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Persona 1 and 2 tier revision

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Genericstickman said:
Don't we consider Dissidia characters to be different from the canon versions? The exception to this being Gilgamesh who canonically has a weapon made out of the nails of Dissidia Chaos
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We only accept Dissidia to be canon to the 1st FF. Not all of them, unlike The Q series which is canon to P2EP-5 due to them all sharing a single timeline sans P3P which also is canon due to Theo and FeMC showing up. That said how did we end up scaling the 1-2 cast to 3-5 in the 1st place?
 
The "every bubble/soul is able to create universes" is the same nonsense that got us this.
 
The energy to create these universes has to be contained in these bubbles, and it's no use sending an example that has nothing to do with this question to try to ridicule me, to create something needs an equivalent energy, and that's not my opinion is the logic. .

We have an example of this in P1 with Maki creating her own world.
 
TBF, ALRF was the one who put that "Dreams/Futures = Universe" thing on there.

If there's a problem with it, it should be brought up to him on it. Though he doesn't go by ALRF anymore here but as SleepyTBubble.
 
Dreams/future do = universes, but it's assuming that because the number of the human population is 7+ billion, that justifies an outright 2-B rating, when at best it's an implication for a "possibly". But more on that later. Same with Persona. Assuming it scales to any of these characters is ridiculous. The CU is like the Axiom, yet we don't see SMT Messiahs being High 1-C now do we?
 
I think topics should revolve around actual feats from P1 that were discussed earlier instead of trying to scale people to the CU itself. I agree with the above posts' analogy. It seems fruitless to continue down this path.
 
If 2-B isn't accepted, then there's a possible 2-C feat via Maki affected both her "ideal" universe and the real world in P1, along with the Deva Machine. And Kandori's statement of destroying all dimensions, in this case dimensions likely refers to universes and not Tier 1 shenanigans. I'm thinking 2-C could be possible for P1-P2, and then just Low 2-C for P3-P5.
 
So...

P1-P2: At least 2-C (Maki affected both her ideal universe and the real world, and Kandori mentioned that her ideal world is a real universe, complete with its own space-time. Fought Kandori, who has achieved power enough to destroy all "dimensions" even without the Deva Machine), possibly 2-B (*insert reasoning here*)

P3-P5: At least Low 2-C (Via Joker and Yaldabaoth scaling)

While their tiers don't scale, I still think that the newly added hax of the P3-5 people should be added to the P1-2 people also. Also, the P1 and P2 gang have a lot of more hax abilties to be added but that's for another time.
 
Sera EX said:
Assuming it scales to any of these characters is ridiculous. The CU is like the Axiom, yet we don't see SMT Messiahs being High 1-C now do we?
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I thought that Tatsuya and his friends used their souls and the power of the CU to create a new world? Unless that doesn't count as scaling.
 
There is nothing suggesting that

yes, I know that, reason why "It could be", to be fair, there's nothing stating that it's the same Igor besides the big nose he has lmao.
 
So basically low 2-C due to Maki's feat and possibly 2-B due to the "countless" term being used by Nanjo?
 
Well, straight up 2-C maybe, since it was stated that Maki could have destroyed the real universe and her ideal world, and the fact that Kandori had power over "all dimensions" point to 2-C. 2-B, as what Sera said, is only a possibility so yes, possibly only.

This shouldn't scale to the modern Persona gang, so they stay at Low 2-C via Yaldabaoth scaling.
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
Honestly, i never understood where the whole Administrator stuff comes from, but that's not the topic of this thread.

On topic, this would result in "At least 2-C" P1 and 2 right?
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That's just one of the absurd reasons why people scaled Persona 1 and 2 to Persona 3 to 5 which is absolutely ridiculous, at best these other Admins are only comparable to the Trapezohedron conceptual gods that Tatsuya defeated, the other one is attempting to scale Nyx to the creation of CU which has been debunked multiple times. CU was created by the ancient humans and people like Randolph Carter and guess what who defeated him? ******* Nyarlathotep himself.
 
