Paper Shredding (Mario Profile Revision)

[Mephistus]

You mean fan service anyway in paper Mario there is a mention that Herringway is going to create a book called Paper Mario/Mario Story the intro cutscene involves opening a book, a thousand year door has an audience and stage for fights and starts with another book, super paper Mario starts by showing the dark prognosticus.

Sticker star has a completely different emblem on the cover for the intro book though, unlikely they'd be the same book they are held in as the one seen in paper jam.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think with all respect, it's pretty insane that you guys look at the games from the Paper Mario series that all star Paper Mario and have a distinguished Paper Aesthetic, and your brain thinks "oh clearly these are two different series, in the first of them paper is just a stylistic choice, in the second an actual canon thing, and despite looking the exact same and having the series name they are completely unrelated". Occam's Razor, I think comes into play here.

It's a logo change across like 20 years, shit gets redesigned all the day in Mario, it's not an indication of canonicity lmao, don't look at it too hard.

Also, Sticker Star has a letter from Goombella in it.

 

[Armorchompy]

By the way, to quote the Mario Wiki page for Paper Jam:

"Both the Paper Airplane and Paper abilities return from (TTYD). The first time Paper Mario meets Mario, he performs a Spring Jump. Paper Mario's blocking and KO'd animations are the same as from this game."

"When Paper Mario shows up for the first time, he jumps in the air and gets a yellow and white background, along with everything around him stopping for a second, similar to how characters are introduced in (Sticker Star). Whenever a paper enemy is defeated, it turns gray, similar to how the enemies do if Paper Mario keeps attacking them after their HP has reached 0 in this game. Cardboard coins return from the Paper Mario universe as they are dropped from defeated paper enemies."

Paper Mario and his world share a bunch of things with the actual PM games.

Also, I dug a bit, and found just a straight-up statement that PJ is a crossover with the Paper Mario games. So, there you go.

 

[Lou_change]

What I was thinking was the original paper Mario games were meant to be retellings of actual events.

“Both the Paper Airplane and Paper abilities return from (TTYD).” I might of missed something but when did boomerang or drill show up or how paper bowser jr could do it as well.

Several of the fourth wall breaks in the games outright mention main series games by name when talking about aspects of their world so they aren’t referring to Paper Mario equivalents. Super Paper Mario has pretty much everyone stuck in 2D the main exception being people with power to flip when in other games in the series have everyone able to move in 3D

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The issue is the fact that before PJ, both series, be it Paper Mario or Super Mario, reference each other. Bowser's Castle from the original PM being on Rainbow Road and I'm sure somebody mentioned the Luigi thing earlier so I won't do it again.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The issue is the fact that before PJ, both series, be it Paper Mario or Super Mario, reference each other. Bowser's Castle from the original PM being on Rainbow Road and I'm sure somebody mentioned the Luigi thing earlier so I won't do it again.

Is there anything suggesting that these references are specifically about the main series? Because things like "Rainbow Road exists" and "Mario and co like to go golfing or kart racing" seem a bit too non-specific. It's not like referencing non-canon material is unusual for the series.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also like I said, Mario's a massive franchise, there ARE going to be inconsistencies, you can't expect everything to fully work out, but not only does the evidence of "Paper Mario is a different continuity" far outweigh the opposite, it's not really an even playing field because the default assumption should absolutely be "yes the series where characters act as if they're made of paper and are depicted as being made of paper that literally crosses over with the non-paper series is not the same series as the non-paper series", Color Splash referencing the funni Luigi maymay doesn't overturn that, very solid proof would be needed to go against that and that just doesn't exist.

 

[Lou_change]

Paper Mario in that game shows abilities he never had before or since and not just the copy block or trio hammer. The boomerang and drill form along with the floaty jump. To my knowledge there have been no reference to paper jam since and if I am not mistaken the only references to paper Mario beside paper copies of the characters is tower power pokey who I am pretty sure should have lost his royal sticker and sombrero guy

 

[Armorchompy]

Paper Mario in that game shows abilities he never had before or since and not just the copy block or trio hammer.

yeah if you play super mario odyssey mario can do backflips and jump off walls, and he couldn't do that on super mario bros on the nes, videogames add moves sometimes

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Miyamoto said the "There is only one Mario" statement after Paper Jam too. Not to mention, Paper Jam and Sticker Star are both since considered games Nintendo wants to forget ever happened.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Miyamoto said the "There is only one Mario" statement after Paper Jam too. Not to mention, Paper Jam and Sticker Star are both since considered games Nintendo wants to forget ever happened.

Where was this stated?

 

[Armorchompy]

Miyamoto said the "There is only one Mario" statement after Paper Jam too.

