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Persona 1 and 2 tier revision

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As I said before, countless in context is infinite for two reasons:

  • 1: The theory Nanjo refers to is a theory with infinite universes.
  • 2: Each person in the world could generate his universe and in each of these universes there will also be people who could generate more universes (and so infinitely), a proof of this is that in Maki's universe it was possible to access the collective unconscious and there you find Maki who again mentions that there are countless bubbles (souls / minds / people)
but I also agree that it is not a solid assumption, so I think "possibly 2-A" a better option

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1. We've already dismissed Nanjo's statement. How many times do I have to explain that it is in no way legitimate? The theory that Nanjo is referring to is a real-life theory, and has no basis on whether or not it actually applies to his situation in the context of the game. Unless you're actually crazy enough to be arguing for 1-C Persona, which is what would happen if said theory applied fully. At best, it was said only to note the similarities between what Nanjo knew, and what he observed.

2. At best, this is countably infinite, but it is much more solidly extremely high into 2-B than it is flat-out 2-A. Therefore, as things are, it will be listed as "2-B, possibly 2-A".
 
Yes: the "Many Worlds" interpretation consists of every universe constantly splitting into new timelines each second for every possibility. While this can keep going forever, the number of universes/timelines will always be a finite one, no matter how big it gets.

So 2-B regardless.
 
P3: Igor is amazed at the arcane power of The Universe, and says he had never seen such a powerful card (such a great power), and Makoto with that card sealed the way for Nyx. Nyx's mere psyche was responsible for creating the collective Unconscious

P4: I think no one

P5: Yaldabaoth would merge the human world with the metaverse, in addition to defeating Igor, the same Igor who was strong enough to create personas that defeated the bosses of P1e P2.
 
Zer00Negativo said:
Nyx's mere psyche was responsible for creating the collective Unconscious
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I thought this was discredited as not direct creation but indirect creation? And either way, I remember people saying this isn't actually a feat, and shouldn't be used to judge Nyx's power. In an older yet recent Persona revision thread, this was debated on and thus the thing about Nyx being above Yaldy was removed.

But the Universe Arcana being "a power Igor has never seen before" works as a reasoning for the scaling to P3, but that would imply Minato is the top dog of all protags. Then again, he did like, die after a few months but still, its a testament to his power.
 
Nyx created indirectly in the unintended sense, and not that he can't do it on his own, when Nyx collided on the planet he left fragments of his power behind, and those fragments resonated with Earth's microbial life form and created the collective unconscious, and in addition ALL in the franchise is part of Nyx, shadows, personas, the very power to invoke personas and even mere thoughts of death, Nyx exists within everyone, it turns out these revisions are not considering the guidebook official (or not all) where you have this information.

And Minato dying doesn't disqualify the feat, he is probably the strongest protagonist but only with the arcane universe where he only has one skill that is fatal yet.
 
Dziga said:
Isn't merging two time-spaces considered Low Multiversal?
Click to expand...
the metaverse seems to have a similar existence to the collective unconscious, the Velvet Room itself has been sealed within it, and the Velvet room is interconnected with many (if not all) universes.
 
Huh. At first I heard people saying Nyx isn't the top dog, and now I'm hearing the opposite.

We have got to sort out this whole Nyx mess soon, but not here since this is a P1 and P2 thread.

Anyways, if most are in agreement, should we wait more or start applying it to the (admittedly barebones) P2 profiles? Tatsuya should also get the hax of the other P3-5 characters, mainly the whole soul/mind thing and maybe Subjective Reality things?
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
We have got to sort out this whole Nyx mess soon, but not here since this is a P1 and P2 thread.
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This. I've been meaning to ask this on the general persona discussion thread, but we really should sort out our scaling chains better.
 
I don't even know how anyone in the franchise can be stronger than Nyx if they only have that power thanks to Nyx.

At first this is just a tier review, for skills the right thing was to add the skills mentioned in the guide (like the space-time manipulation that every shadow and persona user should have)
 
We've already established that Nyx is not the top-dog.

Zer00, I highly suggest going through the previous CRTs for a more in-depth explanation.

But for the sake of recap, here's a TL;DR:

  • Nyx did not create the CU, the ancient humans did. The power was in them the whole time, just that it didn't take form as the CU until Nyx scared them enough into evolving their psyches.
  • The only thing Nyx did was incite them into forming it as a self-defense mechanism. An analogy would be Character A mindhaxing Character B into blowing up the universe. Character B would be the one receiving a 3-A rating, not Character A.
 
One more thing I wanted to mention, the fact that Pandora's Box had all the evils of the world would be some kind of conceptual manipulation / destruction?
 
I'm going to need help making the scaling chain for Paleo-Persona. P3 and onwards is handled, and I can vaguely guess where the big players like Tatsuya go, but I'm clueless regarding P1 and the specifics of P2.
 
>Paleo-Persona

I like that term. Anyways, I can try to help out! Although I don't know if I'll be free to make a massive blog but I can certainly help there.
 
I'm feeling like it's better to just make a whole CRT dedicated to settling the scaling chain, with how much discussion is bound to occur. If Sera were still active, this'd be easy...
 
P1-P2 are definitely affected by this. P3-P5 also to an extent due to the whole Administrator thing.

Also yeah, Sera's an expert on all 5 Persona games, I feel you.
 
Practically everyone is affected save for bosses and characters that die off by the late-game.

Basically everyone on the current verse page, except for Akechi and Shido.
 
Solacis said:
The nature of human souls is explained to have the potential to create new realities. It is only because the P2 cast at that point in time possessed the level of inner strength that they did that it would work at all.
"You, who possess strong wills, have a unique energy that can reshape reality."

It isn't to say that just any human soul can reshape reality, but only those with strong enough wills. Maki, as well as the P2 cast, were only able to do so because of their powerful wills. This fits in with the mechanics of Cognition that came up later in P5, just on a larger scale. At most, this would mean that the Collective Unconscious would be theoretically capable of creating an infinite amount of 4-dimensional space-time continuums, but that's only theoretically.

Based on what we know for sure, we have 3 confirmed 4D space-times:

  1. Pre-Timeline Reset (P1 to P2:IS)
  2. Maki's Alternate Timeline
  3. Post-Timeline Reset (P2:EP to P5 and onwards)
If there are references to other timelines in P1, then it'd be a higher-end of 2-C, but Nanjo's mention of "countless similar worlds" doesn't count, because he doesn't actually know if they exist or not, only that it's possible they do, and even then, he doesn't know how many.

That said, if we do consider the Collective Unconscious to have enough energy to support the creation of any and all potential universes humanity can create, it would be considered 2-B, possibly even 2-A.

However, whether or not the Administrators can use that potential energy is up for serious debate.

On another note...

Speaking of the Administrators, based on the quotes above, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are not literally the Collective Unconscious. They are, in Philemon's words, "incarnations". Incarnations are defined as embodiments of something. It only implies Abstract Existence (Type 2) dependent on the Collective Unconscious. It gives them control over it, and allows them to survive as long as it exists, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're literally the same thing.

Semantics, but it might become important to keep this in mind.
Click to expand...
I agree with pretty much everything here.
 
I don't even disagree with the upgrades and I'm all for this, but this is gonna cause nothing but trouble if we just upgrade it without staff consent
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
I thought Schnee agreed ?
If not... Why the flip would you tell me yes if we had no staff approval ?
Click to expand...
Wasn't aware that Schnee was a staff member because idk what red names are

I agree with the upgrades, but I'm not a staff member. We need more staff approval than just one guy. Like get Sera or someone on this.
 
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