Nyarly also treated Kandori like a puppet, and Kandori stated he has power over "all dimensions", so Nyarlathotep is really powerful.
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
Nyarly also treated Kandori like a puppet, and Kandori stated he has power over "all dimensions", so Nyarlathotep is really powerful.
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I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Philemon and Nyarlathotep really ended up being 2-B.
 
2-B is only a possibility for now, but I suggest we look into it more. The Cosmology seems pretty intricate after all. I am definitely not proposing we instantly apply 2-B to P1-P2, but I suggest we look into it more first.

I think dismissing 2-B outright is wrong, but applying it immediately is also wrong. For now, 2-C seems the best with 2-B being only a possibility for Paleo Persona for now.
 
Still the question about the Greek gods that I had mentioned in another post, I will copy my comment

"Thanatos is the Greek god of death and has control of own underworld, the tartarus, which is basically the dead world for Personas itself and a prison. Whenever someone dies in Thanatos tower their Persona is sent to the tartarus and sealed there, requiring the characters to physically enter the tartarus to rescue their personas, Yuriko's explanation is that when someone dies, in exchange for the characters remaining alive she / Thanatos mows their personas' lives and imprisons them in the tartarus, so Thanatos must be strong enough to kill a persona and the tartarus must be strong enough to prevent them from escaping without outside help. http://imgur.com/a/5cJve97

Already in the Hypnos Tower we came across the sleeping god Hypnos, those who entered his tower immediately slept, and just like Thanatos, Hypnos also had his own kingdom known as Dream World, in this world Hypnos made people's dreams come true, almost like physical realities, so much so that Eriko says that it was authentic reality in every aspect, every person in the dream world had their own version of reality, one of those realities is "cited" as a universe http://imgur.com/a/4lI2h4J

And although it seems very hyperbolic by the way it was said, on another occasion we met the tower keeper, Kumi and Hypnos, who in his version of reality could see galaxies in the background, thus making the realities / dreams created by Hypnos would to be indeed universes.

Screenshot 20190730-140033
Screenshot 20190730-140315
Snow Queen who had the 3 gods under her command, merely the guardians she can give to those who made a pact with her, but nevertheless Snow Queen was not the real villain of this route but Night Queen who apparently was also manipulating Snow Queen to bring her eternal night.

And after all I've said, the whole SQQ route goes chronologically before the SEBEC route (main route where we fought Kandori and Pandora), so much so that Mark asks Naoya to help him get into the SEBEC building (basically the beginning of the SEBEC route), in fact Night Queen itself is made from fragments of Maki and Kandori."
 
So that alone is already 2-B/2-C, but then that's just the first part of the scaling chain, huh? That means the scaling chain from that all the way to Persona 2 and the aged up P1 cast and then to Nyarlathotep is ginormous.
 
Zer00Negativo said:
Still the question about the Greek gods that I had mentioned in another post, I will copy my comment

"Thanatos is the Greek god of death and has control of own underworld, the tartarus, which is basically the dead world for Personas itself and a prison. Whenever someone dies in Thanatos tower their Persona is sent to the tartarus and sealed there, requiring the characters to physically enter the tartarus to rescue their personas, Yuriko's explanation is that when someone dies, in exchange for the characters remaining alive she / Thanatos mows their personas' lives and imprisons them in the tartarus, so Thanatos must be strong enough to kill a persona and the tartarus must be strong enough to prevent them from escaping without outside help. http://imgur.com/a/5cJve97

Already in the Hypnos Tower we came across the sleeping god Hypnos, those who entered his tower immediately slept, and just like Thanatos, Hypnos also had his own kingdom known as Dream World, in this world Hypnos made people's dreams come true, almost like physical realities, so much so that Eriko says that it was authentic reality in every aspect, every person in the dream world had their own version of reality, one of those realities is "cited" as a universe http://imgur.com/a/4lI2h4J

And although it seems very hyperbolic by the way it was said, on another occasion we met the tower keeper, Kumi and Hypnos, who in his version of reality could see galaxies in the background, thus making the realities / dreams created by Hypnos would to be indeed universes.
Click to expand...
Screenshot 20190730-140315
Snow Queen who had the 3 gods under her command, merely the guardians she can give to those who made a pact with her, but nevertheless Snow Queen was not the real villain of this route but Night Queen who apparently was also manipulating Snow Queen to bring her eternal night.

