was a room sized representation of a solar system exploding.
- 29
- 3
Wait, what am I missing here? What has Messiah done that makes Makoto 4-A?
Also, Nyx being the top dog of Persona must be a joke. Persona 1-2 cast would pwn her. Don't say she's the top dog when beings like Nyarl have done far more impressive feats of power.
So, Will a change in Ren's profile take place? Will his speed stay the same?
Also, Nyx being the top dog of Persona must be a joke. Persona 1-2 cast would pwn her. Don't say she's the top dog when beings like Nyarl have done far more impressive feats of power.
So, Will a change in Ren's profile take place? Will his speed stay the same?
- 32,327
- 20,219
They were't in the room the whole time nor is it a simulation. All ProfessorLord did was invent an interpretation out of an attack animation that in no way demonstrates or suggests that.
The talk about the Personas not being accepted as scaling to the people who wield them is honestly just ridiculous. Pokémon has nothing to do with this.
The talk about the Personas not being accepted as scaling to the people who wield them is honestly just ridiculous. Pokémon has nothing to do with this.
- 15,636
- 5,391
@Matt
Is the second part directed at Prof, me, or both? Because that's not what I'm suggesting.
Is the second part directed at Prof, me, or both? Because that's not what I'm suggesting.
- 4,256
- 658
- Thread starter
- #334
I just showed you how they were in the room the entire time? I can't help you if you really won't be bothered to go literally see that they were in the room the whole time and the explosion that engulfed them therefore must be room sized.
It doesn't even make sense that they're warped to a nebula and that it explodes and then they're suddenly brought back to the room... on their feet? Where's the lack of gravity? Shouldn't they fall onto the ground rather than reappear standing up?
Also nobody said Personas don't scale to the user. We actually agreed on the opposite like 10 posts above, scroll up.
It doesn't even make sense that they're warped to a nebula and that it explodes and then they're suddenly brought back to the room... on their feet? Where's the lack of gravity? Shouldn't they fall onto the ground rather than reappear standing up?
Also nobody said Personas don't scale to the user. We actually agreed on the opposite like 10 posts above, scroll up.
- 32,327
- 20,219
You literally didn't. The screen goes dark, we see the explosion and then we see the room again. It's just a visual shorthand in JRPGs for shifting to the attack animation. It doesn't mean that it is a simulation and they were in the room all along.
- 2,012
- 266
"It doesn't even make sense that they're warped to a nebula and that it explodes and then they're suddenly brought back to the room... on their feet? Where's the lack of gravity? Shouldn't they fall onto the ground rather than reappear standing up?" You could extend this argument to A lot of JRPG's. Because a lot of JRPG's have enemies still on there feet just making a "damaged" animation for attacks that destroy everything from the ground they are standing on to entier planets and galaxies.
- 33,405
- 8,416
>Still discussing Big Bang Challenge
- 6,104
- 5,101
So we know Lucifer has Morningstar, which Dargoo is willing to calc. That covers late game personas. I think all final arcana personas would scale.
Fool - Vishnu
Magician - Mercurius (scales to Morgana) and Futsunushi
Priestess - Anat (scales to Makoto) and Cybele
Empress - Astarte (scales to Haru) and Mother Harlet
Emperor - Susano'o (scales to Yusuke) and Odin
Hierophant - Kohryu
Lovers - Hecate (scales to Ann) and Ishtar
Chariot - Seiten Taisei (scales to Ryuji) and Chi You
Strength - Zaou Gongen
Hermit - Prometheus (scales to Futaba) and Ongyo-ki
Fortune - Lakshmi
Justice - Metatron and possibly Loki (The Thieves fought a full powered Akechi right before Shido. Scales to Akechi)
Hanged Man - Attis
Death - Alice
Temperance - Ardha
Devil - Beelzebub
Tower - Mada
Star - Lucifer
Moon - Sandalphon
Sun - Asura
Judgment - Satan
The four archangels should scale as they were referred to by Lavenza as very strong opponents and are basically to Yaldabaoth what they are to YHVH in SMT.
The World version Satanael of course would not scale and would instead scale to Yaldy. The Fool version could scale but it is NG+ only and could be written off as game mechanics.
I'm not sure if Kohryu and Lakshmi directly scale since their levels are a bit lower than the 70/80/90 range of the other endgame personas, so they should get a "Likely" maybe. However, I do believe Shiva scales.
Fool - Vishnu
Magician - Mercurius (scales to Morgana) and Futsunushi
Priestess - Anat (scales to Makoto) and Cybele
Empress - Astarte (scales to Haru) and Mother Harlet
Emperor - Susano'o (scales to Yusuke) and Odin
Hierophant - Kohryu
Lovers - Hecate (scales to Ann) and Ishtar
Chariot - Seiten Taisei (scales to Ryuji) and Chi You
Strength - Zaou Gongen
Hermit - Prometheus (scales to Futaba) and Ongyo-ki
Fortune - Lakshmi
Justice - Metatron and possibly Loki (The Thieves fought a full powered Akechi right before Shido. Scales to Akechi)
Hanged Man - Attis
Death - Alice
Temperance - Ardha
Devil - Beelzebub
Tower - Mada
Star - Lucifer
Moon - Sandalphon
Sun - Asura
Judgment - Satan
The four archangels should scale as they were referred to by Lavenza as very strong opponents and are basically to Yaldabaoth what they are to YHVH in SMT.
The World version Satanael of course would not scale and would instead scale to Yaldy. The Fool version could scale but it is NG+ only and could be written off as game mechanics.
I'm not sure if Kohryu and Lakshmi directly scale since their levels are a bit lower than the 70/80/90 range of the other endgame personas, so they should get a "Likely" maybe. However, I do believe Shiva scales.
