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Persona fans are jumping the gun with upgrades and cross game scaling and this needs to stop.
Our persona profiles are awful and a joke.
Our persona profiles are awful and a joke.
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Persona 1 and 2 tier revision
- Thread starter Zer00Negativo
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No idea why people are saying they've lost their minds or the profiles are awful. If they spent this much time with all the other CRTs, then simply tell them what's wrong then starting with that.
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I understand where Matt's coming from. I'd say I agree but it came off as aggressive.
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Reading again through this thread, this was handled in a awful way.
While people did agree with the upgrade to 2-B, there was almost a non existant amount of discussion about why it scales to anything but P1 and P2.
And a upgrade this massive needs a lot more staff approval than was given here (Which basically boils down to Schnee saying "if it's countless, then it's 2-B", not even a comment on the actual upgrade)
Then there's also the fact that P5R is like 2 months away from release, so releasing this upgrade now makes things a lot more convoluted, but that's a topic for another time
TL;DR these profiles need ro be more organized, otherwise things will get out of hand.
While people did agree with the upgrade to 2-B, there was almost a non existant amount of discussion about why it scales to anything but P1 and P2.
And a upgrade this massive needs a lot more staff approval than was given here (Which basically boils down to Schnee saying "if it's countless, then it's 2-B", not even a comment on the actual upgrade)
TL;DR these profiles need ro be more organized, otherwise things will get out of hand.
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As usual, I would appreciate help with making the Persona profiles more reliable, rather than simply saying that they are awful. At least I took the time to revert all of these changes.
That said, I essentially agree with Sera, but still think that we have gradually managed to make a large part of our over 20000 profiles considerably more reliable over the years, through an awful lot of hard work. Everything here is a work in progress, but it is impossible to just wave a magic wand to make all profiles entirely accurate, as much as I would really like to be able to do that.
That said, I essentially agree with Sera, but still think that we have gradually managed to make a large part of our over 20000 profiles considerably more reliable over the years, through an awful lot of hard work. Everything here is a work in progress, but it is impossible to just wave a magic wand to make all profiles entirely accurate, as much as I would really like to be able to do that.
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I honestly don't think the Persona profiles are awful. I think that, with some small ajustments and more organization, they can even be great.
Maybe my standards are low, idk.
Maybe my standards are low, idk.
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Not really helpful to just call them awful in a vague manner and posit no arguments to expound on your claim. Pretty much did the samee for the P5 stuff.
Also would help if staff was more involved in the stuff. The listed mods for approval are very slim for persona and discussion is typically between members and less than a handful of staff. That being said the change to profiles was def pre-mature, but it also shouldn't take several months and reference to some ephemeral blog happening to get discussion of potential changes going.
Also would help if staff was more involved in the stuff. The listed mods for approval are very slim for persona and discussion is typically between members and less than a handful of staff. That being said the change to profiles was def pre-mature, but it also shouldn't take several months and reference to some ephemeral blog happening to get discussion of potential changes going.
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Also, I said on numerous occasions that I'm not stopping people from revising the verse due to my blog. I'm fine with revisions.
It's not my fault that I'm an adult with responsibilities. A parent, a wife, an older sister, I have higher priorities. Plus, I on average tale my time when reviewing materials for any revision. That's why I've yet to upgrade Ninja Gaiden/Dead or Alive. I'm evaluating all the info and seeing how it holds up. Same with Saint Seiya and Senshinkan.
I bet most of you don't even know P1 and P2 cosmology doesn't apply to P3 to P5 as the result of Persona 3 being a literal soft reboot that altered certain aspects of the Persona cosmology and separated it from the Megami Tensei Multiverse.
It's not my fault that I'm an adult with responsibilities. A parent, a wife, an older sister, I have higher priorities. Plus, I on average tale my time when reviewing materials for any revision. That's why I've yet to upgrade Ninja Gaiden/Dead or Alive. I'm evaluating all the info and seeing how it holds up. Same with Saint Seiya and Senshinkan.
I bet most of you don't even know P1 and P2 cosmology doesn't apply to P3 to P5 as the result of Persona 3 being a literal soft reboot that altered certain aspects of the Persona cosmology and separated it from the Megami Tensei Multiverse.
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Seeing as people are finally pointing out the flaws of this revision, I feel much more comfortable in saying that the 2-B argument is absolute bullshit.
I never agreed to it in the first place, only saying that it was possible if a certain statement could be taken to its logical extreme, but people just kept hanging onto the one supporting argument that made it logical, so in the end I just had to roll with it.
