Paper Shredding (Mario Profile Revision)

[AStrangeverse]

i think for the purpose of getting the split done quicker pre-paper jam should be worried about later

also pure hearts should be before the post-paper jam key, chronologically that's the order, and it works better in terms of listing P&A too

you tellin me, that 3-C | 2-B | At least 3-C..

..is visually nice to look at?

I mean, aight, I ain't got much of an issue with it

 

[AStrangeverse]

Yeah. I expect the best thing to be usable Pre-Paper Jam would be getting a calc/general range to give to Shadow Queen's shaking of the earth

But yeah, as Armor said, save this for AFTER the split and 2B thread. It'll likely be much easier to pass around them.

don't even think we need to get that calced, as there's already a blog for Earth Shaking Feats

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

don't even think we need to get that calced, as there's already a blog for Earth Shaking Feats

Hence why I said general range ( :<

 

[AStrangeverse]

Hence why I said general range ( :<

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I don't think "pre-Paper Jam" should be added later. It looks like an unofficial and fan-made chronology of power.

• There is no logical explanation for Paper Mario and all the important paper characters to suddenly get a huge burst in power just by traveling to a different world. This would've been required to fight alongside the normal Mario and Luigi in a meaningful way, even before leveling up a lot.
• Paper Mario wasn't portrayed as far stronger than he's normally capable of becoming when he joined the normal world. He was able to level up in the same way the normal Mario and Luigi could, ever since the beginning.
  • Paper Mario is supposed to be an alternate version of normal Mario anyway. In a parallel world that is very similar to the primary one, it'd be odd for the capabilities of the characters to be vastly different from the ones from the primary world, until they collide.
• Important enemies such as Paper Bowser don't level up, yet Paper Mario is comparable to them all the time. Paper Mario was capable of fighting Bowser both at the beginning and at the end of the first Paper Mario game, with the tricky part during both encounters being the Star Rod rather than Bowser's own power. Mario can fight against enemies who are comparable to him during games after Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, without one-shotting them. It doesn't make sense for everything in the Paper Mario world to suddenly become immensely stronger to compensate for the main character increasing in power.
  • At the beginning of Mario & Luigi games, the brothers are often described as rusty in combat as a result of not being on an adventure for a while since the previous game. This is the justification for the characters resetting their capabilities at the beginning of an adventure, including being at the minimum level again. The same should apply to Paper Mario after Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. Since Paper Mario was always able to fight alongside the normal Mario and Luigi even at the minimum level, there's pretty much no difference in Paper Mario's power before and after the game. There was only a difference during the game, working off of power that was already in the league of the normal world characters.

Conclusion: The characters in the Paper Mario games should be regarded as comparable to characters from normal Super Mario games, without there being a different tier for before this was proven.

 

[omegabronic]

I don't think "pre-Paper Jam" should be added later. It looks like an unofficial and fan-made chronology of power.

• There is no logical explanation for Paper Mario and all the important paper characters to suddenly get a huge burst in power just by traveling to a different world. This would've been required to fight alongside the normal Mario and Luigi in a meaningful way, even before leveling up a lot.
• Paper Mario wasn't portrayed as far stronger than he's normally capable of becoming when he joined the normal world. He was able to level up in the same way the normal Mario and Luigi could, ever since the beginning.
  • Paper Mario is supposed to be an alternate version of normal Mario anyway. In a parallel world that is very similar to the primary one, it'd be odd for the capabilities of the characters to be vastly different from the ones from the primary world, until they collide.
• Important enemies such as Paper Bowser don't level up, yet Paper Mario is comparable to them all the time. Paper Mario was capable of fighting Bowser both at the beginning and at the end of the first Paper Mario game, with the tricky part during both encounters being the Star Rod rather than Bowser's own power. Mario can fight against enemies who are comparable to him during games after Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, without one-shotting them. It doesn't make sense for everything in the Paper Marioworld to suddenly become immensely stronger to compensate for the main character increasing in power.
  • At the beginning of Mario & Luigi games, the brothers are often described as rusty in combat as a result of not being on an adventure for a while since the previous game. This is the justification for the characters resetting their capabilities at the beginning of an adventure, including being at the minimum level again. The same should apply to Paper Mario after Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. Since Paper Mario was always able to fight alongside the normal Mario and Luigi even at the minimum level, there's pretty much no difference in Paper Mario's power before and after the game. There was only a difference during the game, working off of power that was already in the league of the normal world characters.