Yeah and that statement is not only fairly vague but even if interpreted that specific way quite frankly isn't worth all that much compared to actual evidence in the games.

Not to mention, Paper Jam and Sticker Star are both since considered games Nintendo wants to forget ever happened.

The fans, maybe. Nintendo keeps making Sticker Star again on new consoles so clearly they don't mind it.

Also, we don't judge by that metric, Sonic 06 is... Sonic 06, but half the stuff on Sonic's profile is from that game.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, gotta agree with Armor. The games simply don't support the statement from Miyamoto in regards to PM.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, Miyamoto and other Nintendo staff have voiced how Sticker Star was a bad game, and it's literally mention on the first episode of Chuggaconroy's big rant on Sticker Star. This whole video gives elaborate context and the timestamp of 1:58 legit mentions Miyamoto and Tanabe both said the game was bad.

But on that note, Paper Jam's version of Paper Mario doesn't even have any proof of being the Paper Mario from the original. Mario Kart and Luigi's Mansion still consistently reference Paper Mario as being part of those mainline games as Cal and others mentioned even as recently as their most recent games. Mephistus still brought up the Book that PJPM came from having a different Emblem from the one from Thousand Year Door or Mario Story book in Luigi's Mansion. Dino also said it's the same thing as saying Bowser and Dry Bowser are different entities because they both appear in Mario Kart. Or that the various Baby versions of Mario characters are different. Color Splash and Origami King also have referenced mainline Mario games too, not just Paper Mario games.

Also about the whole, "Everything being made of paper is consistently literal" there are a lot of scans that contradict that.

Also, you do realize Blood originally existed in the original Japanese version of Paper Mario. Also, if everyone was made of paper, why does everyone still have digestive systems? The entire plot of Chapter 4-2 was Squirps being desperate for a bathroom break in an occupied toilet, everyone still eats, drinks, pisses, and *****. And while one can argue "Cartoon logic" that's just consistency with the Whooly World statement that Flocky is a substance that can transmute between Paper, Yarn, and true organs at will with Yarn Yoshi still just being regular Yoshi.

 

[Armorchompy]

Actually, Miyamoto and other Nintendo staff have voiced how Sticker Star was a bad game, and it's literally mention on the first episode of Chuggaconroy's big rant on Sticker Star. This whole video gives elaborate context and the timestamp of 1:58 legit mentions Miyamoto and Tanabe both said the game was bad.

And?

But on that note, Paper Jam's version of Paper Mario doesn't even have any proof of being the Paper Mario from the original.

Well there's the fact that he's called Paper Mario, looks exactly like Paper Mario, uses some of the exact same moves and animations as Paper Mario and that Paper Jam is said to be a crossover with the Paper Mario series, so I would say there's a bit of proof actually.

Dino also said it's the same thing as saying Bowser and Dry Bowser are different entities because they both appear in Mario Kart. Or that the various Baby versions of Mario characters are different.

It's actually a completely different thing given that we know how Dry Bowser is created and that the Baby versions are their past versions, which we are blatantly shown in the games. Almost as blatantly as we are shown Paper Mario being from a different universe. If Dry Bowser was part of a Dry Mario series where everyone was a skeleton and eventually crossed over with mainline Mario (now also known as Wet Mario) by coming from his own universe I would indeed say he was a different character.

Color Splash and Origami King also have referenced mainline Mario games too, not just Paper Mario games.

There's a difference between references and callbacks. Paper Mario references Mario, and calls back to Paper Mario, usually. Again, there's gonna be some slips, 100% consistency is impossible, doesn't mean we don't go for what's more consistent

Also about the whole, "Everything being made of paper is consistently literal" there are a lot of scans that contradict that.

Yeah yeah, early installment weirdness for 1 and 3, but I have to ask, why are you showing us a Crafted World scan for 2? I don't really see how that's relevant at all. It's also a nice, manipulative, out of context scan, given that the quote refers to game development, not lore. Miyamoto immediately follows that up with:

"The plain old original textured Yoshi that appeared in the Mario series. Because the game world was something similar to the real world, having the ordinary Yoshi standing there seemed a little odd. So we thought it would be better to have a Yoshi that fit into the game world and started searching for the right look. [...] But then if we made it too craft-like, for example like making Yoshi out of cardboard or something, then his usual appearance would end up being lost. The aim was to maintain his usual appearance as much as possible while making him fit into the world. While we tried things like clay and plastic figure textures, the one that left the best impression was the flocky one. If you were going to use him as a real toy, the feeling would be something like velvet". Really thought you out of all people wouldn't resort to something like that.

