Persona 1 and 2 tier revision

[Dziga]

Not really. Schnee agreed and all of the active Persona knowledgeable members agreed, more staff input is unnecessary, but if you want to contact Sera, by all means, you're free to do so.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

For the record, this should only scale to Tatsuya and Naoya, not P3-5.

 

[Dziga]

It scales to Nyx and Yalda at the very least.

 

[Edwellken]

For the record, this should only scale to Tatsuya and Naoya, not P3-5.

I was wondering why people were scaling it to them but never got an actual answer besides "It does". (granted it sounded like it was discussed elsewhere but I wasn't there for that)

also @The 2nd Existential Seed, slow down your edits, you've made several mistakes that I've had to fix on some of the profiles.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Fair enough. But that was the last page anyways. So I have nothing left to edit.

 

[Edwellken]

Either way this definitely should have been discussed and accepted by more people before upgrading the entire verse to 2-B

 

[Dziga]

I added justifications to Nyap's page since he is the one everyone scales from 2-B, so fix any error I may have committed.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

For the record, this should only scale to Tatsuya and Naoya, not P3-5.

That... Actually makes sense. Why didn't I think of that? The Collective Unconsciousness in P1-P2 is vastly different than the one in P3-5 due tk the P2 era one having an even higher area: The Kadath Mandala. Maki could access it with her sheer willpower, as I've explained in the Scaling Chain Thread. Also, the Collective Unconsciousness in Person 5 is the Mementos, which is pretty different from P1-P2.

Huh, so looks like the P1-P2 guys are stronger than the P3-5 guys again.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

They always were, we just didn't acknowledge it.

 

[Dziga]

I agree since I'm a massive Persona 2 fanboy

 

[Zer00Negativo]

For the record, this should only scale to Tatsuya and Naoya, not P3-5.

Igor mentions that the arcana universe is the greatest power he has ever seen, so he would put him above the characters of P1 and P2.

In P5 Igor is defeated by Yald, and Igor in P1 and P2 was stronger than basicamenye all bosses (except Nyar), bosses like Kandori, Pandora, Thanatos, Yog-sothoth, Hypnos and others all based. to be 2-B, so Yald and Joker would scale to 2-B.

In P1 there is no such thing as the protagonist being differentiated and stronger, everyone has the same level of power.

 

[Edwellken]

Igor is featless. Why would you assume him to be stronger than anything in P1?

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

RIP Persona vs Fate matches

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Igor is featless. Why would you assume him to be stronger than anything in P1?

Because he is the one who creates his personas, he is strong enough to create personas capable of subduing these bosses.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Igor also stated that Maki was pretty much the strongest Persona user, since she could enter Kadath Mandala, and he literally compared her to the First Persona users, who made the Collective Unconsciousness. So Maki is the strongest, comparable to the First Humans and Randalph Carter aka the Legendary Persona user, and yet Nyarlathotep atill beat him.

Besides, Igor has no feats. I'm now starting to doubt on how P3-5 scales to P1-2 when they never interacted and the world was reset as well.

If anything, Igor's statement could maybe refer to Minato being the strongest in Modern Persona, but not P1-P2.

 

[Dziga]

Persona 1 takes place years before Persona 3 though.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

We should probably also add on new abilities for characters like Tatsuya, Maya, ETC. because they should have abilities that most other Persona users have.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Shouldn't we assume the strongest as in "everything Igor's seen" unless explicitly implied otherwise, especially if what you said Igor knows of the P1-P2 Protagonists and compares them to another and still calls said other stronger ? That seems as blatant as it could be IMO

 

[Edwellken]

Because he is the one who creates his personas, he is strong enough to create personas capable of subduing these bosses.

Igor doesn't create the Personas. It's more like granting access to them via fusion than anything. Of course there's nothing really saying he can't use the personas he creates but he's never been shown to do so.

 

[Edwellken]

RIP Persona vs Fate matches

GOOD

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Also to note: Igor also says that Maki is comparable to the First Humans, who made the Collective Unconsciousness. If anything, this means the First Humans are comparable to True Nyx, or slightly inferior. Maki, being able to enter Kadath Mandala like the First Humans without any help and by sheer force of will, this means Maki is on that level as well.

Although I guess we could scale modern Persona to old Persona, but their Collective Unconsciousness places are pretty different...