Conclusion: The characters in the Paper Mario games should be regarded as comparable to characters from normal Super Mario games, without there being a different tier for before this was proven.

tbh this could be just a trope of "getting stronger as the time goes long" specially if he has lower feats before paper jam, if he only has the scaling to mario after paper jam, then he should scale to his other feats before paper jam if they are lower

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

tbh this could be just a trope of "getting stronger as the time goes long" specially if he has lower feats before paper jam, if he only has the scaling to mario after paper jam, then he should scale to his other feats before paper jam if they are lower

This idea of the characters getting stronger as time goes on would have to apply to characters like Petey Piranha, basically any character even moderately portrayed as strong compared to Mario, no matter what context they have, all just to support an idea that isn't even confirmed. Keep in mind that this is a fictional work where the characters aren't consistently powerful. Normal Mario rarely does anything close to galaxy level in the majority of his games.

 

[omegabronic]

This idea of the characters getting stronger as time goes on would have to apply to characters like Petey Piranha, basically any character even moderately portrayed as strong compared to Mario, no matter what context they have, all just to support an idea that isn't even confirmed. Keep in mind that this is a fictional work where the characters aren't consistently powerful. Normal Mario rarely does anything close to galaxy level in the majority of his games.

does paper mario have any feats or scaling close to galaxy level in his series prior to paper jam like main mario does?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

does paper mario have any feats or scaling close to galaxy level in his series prior to paper jam like main mario does?

He doesn't as far as I remember. This shouldn't matter, because Mario's feats in the series aren't in an order of weakest to strongest, and he has been portrayed in many ways throughout his games. People powerscale characters to normal Mario long before he had any galaxy level information. Chronology doesn't matter when the characters don't have evidence of getting stronger over time. Does the following look reliable to you?

"Accelerated Development (Petey Piranha was comparable to Mario during Super Mario Sunshine, but was later able to fight Mario after he had proven to be Galaxy level, such as during Mario Party Superstars)" This is the kind of stuff that would need to be on the profiles for the idea to work and be consistent across all the characters, with no double standards.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

does paper mario have any feats or scaling close to galaxy level in his series prior to paper jam like main mario does?

Not really. Paper Mario doesn’t really get cosmic until Super, and all of Super’s cosmic stuff only really applies Pure Hearts.

you can probably only really find some assorted Tier 6-Tier4 stuff for PM iirc

 

[omegabronic]

He doesn't as far as I remember. This shouldn't matter, because Mario's feats in the series aren't in an order of weakest to strongest, and he has been portrayed in many ways throughout his games.

mainline maybe, what about paper tho?

People powerscale characters to normal Mario long before he had any galaxy level information. Chronology doesn't matter when the characters don't have evidence of getting stronger over time. Does the following look reliable to you?

if he has no galaxy level feats until paper jam, why would we scale him to that?
mainline has the power stars acaling from 64 onwards to his advantage, paper doesn't seem to have as far i am aware

"Accelerated Development (Petey Piranha was comparable to Mario during Super Mario Sunshine, but was later able to fight Mario after he had proven to be Galaxy level, such as during Mario Party Superstars)" This is the kind of stuff that would need to be on the profiles for the idea to work and be consistent across all the characters, with no double standards.

No, he doesn't even need AD at all, just a second key listing his feats of scaling to mainline mario, characters growing in strenght doesn't make them have AD automatically, just look at most anime protag profile

If he doesn't have feats on that level and is threated by things lower than that level, then he isn't that level yet, it is pretty simple really

Not really. Paper Mario doesn’t really get cosmic until Super, and all of Super’s cosmic stuff only really applies Pure Hearts.

you can probably only really find some assorted Tier 6-Tier4 stuff for PM iirc

Well then, what are some of his feats from before the crossover with mainline? We should list them here and have them calced for the separation

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

mainline maybe, what about paper tho?


if he has no galaxy level feats until paper jam, why would we scale him to that?
mainline has the power stars acaling from 64 onwards to his advantage, paper doesn't seem to have as far i am aware


No, he doesn't even need AD at all, just a second key listing his feats of scaling to mainline mario, characters growing in strenght doesn't make them have AD automatically, just look at most anime protag profile

If he doesn't have feats on that level and is threated by things lower than that level, then he isn't that level yet, it is pretty simple really