Also, you do realize Blood originally existed in the original Japanese version of Paper Mario. Also, if everyone was made of paper, why does everyone still have digestive systems? The entire plot of Chapter 4-2 was Squirps being desperate for a bathroom break in an occupied toilet, everyone still eats, drinks, pisses, and *****.

That just means they paper bleed, paper eat, paper drink and paper piss and shit? I don't see the point. They're clearly not akin to normal paper given that they are alive, move, speak and do all sorts of things paper usually doesn't do.

 

[Lou_change]

yeah if you play super mario odyssey mario can do backflips and jump off walls, and he couldn't do that on super mario bros on the nes, videogames add moves sometimes

He gained tricks paper Mario had to be given the power to fold himself into different shapes he never was given the power to become a boomerang or drill and using different jumping techniques is not the same as flutter jumping which is regularly shown to be a special power.

 

[Armorchompy]

He gained tricks paper Mario had to be given the power to fold himself into different shapes he never was given the power to become a boomerang or drill and using different jumping techniques is not the same as flutter jumping which is regularly shown to be a special power.

this still means absolutely nothing, characters showcase new P&A in new media all the time

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Don't compare Yoshi's spin-off games to this situation with Paper Mario. Yoshi's Woolly World is confirmed to take place in a universe without the Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[Mephistus]

Not exactly sure of half that statement, since Yoshi series is the backstory to how Mario's past started.

Speaking of the retcons, Paper Kamek only first met Mario in Sticker Star according to his own words, with the Yoshi Island games having Kamek already met baby Mario on Yoshi's back......so.

& in Partners in Time in his past of the same timeline he already knows the baby Mario bros but there's timey wimey stuff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A friend of mine shared me a lot of stuff on Discord.

Paper Jam actually contradicts itself:

First we have The most prominent example of this is the Royal Sticker Giant Pokey.



Not only does Paper Mario show no recognition of the item, but it also can’t exist from a timeline standpoint. The Royal Stickers came into existence because of Bowser screwing around with the Sticker Festival at the start of the game.



If Paper Jam took place before Sticker Star, then the Royal Stickers wouldn’t exist for the Pokey to use. If Paper Jam took place after Sticker Star, then the Royal Stickers would have already been restored



and the Pokey still wouldn’t have a way to get it. And we know Paper Jam can’t take place in the middle of Sticker Star because Kersti is nowhere to be seen and Bowser’s not corrupted by the Royal Sticker, which also happens right after he destroys the meteor



and isn’t uncorrupted until the very end of the game



A Paper Toad states that the Paper World lacks 3D blocks

Video due to media limit

despite every Paper Mario game having a 3D environment and 3D blocks
Paper Jam makes a point to say the paper characters are super light

Video due to media limit

despite that not being the case in the Paper Mario series

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Even then, it’s known that Mario world and characters canonically change how their bodies and physiology at random instances. they canonically know about Mario’s art style shifts, as shown with Sunshine

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and Odyssey

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showing that Mario and Bowser remember previous games in those art styles, Super Mario 64 in Odyssey

and Super Mario Bros. 3 in Color Splash

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Other examples include: Yoshi being stated to be the same Yoshi seen in Yoshi’s Crafted World

https://nintendoeverything.com/yosh...rgarten-inspiration-flip-side-gimmick-more/3/

(also shown by the History Trailer for Woolly World video due to media limit )

Not to mention yoshi story course in Mario Golf: World Tour

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and 8-Bit Mario constantly reappearing in different games across the Paper and 3D series

we also have this, along with the amous TTYD manual "Mario returns to paper form"

"Before the brothers turned into paper"


and we have mario time traveling to his earlier adventures and meeting his past self who is pixalated)

literally this

Huey states in Color Splash that Mario's been fighting Bowser for 30 years


video due to media limit

Color Splash released during the Mario Series’ 31st year, whereas Mario’s canonically in his mid-20s and the original paper mario released in 2000


The CoroCoro manga (Super Mario-kun) treat Mario and Paper Mario as being the same person.https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario-kun For the Thousand Year Door’s folding curses, Mario gains the ability to flatten himself like paper. https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca8...0.59hQ3Ylthm-8HoOxMOLBZtGJFQxhSFwY3jQQjlFQGQk Paper Jam's Paper Mario is a completely different character https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca8...0.mFbvaTsqNCAS1K4DPs8UbQY3zzDMTBTOATJVAMOm--o While this isn’t canon, it gives a good idea of what other official media think of the idea


and btw, this isn't only a mario thing, other works such as mickey mouse, KH, Gumball, Ben 10, family guy and many others treats the artstyle changes as canon