- 33,405
- 8,416
I vaguely remember Kohryu being more of a tanky Persona with okay offense and good support. Am I remembering correctly?
- 6,104
- 5,101
Yeah, he's pretty good. But if you know what you're doing you can finish the Hierophant arcana before Sae's Palace. Then again you can get Seiten Taisei for Ryuji before Kaneshiro.... game mechanics that are woven into the plot. How troublesome...
As far other personas that might scale, Abaddon and Lilith should too. Abaddon is a boss in Mementos depths and Lilith is a recurring shadow in the Qliphoth World.
As far other personas that might scale, Abaddon and Lilith should too. Abaddon is a boss in Mementos depths and Lilith is a recurring shadow in the Qliphoth World.
- 32,327
- 20,219
Disgaea, Mugen Souls and Neptunia are outright self-aware with this trope.John985 said:
It's just a thing that happens in every JRPG ever.
- 6,104
- 5,101
Also the other Phantom Thieves do scale to Yaldy. He fused Mementos and Reality while still as the Holy Grail, which the Phantom Thieves defeated. Then he transformed to his full form and stomped them (they could only destroy his arms which he constantly can regenerate).
- 29
- 3
Ok, I think we should stop talking about BB Challenge. It's obvious we're getting nowhere with this. Imo and in the opinion of other people, the attack is an actual real Galaxy level move, but like Professor, some people don't believe that. So imo we should disconsider it as a Galaxy level move (not even the Wiki considers that, and there's no problem with that).
And btw, Satanael IS NOT a World Arcana Persona. NG+ Satanael and endgame story Satanael are both Fools.
And btw, Satanael IS NOT a World Arcana Persona. NG+ Satanael and endgame story Satanael are both Fools.
- 6,104
- 5,101
@Thiag
That contradicts the Persona story, sorry. The endgame Satanael was achieved through harnessing the power of the people's bonds within Joker. It is the same as Yu's Izanagi-no-Okami. After the boss, Lavenza even reveals that Joker awakened the World Arcana through awakening Satanael. It is most certainly a World Arcana persona that's final boss only. The NG+ Satanael is the highest persona of the Fool Arcana instead of Vishnu but that's only NG+
That contradicts the Persona story, sorry. The endgame Satanael was achieved through harnessing the power of the people's bonds within Joker. It is the same as Yu's Izanagi-no-Okami. After the boss, Lavenza even reveals that Joker awakened the World Arcana through awakening Satanael. It is most certainly a World Arcana persona that's final boss only. The NG+ Satanael is the highest persona of the Fool Arcana instead of Vishnu but that's only NG+
- 29
- 3
I'm saying endgame Satanael is of the Fool Arcana because Joker didn't unlock The World until the Metaverse was destroyed and Yaldabaoth died, and that was after he summoned Satanael IIRC. Can you confirm that? And also I don't recall Lavenza saying he unlocked The World through awakening his Ultimate Persona. She said the World represented the end of his journey. She may have said more things, but I'm sure she didn't talk about Satanael.
- 4,256
- 658
- Thread starter
- #348
I'm fine with teleporting characters to an exploding sun and having them teleport back to the fighting arena. I'm not fine with this explosion clearly being limited to the confines of the room, which the Phantom Thieves are obviously in at the end of the attack (which is when the explosion actually occurs).Matthew Schroeder said:
At the end of the day I'll leave it up in the air for people to decide. Like Kaltias said (in chat, might have been mistakened for another green name), if there is nothing that references the attack animation than itself, it's likely not canon.
So currently we are at:
Early Game - 9-A (Based on the Yusuke calc. People tried to say it was tier 7 but then when the reasoning was because of palace feats everbody started to throw up at the thought of palace creation feat)
Mid Game - ???
Late Game - (Insert Morningstar Calc here, applies to all end-game Persona's and those at comparable levels at the earliest they can be fused, so all level ~80 Persona.)
Satanael(The World)/Yalda - 2-C (Merged two separate universes/space time contiuums via the will of mankind, Yalda himself also directly runs and attacks off of this vague energy)
- 32,327
- 20,219
Literally only ProfessorLord and Dargoo I think disagreed with Palace feats. Everyone else was fine.
- 32,327
- 20,219
Yup. So I see this thread as being dragged endlessly.Edwellken said:
- 4,256
- 658
- Thread starter
- #354
Read what I said, you guys said it was valid but the moment I ask for an explanation YOU sweep it under the rug, not I.Edwellken said:
- 15,636
- 5,391
Yes, I agree with the Palace feats. I wanted to talk about the scaling, which was sort of dropped when we went all Ourboros and started eating our rear-ends by going back to square one.
- 32,327
- 20,219
okay so in order for there to be progression:
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH WITH BIG BANG CHALLENGE TALK
Let it be decided by majority. Move forward with something that isn't related to Palaces or Okumura.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH WITH BIG BANG CHALLENGE TALK
Let it be decided by majority. Move forward with something that isn't related to Palaces or Okumura.
- 15,636
- 5,391
Can we at least discuss the scaling of the Palace feats to Offensive Capabilities/Dura/Striking Strength?
We already decided Okumura's Palace Feat shouldn't scale as he doesn'y directly attack anyone, and we were in the middle of debating weather Futaba should scale with her palace when this happened.
We already decided Okumura's Palace Feat shouldn't scale as he doesn'y directly attack anyone, and we were in the middle of debating weather Futaba should scale with her palace when this happened.
- 32,327
- 20,219
We didn't decide that?
- 33,405
- 8,416
We are kinda waiting for Morning Star to be calced as well.
- 15,636
- 5,391
No. I was discussing it with Ed, and intended on finishing the discussion, then the topic changed.
@Dragon It might take a bit.
@Dragon It might take a bit.