Well then, what are some of his feats from before the crossover with mainline? We should list them here and have them calced for the separation

Despite there being absolutely no official context of Paper Mario and the characters who are comparable to him suddenly drastically increasing in capabilities between Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, you want to regard those characters as ones who suddenly drastically increased in power, just because, in this fictional work that most definitely doesn't officially give a bother about the consistency of feats, the characters lacked feats to prove that they're that strong until they got evidence of being able to be powerscaled to characters from normal Super Mario games. The idea prioritizes stylishly presenting more information on the VS Battles Wiki over representing the characters properly. Just because a character lacked proof of a particular amount of power for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean they weren't always that strong when they gained evidence of that. The case is just that Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam was the first case where we could see that the Paper Mario characters are physically much like the normal Super Mario characters.

 

[omegabronic]

Despite there being absolutely no official context of Paper Mario and the characters who are comparable to him suddenly drastically increasing in capabilities between Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam

yeah, that happens in fiction a lot of time, ever saw one piece? Basically no training but they get stronger through their experiences and battles, also do we know how much time has passed between sticker star and paper jam?

, you want to regard those characters as ones who suddenly drastically increased in power, just because, in this fictional work that most definitely doesn't officially give a bother about the consistency of feats

Mainline has consistent scaling to galaxy level stuff as far back as 64, and then far more after, does paper mario have the same?

, the characters lacked feats to prove that they're that strong until they got evidence of being able to be powerscaled to characters from normal Super Mario games.

therefore we only scale them after they have feats of scaling to such, i don't see the problem here

The idea prioritizes stylishly presenting more information on the VS Battles Wiki over representing the characters properly.

no, the idea prioritizes presenting the characters in an acurate way, if they had no scaling fests until paper jam, then they won't scale until paper jam, that is how we scale stuff arround here

Just because a character lacked proof of a particular amount of power for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean they weren't always that strong when they gained evidence of that.

Unless you have a statement or proof that they didn't grew at all and never grow being stagered

The case is just that Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam was the first case where we could see that the Paper Mario characters are physically much like the normal Super Mario characters.

And do we have proof or reason to assume that they were this strong beforewards?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

yeah, that happens in fiction a lot of time, ever saw one piece? Basically no training but they get stronger through their experiences and battles, also do we know how much time has passed between sticker star and paper jam?

If it's implied during One Piece then that's fine, but it's not implied during Paper Mario. Also, training isn't the only way for characters to get stronger.

Mainline has consistent scaling to galaxy level stuff as far back as 64, and then far more after, does paper mario have the same?

I remember that being multi-solar system level. I already answered your question about Paper Mario, and someone else did too.

therefore we only scale them after they have feats of scaling to such, i don't see the problem here

You cut my sentence into three separate pieces, with this one being the third... The other two were fine answered without the other parts, but this third part is associated with the other parts.

no, the idea prioritizes presenting the characters in an acurate way, if they had no scaling fests until paper jam, then they won't scale until paper jam, that is how we scale stuff arround here

Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam is what gave us evidence that they were always like the normal Super Mario characters.

Unless you have a statement or proof that they didn't grew at all and never grow being stagered

That's the burden of proof fallacy.

And do we have proof or reason to assume that they were this strong beforewards?

As I wrote, nothing suggests that the characters grew in power a lot, and this fictional work doesn't care about consistency of feats. In the interpretation that normal Mario is Galaxy level, he's still jumping around in normal terrain not portrayed as a cosmic god, similarly to Paper Mario. When Paper Mario has been portrayed as being as strong as he was since the first game, new feats midway through his series means how strong he was before he demonstrated the feats is recontextualized.

 

[omegabronic]

If it's implied during One Piece then that's fine, but it's not implied during Paper Mario.

Having feats far beyond what they did before does imply strenght growth

Also, training isn't the only way for characters to get stronger.

Exactly my point in regards to paper mario

I remember that being multi-solar system level.

They are galaxy as of now

You cut my sentence into three separate pieces, with this one being the third... The other two were fine answered without the other parts, but this third part is associated with the other parts.

how exactly?

Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam is what gave us evidence that they were always like the normal Super Mario characters.

It gaves us evidence that they were this strong paper jam onwards, what is the proof that they scale that high before if they don't have feats even close to that?

That's the burden of proof fallacy.