And mind you with the way paper mario calls back the other games and vice versa, at worst we can argue they're parallel universes that share the events

Oh and also Bowser’s Castle has multiple different portraits of 3D Bowser which appear throughout Bowser's Castle in Origami King, yet no portraits of his paper appearance

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So yeah, that's a lot to go over. Sticker Star apparently started trying to make Paper Mario seperate from mainline, as did Paper Jam. But Paper Jam blatantly contradicts things that happened in previous Paper Mario games including Sticker Star. Not to mention Color Splash and Origami King also made some consistent things a double edge sword with even 3D All Stars Sunshine and Odyssey also acknowledging Paper Mario as just another "Canon change in art style".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As for the Kamek controversy related in Sticker Star.


And Kamek also appears in the prologue of Super Paper Mario. And in Origami King, Kamek mentions fighting Mario countless times or knowing him much later which outright contradicts the Sticker Star statement.

 

[Armorchompy]

Royal Sticker stuff is just a plot hole, I don't see it as indication of canon clashing. The fact that a mechanic from Sticker Star comes back is in fact pretty strong evidence of the opposite, regardless of whether it's poorly handled.

"A Paper Toad states that the Paper World lacks 3D blocks" - No, he says that where he lives you don't see too many, that's a different thing.

"Paper Jam makes a point to say the paper characters are super light despite that not being the case in the Paper Mario series" - That is very inconsistent, they float as if they were paper pretty often, I definitely wouldn't consider them treating it as such evidence of different canonicity. At worst it's a retcon.

Just gonna put all the non-PM "Mario canonically goes through different art-styles" things together because it's a lot of reiterating on a pretty minor point - Sure, I guess? But there's a fuckton of evidence to show that Paper Mario isn't just an art-style, so that means very little. Most of them could be safely considered meaningless fanservice anyways.

"Yoshi being stated to be the same Yoshi seen in Yoshi’s Crafted World" - I literally just countered that, and then someone posted a link straight-up confirming Woolly World (and presumably Crafted World by extension) are a different universe from Yoshi's Island. Are you even reading my replies?

"Huey states in Color Splash that Mario's been fighting Bowser for 30 years" - I get why you would bring this up but it's pretty weak evidence all considered, you can just as easily say they started fighting that much ago in the PM universe too, it's not like they don't share a bunch of similarities already.

"The CoroCoro manga (Super Mario-kun) treat Mario and Paper Mario as being the same person" - That seems very non-canon and I wouldn't really give it much weight.

As for the rest... again I don't disagree that there's some contrasting evidence. The puzzle pieces are never going to fit in fully well, Mario's just too big a franchise for that, but overall they're pretty light stuff compared to the other side of things.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm gonna gather together the evidence on this side, since it's been pretty scattershot so far

 

[Chariot190]

Tbh
It's probably a case of retroactive retcons.

Paper Mario was originally just Mario rpg 2 but square being square happened. The original Paper Mario for all intents and purposes was blatantly intended to be just the same verse, nothing different.
TTYD ran with the paper meme a bit more but was still clearly apart of the same verse, even if it got fucky with the paper aesthetic.

Like the first two games sure, you could consider them canon back then, between cross referencing events and stuff between them (both ways, Mario games referencing paper stuff, and paper referencing nonpaper games) but that obviously changed. It's clear that at least nowadays, paper Mario is its own standalone verse, it exists in the cosmology still, but it's a different or parallel Mario.

Modern Mario and Paper are doing their own things now, they're blatantly not the same character even if originally, they were. Of course, this doesn't mean they don't share events, like the events of Mario 1 still happened in both canons or the events of Mario Party 1/2 still happened, but that's a shared event, it doesn't mean they're the same thing.

Imagine it like how DBZ happened to both the Super anime and manga, they're two different canons, but they both have shared events between them.

And yeah, there's stuff in paper Mario that isn't made of paper, we have things like steel, rock, pure energy and more, but that doesn't mean most of the setting isn't built on paper tho.

Tldr modern paper mario was a ******* mistake but we knew that already.

 

[Lou_change]

So what do we do paper Mario abilities are already listed separately for the most part if I remember correctly

 

[Dust_Collector]

So what do we do paper Mario abilities are already listed separately for the most part if I remember correctly

Yeah but they're listed separately as optional equipment for normal Mario alongside all his other optional equipment with a single tab dedicated to 3 abilities specifically for Paper Mario, stuff like the badges from the first 2 games or items from Super Paper Mario are treated as something we can give normal Mario in the same vein as like the cloud flower or tanooki suit instead of something only Paper Mario would use.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I’ll add that the Royal Pokey sticker was clearly edited between Sticker Star and Paper Jam to avoid that consistency issue. It’s clearly a reused model but they still went through the effort to edit the model to not be the same as the royal sticker crown lol.