First off, the 2-B reasoning relies entirely on the assumption that the Collective Unconscious holds all of the potential energy needed for every contributing human soul to create universes as they see fit if they had the mental strength to tap into it.
Then secondly, there's the issue of assuming that even if that previous assumption were treated as fact, that the created universes would then have their own sets of humans that would then contribute further into the strength of the CU. This isn't taking into account the fact that unless those universes' humans retroactively always existed preceding the point of their creation by a human from a different time and space, then the CU wouldn't have access to their souls, because they don't even exist yet.
Thirdly, EVEN IF the previous two assumptions are accepted somehow, we have NO reason to assume that any character has absolute access to all of the aforementioned power. Not even the Administrators. After all, if Yaldabaoth went through so much trouble just to fuse Reality and the Metaverse, despite already being an Administrator, which according to the arguments above, should be strong enough to do it with ridiculous ease.
Lastly, the word "Countless" gets thrown around so much when I've already debunked the legitimacy of the one statement containing it.
At this point, I'm tired of this CRT. Things got out of hand so quickly and I realized too late. I have too much going on IRL to bother with continuing to correct every little thing people try to do with upgrades, abilities and interpretations of every mildly vague mechanic. This even extends to all the profiles and updates after CRTs are completed.
I make one massive CRT regarding changes that would affect most of the verse, and once it's over I'm either cleaning up the messes left by people half-assing the profile updates, or practically re-writing the still-untouched profiles myself. Jesus Christ, my number of edits shot through the roof the moment I began working on profiles and with Sera mostly inactive and Dragon being rarely around, I feel like I'm the only person with any sense of quality-control. Frankly, I'm starting to think I should give up and just let the train wreck happen.
I never agreed to it in the first place, only saying that it was possible if a certain statement could be taken to its logical extreme, but people just kept hanging onto the one supporting argument that made it logical, so in the end I just had to roll with it.
First off, the 2-B reasoning relies entirely on the assumption that the Collective Unconscious holds all of the potential energy needed for every contributing human soul to create universes as they see fit if they had the mental strength to tap into it.
Then secondly, there's the issue of assuming that even if that previous assumption were treated as fact, that the created universes would then have their own sets of humans that would then contribute further into the strength of the CU. This isn't taking into account the fact that unless those universes' humans retroactively always existed preceding the point of their creation by a human from a different time and space, then the CU wouldn't have access to their souls, because they don't even exist yet.
Thirdly, EVEN IF the previous two assumptions are accepted somehow, we have NO reason to assume that any character has absolute access to all of the aforementioned power. Not even the Administrators. After all, if Yaldabaoth went through so much trouble just to fuse Reality and the Metaverse, despite already being an Administrator, which according to the arguments above, should be strong enough to do it with ridiculous ease.
Lastly, the word "Countless" gets thrown around so much when I've already debunked the legitimacy of the one statement containing it.
At this point, I'm tired of this CRT. Things got out of hand so quickly and I realized too late. I have too much going on IRL to bother with continuing to correct every little thing people try to do with upgrades, abilities and interpretations of every mildly vague mechanic. This even extends to all the profiles and updates after CRTs are completed.
I make one massive CRT regarding changes that would affect most of the verse, and once it's over I'm either cleaning up the messes left by people half-assing the profile updates, or practically re-writing the still-untouched profiles myself. Jesus Christ, my number of edits shot through the roof the moment I began working on profiles and with Sera mostly inactive and Dragon being rarely around, I feel like I'm the only person with any sense of quality-control. Frankly, I'm starting to think I should give up and just let the train wreck happen.
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No one is blaming you, no need to get defensive. I'm merely stating that "wait for the sera blog" has been something happening for quite some time now and shouldn't be an excuse to thwart discussion. I'm not blaming that on you.
The "reboot" was a meta one ala changing of staff. The continuity is still the same and connected by igor/velvet room, the sea of souls, and Atlus confirming Philemon being present in P3/P4.
The "reboot" was a meta one ala changing of staff. The continuity is still the same and connected by igor/velvet room, the sea of souls, and Atlus confirming Philemon being present in P3/P4.
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I mean cross game scaling is actually accurate for most persona profiles, just not 3-5 to 1-2. But hey, if you really wanna try and downgrade Makoto back to MSS or whatever, YOU make a CRT about it.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Wasn't that just like...a couple weeks ago?
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Persona 3 turned SMT from extreme dungeons to high school visual novels.
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I do apologize for not helping much in the Persona revisions in terms of edits. But considering that I face the same issue with Digimon, I really did not have the time to be dealing with both Persona and Digimon at the same time. Especially seeing as Digimon is a much larger verse. Regardless the blame is not on Solacis at all as I know the stress of having to edit a shitton of files for the most part by your lonesome.