You are with the possitive "they were always this strong" so you kind of need to prove the positive

As I wrote, nothing suggests that the characters grew in power a lot, and this fictional work doesn't care about consistency of feats.

the fictional work may not but we do, mainline is consistent in galaxy level, if paper isn't before paper jam, then we scale them to their feats, we are repeating ourselves at this point

In the interpretation that normal Mario is Galaxy level, he's still jumping around in normal terrain not portrayed as a cosmic god, similarly to Paper Mario.

that is not at all my point, mainline mario constantly defeats people empowered by galaxy level artifacts, so he scale, paper mario does not have that advantage on his side, gameplay mechanics or portray were never my argument

When Paper Mario has been portrayed as being as strong as he was since the first game

Show proof of this and i will concede

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Having feats far beyond what they did before does imply strenght growth


Exactly my point in regards to paper mario

It doesn't necessarily imply that. It can also just be that the character was never in a situation to prove being that strong until the feat occurred. This seems to be the case for Paper Mario characters, due to his portrayal, which I elaborated on in subsequent points of this message.

They are galaxy as of now

That's their rank right now, but the information you wrote is something multi-solar system level. Either way, my point still stands. A lot of the time, the characters don't demonstrate feats in the league you have in mind. A lot of the time, it's just basic platforming or sports. It shows that this series has a wide variety of content, not caring about the consistency of power as much as you think it does. This paragraph is related to another one below, which will contain "" to signify this.

how exactly?

It was a continuation of words you excluded from the quote. It wasn't its own point.

It gaves us evidence that they were this strong paper jam onwards, what is the proof that they scale that high before if they don't have feats even close to that?

We're trying to reach an agreement about this with the other points anyway so I think we should skip this point and see.

You are with the possitive "they were always this strong" so you kind of need to prove the positive

This isn't about positive or negative; it's about who's avoiding the need to provide evidence. As a comparison example, "Mario is tier 1 because you can't prove he's not" is the burden of proof fallacy, even if the person claiming that provides their more in depth ideas about why they think Mario is tier 1. Similarly, even though you're telling me why you think Paper Mario characters grew in tier during Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, your main point is still the idea that they must be so based on feats, which, in a fictional work like this, aren't that important to the chronological story, and that the only way to disprove your idea is the have evidence clearly demonstrating that the characters didn't increase in power, even though that should be the default interpretation when the evidence in favor of the alternative interpretation doesn't have a reliable justification.

the fictional work may not but we do, mainline is consistent in galaxy level, if paper isn't before paper jam, then we scale them to their feats, we are repeating ourselves at this point

The VS Battles Wiki gets its information based on the fictional work, including what the work cares about. We analyze context behind information, including feats, to get the most reliable conclusions, rather than giving ranks only based on what we care to look at in a fictional work.

that is not at all my point, mainline mario constantly defeats people empowered by galaxy level artifacts, so he scale, paper mario does not have that advantage on his side, gameplay mechanics or portray were never my argument

This part wasn't to claim that you were claiming it, just that this is what Mario is like. Even though he has defeated many characters with galaxy level amplifications, he's still a character whose power isn't a very important aspect of his personality and so on. My point is that, in the case that Paper Mario was always as strong as normal Mario, don't expect it to be obvious at all. This paragraph is related to the one with "" from above.

Show proof of this and i will concede

My answer would be something like my answer about the burden of proof fallacy.

 

[Hiryu-Z]

Agree with the OP

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I remember that being multi-solar system level. I already answered your question about Paper Mario, and someone else did too.
.

Just want to note: 4A power stars is bunk, it was based on translational **** ups and the context doesn’t exist in the original Japanese text.

The best you can get power stars to is 4C to 4B off of some stellar movement feats in the Mario Party games iirc.

 

[Armorchompy]

you tellin me, that 3-C | 2-B | At least 3-C..

..is visually nice to look at?

I mean, aight, I ain't got much of an issue with it

nice, i dunno. easier to understand to someone who doesn't know what a paper is, yea

peepotalk

It's an RPG series, there is literally a built-in mechanic in every game that explains them growing in strength. Well, every game before SS.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Just want to note: 4A power stars is bunk, it was based on translational **** ups and the context doesn’t exist in the original Japanese text.

The best you can get power stars to is 4C to 4B off of some stellar movement feats in the Mario Party games iirc.

Now that you mention it, I recall this a little. Thanks! It further supports what I was writing, about how Mario's capabilities are vast across his games.

It's an RPG series, there is literally a built-in mechanic in every game that explains them growing in strength. Well, every game before SS.