And after all I've said, the whole SQQ route goes chronologically before the SEBEC route (main route where we fought Kandori and Pandora), so much so that Mark asks Naoya to help him get into the SEBEC building (basically the beginning of the SEBEC route), in fact Night Queen itself is made from fragments of Maki and Kandori."

So if anyone can't properly refute this then this means Persona 1 and 2 are indeed 2-B?
 
It's worth noting that Yuriko can also send Personas to Tartarus at will, without the need for people to die btw. The party even managing to beat her was by pure CIS via her subconsciously wanting to lose iirc.

Anyway, can someone post links or screenshots to where the alternate dimensions mentioned are confirmed to be actual universes? I think this can be wrapped up pretty quickly if that's the case.
 
Edwellken said:
It's worth noting that Yuriko can also send Personas to Tartarus at will, without the need for people to die btw. The party even managing to beat her was by pure CIS via her subconsciously wanting to lose iirc.

Anyway, can someone post links or screenshots to where the alternate dimensions mentioned are confirmed to be actual universes? I think this can be wrapped up pretty quickly if that's the case.
Click to expand...
Here.
https://m.imgur.com/a/4lI2h4J
 
You guys love assuming realities = universes (separate space-times) don't you? If that's the case, time to upgrade Bleach to 2-C!

>Statement: "My will is God's will. The will of the universe. Don't you see?"

>Response: "This is a universe".

That's now how it works.
 
Don't bring false equivalencies in here, please.

If there is a reason you believe it's unreasonable to assume realities refer to universes, then present that.


Because they literally says "the power that created your world is the same as your inner strenght" and then further explain that statement with the "souls can make realities" statement... rather obvious connection.


Later, after paraller reality is mentioned they use the "many worlds theory" to explain endless similiar worlds existing.
 
Which scan are you referring to? Because these ain't it chief.

And don't start with the "false equivalence" reaction. No one is seriously comparing Bleach realms to textbook "reality" definitions. Stop.
 
In all seriousness, P1 and P2 casts are fine for a 2-C (perhaps 2-B) rating. I'm not denying that. But if P3 to P5 gets upgraded (without a better careful analysis), that's when we have a problem. That's literally the only reason I'm on this thread (because otherwise I wouldn't be here...I was asked to drop by here, even though I strongly did not want to). So that's my take.
 
I'll start with it alright, that comment has that is about all the credibility it has to it, beyond saying that "worlds" and "universes" don't automatically equate... which they are equated with pretty clearly.

I was talking the one about the many worlds explaination, and the one where it states an alternate timeline will be created (tough the latter seemed more like them just substituting the already exsiting one).
 
@Ricsi

I missed that one (it was in the OP) which I reread after your reply. Sorry about that.
 
I forgot to mention, killing a persona is not an easy task, killing a person is not enough to kill your persona, we have an example of this in P5 where it is possible to summon Messiah and Orpheus with the protagonist of 3 already dead, in fact We have an example of this also in P1 where Yamaoka dies (butler Nanjo), but sometime later Yamaoka becomes Nanjo's final persona, so I think Thanatos can interact with CU and kill the bubbles directly, we have a mention in the guidebook that personas are born in CU, so this theory might make sense
 
So how is it decided whether a statement is enough for 1000 universes? That seems pretty arbitrary. In this case how would it even be decided?
 
It really comes down to whether we take the "Many worlds" theory brought up by Nanjo at face value. He's referring to the real life Many Worlds interpretatio which would make Kandori and Pandora's feats 2-B if it applies to Persona.
 
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