Head on here if you want to see my reasonings for P2 and Maki stuff: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3322658?useskin=oasis

 

[Ranzuki]

Igor mentions that the arcana universe is the greatest power he has ever seen, so he would put him above the characters of P1 and P2.

In P5 Igor is defeated by Yald, and Igor in P1 and P2 was stronger than basicamenye all bosses (except Nyar), bosses like Kandori, Pandora, Thanatos, Yog-sothoth, Hypnos and others all based. to be 2-B, so Yald and Joker would scale to 2-B.

In P1 there is no such thing as the protagonist being differentiated and stronger, everyone has the same level of power.

He merely mentions Arcana which means absolutely nothing and not a measure of direct power, Maki is still by far the strongest Persona user stated by Igor as well. Tatsuya and Maya has feats that backs up their strength. Also the new Persona 2 PSP EP scenario was written in 2012 while Persona 3 was released in 2006.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

In P1 he does not merge personas because in the game you get no personas or demons but only mere cards, and he fuses these cards and life to a real persona.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

and you can't even use these cards to fight because they are just that, lifeless cards.

 

[Edwellken]

I'm aware. He isn't just creating them from nothing is the point. In fact just about everything that goes into persona fusion/summoning/creation besides the method comes from the user themselves.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

>RIP Fate VS Persona matches

Well, 2-B Fate might also be a thing if that revision thread gets wrapped up... Then again, last I saw they were talking about 2-A...

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Also what

What's this about Igor not merging cards or Personas

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Where in the manga of "Megami" does it describe Maki as the strongest Persona user ? I'm pretty well versed but never knew about that statement at all.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

It's in the Eternal Punishment Tatsuya Scenario, released in the remake of Eternal Punishment.

Maki was literally compared to the first humans, aka the same ones who made the Collective Unconsciousness by accident. Also, Tatsuya managed to use the power of the Collective Unconsciousness (Which was already established as 2-B), yet he still couldn't compare to Maki.

Here, translations: https://pastebin.com/uiqvLAcV and https://p2px-scenario.tumblr.com/post/123883917483/part-3-gone-without-a-trace-section-a

 

[Antvasima]

Seed started to mass-upgrade the tiers of the Persona profiles while referring to this thread, even though no staff members have evaluated and accepted the change. This is technically a very bannable offense.

 

[Ranzuki]

Seed started to mass-upgrade the tiers of the Persona profiles while referring to this thread, even though no staff members have evaluated and accepted the change. This is technically a very bannable offense.

I'm even more surprised that people tried to upgrade Persona 3 to 5 characters as 2-B when the upgrade is intentionally for Persona 1 and 2 characters only. Even worse is Persona 1 didn't even get an actual upgrade on their page despite the fact it has Maki Sonomura who is supposed to be the strongest Persona user in the entire franchise.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to revert all of the changes then? There are quite a lot of them.

 

[Sera_EX]

Has someone lost their mind? 2-B? Talk of 2-A??? And people have just glossed over it like "yeah, totally plausible"? What has happened to us lately...

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed. Technically Seed should probably get a temporary ban for this, as it is not good if our members think that they can freely do these sort of things that are very much against our rules.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that I reverted all of the Persona edits. If I missed any, feel free to help out by reverting them.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I did it because someone told me they had full staff support, as I mentioned above. If I knew they didn't I wouldn't have edited them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then, but there is no input from staff members authorised to evaluate content revisions above, and this also seems unreliable based on Sera's comment.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hmm... I'll let the others dedend their position of the upgrade. Almost getting banned made me not want to involve myself with this thread for a while, but good luck everyone.

 

[Ranzuki]

Okay then, but there is no input from staff members authorised to evaluate content revisions above, and this also seems unreliable based on Sera's comment.

Honestly, I'd rather see an actual explanation why this is unreliable. I actually asked her regarding this a month ago but she doesn't seem to have any opinion at all.

 

[Sera_EX]

I've never been a fan of jumping the gun. People see references to a higher tier and automatically cling onto it without actually looking through the glass and seeing how exactly it holds up. That's why our profiles are in such bad shape and based mostly on hearsay except for the verses that get the strictest treatment. Imagine if scientists took every outlier (and I'm using that term with it's most basic definition) as the definitive, disregarding all previous experiments and hypotheses? It's no different here.