I already factored that in.

 

[AStrangeverse]

keeping yall updated, Paper Mario's profile is finished for the most part

still need to adjust mainline Mario's

 

[AStrangeverse]

both profiles should be completely done now, I'll be preparing the Overhaul CRT tomorrow, and have it posted whenever this thread concludes

 

[Armorchompy]

mario

 

[AStrangeverse]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/mario-bros-profile-overhaul-s-4.153971/

scratch that, yall slow

 

[Robot972]

Personally I still think Mario should get Paper Mario 64 and maybe Thousand Year Door stuff, considering Superstar Saga

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Personally I still think Mario should get Paper Mario 64 and maybe Thousand Year Door stuff, considering Superstar Saga

When does superstar saga support that

 

[JJSliderman]

The Paper Mario block in the museum.

 

[Armorchompy]

that's just a reference, don't give it that much weight

 

[Robot972]

that's just a reference, don't give it that much weight

I will never ******* understand that argument.

The Blocks of Nostalgia room is explicitly stated to be featuring blocks from "past adventures". It outright confirms that Paper Mario WAS a previous adventure for 3D Mario.

Yeah, it's a referential easter egg... But literally why the hell does that matter? What about "Hey, this thing LITERALLY happened" makes this unusable? And if THIS is unusable, why are other references to other games usable?

 

[Armorchompy]

I will never ******* understand that argument.

The Blocks of Nostalgia room is explicitly stated to be featuring blocks from "past adventures". It outright confirms that Paper Mario WAS a previous adventure for 3D Mario.

Yeah, it's a referential easter egg... But literally why the hell does that matter? What about "Hey, this thing LITERALLY happened" makes this unusable? And if THIS is unusable, why are other references to other games usable?

Yeah it's a referential easter egg. As in, reliable or not, it's literally one instance. That, and a couple of other inconsistencies, do not overturn a much more reliable set of evidence for the other side of the argument.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well I guess being fair.

The fact they call these blocks by the names of the games they come from, does hint at it being more of a meta thing as opposed to in-universe references

 

[Robot972]

Well I guess being fair.

The fact they call these blocks by the names of the games they come from, does hint at it being more of a meta thing as opposed to in-universe references

Okay, and? Characters are repeatedly shown to be aware of the fourth wall and the fact they're inside games. Hell, Paper Mario 64, Thousand Year Door, Superstar Saga, AND Partners in Time have the games themselves existing in-verse, on top of countless other games in the franchise making reference to themselves being games.

And even if you want to ignore that, we literally know a book was written based off Paper Mario 64 called "Paper Mario" (or "Mario's Story" in Japanese) at the end of Paper Mario 64, which we also see in Luigi's Mansion. So even by the argument of "they're referencing the game title" we STILL know they'd have that title in-verse without looking at meta-knowledge

 

[Armorchompy]

Look, with due respect, the decision was taken already, this thread is for carrying it out.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't think that's a very good argument because you could easily spin that around that due to being a self-referential meta 4th wall break, something they allegedly do constantly in a meta fashion, it actually holds next to no weight as while the characters might be aware of past adventures, they might not exist in a linear fashion and thus they'd need keys for every single individual adventure. Kinda like how Deadpool is aware of shit he's done in other movies, shows and manga.

 

[Robot972]

Look, with due respect, the decision was taken already, this thread is for carrying it out.

Yeah, and I'm allowed to disagree with the decision

Wasn't expecting to upturn an entire wikis worth of staff's opinions or anything. Just putting in my two-cents

 

[Robot972]

Not to mention I STILL wasn't arguing for ALL paper mario games to stay on the profile. Just the one game that is literally stated to be a previous adventure of 3D Mario's, a fact which is supported by several other games

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, and I'm allowed to disagree with the decision

Wasn't expecting to upturn an entire wikis worth of staff's opinions or anything. Just putting in my two-cents

fair enough

 

[JJSliderman]

I could see a compromise where the first game stays and all the other ones fall under the category of continuing off the storybook version.

 

[Armorchompy]

The other games are clearly a sequel to it (and the storybook thing is just headcanon, which the intro of PM1 basically contradicts on its own), even if it wasn't originally intended to be it just got retconned into being paper.

 

[JJSliderman]

Is it headcanon to say that they made a book based off one of Mario’s adventures, and then the book spawned its own universe to have sequels afterwards?