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Persona 1 and 2 tier revision

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Well Sera said that P1-P2 being "2-C, possibly 2-B" is fine, and I heavily trust her in terms of Persona stats. She also said that P3-P5 shouldn't scale, along with being annoyed about how they were upgraded first (Even though it was supposed to be P1-P2 that were upgraded first..), so I think the stats and revisions that must be done are pretty clear now.

Though we'll need permission first to edit the P1/P2 pages; we don't want the admins getting angry again. And oh by the way, we need to revise not just their tiers, but we should also apply these haxes to their pages as well. Since they're all Persona users, after all.
 
So anyone here have any opinion what the size of Kadath Mandala could possibly be or if we can categorize it as a higher dimension?

Igor: It exists one level shallower than the abyss where my master Philemon and the Crawling Chaos reside, in the realm where the archetypes of Personas and demons slumber.

Igor: Your Persona, which acts as your other self, also hails from Kadath, Master Suou. If I said it was the place where dwell the images of the legends and gods within everyone―would that be easier to understand?

Igor: Once upon a time, the Person Users of yore who mastered the power of dreaming and could personally visit the world of the Collective Unconsciousness called it the Dreamlands. Cat Lieutenant General Zula: This place called Kadath Mandala is constructed in the shape of a hexagram, containing an older pentagram emblem.

Cat Lieutenant General Zula: The hexagram represents the vast macrocosm of space and the pentagram is a symbol of the microcosm known as humanity.

Source:

https://www.narutoforums.org/thread...ification-on-the-persona-2-characters.900635/

https://p2px-scenario.tumblr.com/post/123883917483/part-3-gone-without-a-trace-section-a
 
Also another important hax feat is when Tatsuya and his party defeated a godlike being that represent all boundaries. Think of someone like Yukari Yakumo on steroids.

>We have found the guardian of the Ultimate Gate, the avatar of the one who makes everything and is everything, 'Umr at-Tawil. He gave his forgiveness for passing through Kadath, but it seems he has no intention of simply letting you go.

>Ulala: Waah..! This is super bad!

>Of course it is. This guy is the very boundary of the world. He will challenge you if you do something behind his back. The ones who pass the Ultimate Gate in order to reach the world of the subconscious are usually sent by him to another, unknown dimension, unable to return a second time. I say, some of you could die here. Maybe all of you. Well then, good luck.

Zula disappears.

After Umr at-Tawil melts away, a bright light surfaces. Immediately after, Zula jumps back into the picture.

>GOOD! I commend you on your victory against 'Umr at-Tawil!

>Tatsuya: Is this a fragment of Shiori's heart...?

>Exactly. This is Minashiro Shiori's -Trapezohedron of Knowledge-. It's all right, you can take a look.

As they look at the fragment, all kinds of letters and words, formulae and information, are in constant change, like the pieces inside a kaleidoscope — gathering, then scattering, flowing and swirling.

>Now, we don't have time to waste. Let's finish our job before 'Umr at-Tawil comes back stronger than before.

>Ulala: Wha-! That thing's not dead?

>That is what a boundary is. Without it, there would be no areas of consciousness and collective unconscious for you humans and no individual entities either. All right then, it's high time we travelled Kadath to look for the next Trapezohedron. MOVE! MOVE! MOVE!
 
Ranzuki said:
Igor: It exists one level shallower than the abyss where my master Philemon and the Crawling Chaos reside, in the realm where the archetypes of Personas and demons slumber.

Igor: Your Persona, which acts as your other self, also hails from Kadath, Master Suou. If I said it was the place where dwell the images of the legends and gods within everyone―would that be easier to understand?

Igor: Once upon a time, the Person Users of yore who mastered the power of dreaming and could personally visit the world of the Collective Unconsciousness called it the Dreamlands.
Click to expand...
That said then apparently Thanatos has to access Kadath to kill a persona and imprison him on Tartarus, and this Dreamland looks very similar to Hypnos's Dream World.
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
Well Sera said that P1-P2 being "2-C, possibly 2-B" is fine, and I heavily trust her in terms of Persona stats. She also said that P3-P5 shouldn't scale, along with being annoyed about how they were upgraded first (Even though it was supposed to be P1-P2 that were upgraded first..), so I think the stats and revisions that must be done are pretty clear now.
Click to expand...
Well, the P2 EP scenario also pretty much destroys any attemps of trying to scale P3 to P5 characters from P1 and P2 characters.

The most popular arguments are categorizing Philemon and Nyarlathotep as Administrators and equalizing them to other Administrators despite the fact that's blatant false equivalence fallacy. Not to mention Tatsuya and co has already defeated conceptual beings and one of them even represents boundaries and these conceptual beings are far below Philemon and Nyarlathotep despite being abstract entities as well.

Another popular argument is Yaldabaoth taking over the Velvet Room and assuming Philemon got taken over as well and Chronos trapping a butterfly which is assumed to be Philemon. These two arguments can be easily refuted since Philemon does not reside in the Velvet Room but in Kadath Mandala, a higher dimension that cannot be accessed normally even by people who already has access and influence to the Collective Unconscious. Also even "if" he got taken over or got trapped as a butterfly (assuming it's not just a fragment of himself or an avatar), Igor has already mentioned in the EP scenario that Philemon's powers has weakened to the point that his master can no longer help Tatsuya and friends to access Kadath Mandala.
 
Dunno if that's neccessarily a higher dimension. We have very strict standards here when it comes to dimensional tiering after all. But what we do know is that it's a realm where normal Persona cannot access unless they have powerful minds/wills. And remember, the stronger you will/mind is, the more powerful you are as a Persona user.

That's why Maki's incredibly powerful; Her sheer will combined with the Deva Machine made a whole new universe. And Tatsuya's will along with the rest of IS team were strong enough to completely alter the universe; and they can make rumors come true.

Might be a form of Subjective Reality, actually. Kinda like Joker.
 
Pretty much everyone in Persona 1 and 2. The scaling chain starts from P1 all the way to Eternal Punishment.

And while Sera did say she's good with "At least 2-C, possibly 2-B", we still haven't gotten official word on whether we can apply this to the profiles, and whether it's fully accepted. So technically, its not accepted at the moment, but it has support from one staff member who also happens to be an expert on Persona.
 
Yes, via the statement from both Nanjo and Maki, where he theorized about the many world theory, and when Maki said that the souls were countless in number.

There's also a lot more if you look into the posts here by Zer00 and the rest.
 
Uh... bump. I think a new thread should be created for the Persona 1 and 2 tiers summarizing the main points for 2-C / 2-B.
 
Bump

Nyarlalothep can be summoned by one of P1's playable characters, that's a detail I forgot to mention, you can raise him in the velvet room after defeating Kandori and getting his totem (Kandori who originally owned Nyar)
 
I mean... Sera already supported "2-C, possibly 2-B" Persona 1-2 and she's probably the most knowledgeable staff on Persona 1 and 2, so...
 
I trust Sera's sense of judgement.
 
^^^ Yes, exactly this. Please do what Ant says. I know zilch about the abilities that are about to be added to the profiles so I can't help with formatting like I have for every other Persona page.
 
Alright, we got a go signal from both Ant and Sera so I suppose it's fine to apply now.

I'll try and help out since I know P1 and P2 but I'll need some help. Where my fellow Paleo-Persona gang at?
 
Is somebody willing to apply the accepted changes?
 
We have a Discord for people willing to apply the changes, so we can keep to a certain standard in applying them.
 
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