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I also want to apologize for my lack of participation in recent verse revisions.
That said I feel like we've lost the actual topic of the thread at this point. We get it, people jumped the gun. Hard. But this thread was never about (or at least shouldn't have been about) cross scaling to begin with.
I think the main topic that needs to be answered is does P1 and P2 qualify for 2-B and if so, which character(s) are affected?
That said I feel like we've lost the actual topic of the thread at this point. We get it, people jumped the gun. Hard. But this thread was never about (or at least shouldn't have been about) cross scaling to begin with.
I think the main topic that needs to be answered is does P1 and P2 qualify for 2-B and if so, which character(s) are affected?
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When he says "Our persona profiles are a joke" and mentions cross game scaling, it's pretty easy to see why he'd be referring to all of them.Sera EX said:
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I haven't played Persona 1 or 2, much to my displeasure, but Solacis makes good arguments against 2-B, so i'm inclined to agree.
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I also agree with Solacis.
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- Thread starter
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CU would be 2-B because every bubble / mind / soul there is capable of creating universes, but what you are thinking is that any aleartoria person in the world can create their reality, which is not the case, CU is where they are the very essence of the person and few are able to manifest their power.
And in P1 we have an example of tier 2 talents, as Hypnos has his own domain and can create dream-like realities in them and have galaxies and indirect mentions of being a universe. Thanatos capable of killing the persona itself and trapping in the tartarus, which is only possible if he interacts with the CU and directly reaps the bubbles, we also have kandori having power over all dimensions and being able to alter his will and Pandora can destroy it them
And in P1 we have an example of tier 2 talents, as Hypnos has his own domain and can create dream-like realities in them and have galaxies and indirect mentions of being a universe. Thanatos capable of killing the persona itself and trapping in the tartarus, which is only possible if he interacts with the CU and directly reaps the bubbles, we also have kandori having power over all dimensions and being able to alter his will and Pandora can destroy it them
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I'm not to blame if anybody is considering crossover to scale characters (Q, Arena), it would be like using dissidia final fantasy to scale tier of charactersMatthew Schroeder said:
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Don't use Autistic as an insult.
Also Persona Arena is accepted on here for scaling and is considered canon
Also Persona Arena is accepted on here for scaling and is considered canon
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It's canon but nobody should scale characters based on it, we don't scale sephiroth to lightning level because they fight each other in Dissidia who is also cannon.
If they want to use it the right thing would be just to get the information they add in the franchise
If they want to use it the right thing would be just to get the information they add in the franchise
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Again, can we save the validity of cross scaling for another thread? (Also like Zephyros said don't use "autistic" as an insult. I'd even edit that out of your comment if I were you.)
This thread is about upgrading and/or deciding the tier of the old-school persona games so let's focus on that. (I actually have arguments I want to give but I don't have the time for a long post right now so hopefully I can do so later.)
This thread is about upgrading and/or deciding the tier of the old-school persona games so let's focus on that. (I actually have arguments I want to give but I don't have the time for a long post right now so hopefully I can do so later.)
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Don't we consider Dissidia characters to be different from the canon versions? The exception to this being Gilgamesh who canonically has a weapon made out of the nails of Dissidia Chaos
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Solacis never played Persona 1 and 2 either and has admitted multiple times in various threads that he lacks knowledge in both Persona 1 and 2. I honestly don't think his words amounts to anything. He even tried to put Philemon and Nyarlathotep as equal to the likes of Yaldabaoth, Izanami, Erebus, etc based solely on being "Administrators" which is a flawed argument based on association alone ignoring the power difference, their roles, and the fact that both Philemon and Nyarlathotep resides in Kadath Mandala, a higher dimension that even people who can access and influence the Collective Unconscious couldn't access.CrimsonStarFallen said:
Heck, the whole Administrator association BS is one of the reason people jumped guns and tried to put Persona 3 to 5 characters as 2-B while ironically the Persona 1 page remained untouched.
Also on topic the feat of Kandori attempting to destroy all dimensions was never addressed. While I'm not arguing that P1 and P2 cast should be 2-B (it's debatable), they should be at least be solid 2-C and not low 2-C.
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Honestly, i never understood where the whole Administrator stuff comes from, but that's not the topic of this thread.
On topic, this would result in "At least 2-C" P1 and 2 right?
On topic, this would result in "At least 2-C" P1 and 2 right?
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something something "metaverse and universe are reflections", so no.
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