 

[Armorchompy]

Self-evident evidence of PM being separate from mainline:

• The... entirety of Paper Jam, from title screen to credits, really. I really can't stress enough how incredibly obvious it is, the entire story revolves around mainline and Paper being two universes with their own paper versions of the characters meeting the flesh and blood ones.
• The Star Spirits work completely different between Mario Party 5 and Paper Mario 64, they reside in a completely different location, serve a completely different role and secondarily, never reference events from PM64.
• The Origami King has a room in it with pictures of Peach from all previous Paper Mario games, and no mainline Mario game. If she was the same character as non-paper Peach, then it wouldn't really really make sense for the decorators to just have coincidentally only hung up pictures of her in games where she just so happened to be in a paper artstyle. To address the "Where's Paper Jam" counterargument, that can be very easily explained by "she was in a different world, they just never had the chance to take a picture of her for obvious reason."
• If you want to treat Paint to be the same force between various PM and Mario games, then characters in Color Splash are completely unfamiliar with it, which they clearly wouldn't be if this was the same continuity as mainline. Personally, I don't think there's much evidence to indicate that, but that is something some people argue.

Evidence of PM people/things being paper:

• PM64
  • The very first thing you see in Paper Mario 64, before you even hit a button, is Bowser screwing with a pre-existing story by physically taping someone into its book, causing them to appear there which come to think of it is kinda cracked hax.
  • In at least one instance, things are changed by flipping them forward like pages in a book.
  • Mario and any of his then-available companions float like paper when falling, rather than dropping like a heavier body.
  • Also in the intro, Mario falls in a paper-like motion.
  • "Mario may be two-dimensional but this adventure is anything but thin!"
• TTYD
  • TTYD has an entire set of mechanics based on Mario folding his paper body in various ways. Now, he needs to be bestowed abilities to do it, but it's still clear evidence of him being made of paper by default given that... well, why would they be paper abilities if he was made of flesh?
  • The Nintendo website quote of "Fold Mario's uniquely flexible features" in fact implies they're just an extension of his natural self's properties. Almost like he's made of paper.
• SPM
  • None! Weird, right?
• SS
  • The developers acknowledge that they've been taking the paper stuff way further than any previous game and then proceed to talk for a good long while about a lot of things that can only really make sense if the characters are indeed paper.
  • 9 Toads can be stuffed in a cabinet without issue alongside a stack of regular paper.
  • Paper people can fold themselves if need be, in the scan a bunch of Toads fold into a staircase shape.
  • "The papercraft game world"
• CS (Note I may accidentally mix up some OK and CS scans, since it's not super important to differentiate them and they look similar)
  • In the intro, a Toad folded up into a paper letter (clearly against his will) is delivered to Peach.
  • 10 Toads are able to maneuver through an air vent together.
  • Getting "creased" is the equivalent of an injury for people, and it can be fixed just by smoothing them out.
  • When talking about Things, Huey notes that that's what the few 3D objects in the world are called as if it's a property that isn't shared by basically all of the world (As a note, this doesn't mean PM has lower dimensional existence or anything along those lines, "3D" here is just clearly shorthand for "not flat").
  • In a series of short videos made regarding the Toad character in Color Splash, Red Rescue Squad Toad breaks the fourth wall and calls the watchers "weird non-flat people".
  • He says that when wet, one must dry to avoid warping, which, yknow, happens to paper.
  • Six toads get (accidentally) crammed into an air duct's slits.
  • Also, one of them "ripped up", but luckily they could tape him together, which again, paper.
  • "Imagine, if you will, a world made of paper"
  • "Our paper thin hero [Mario] has all kinds of foldy talents"
  • "When everything is made completely out of paper, even the most ordinary-looking things can surprise you..."
  • "Not only is Prism Island made of paper..."
• OK
  • The entirety of Origami King's plotline is about paper character being folded into Origami. This is done through magical powers, sure, but both the logistics and the terminology make absolutely no sense if you consider the paper stuff to be just an artstyle.
  • A single Toad is able to fit crumpled up inside a coconut.
  • 7 Toads fit inside a tiny compact ball.
  • Bowser Jr. rolls into a tube on command.
  • It's straight-up said that everything in the world is made of paper.
  • "Face off against the Origami King and his army of paper invaders"

Evidence of Paper Jam being the same as PM:

• Before moving to "real" evidence, let's take a moment to wonder why would they ever advertise this as a crossover with the Paper Mario series to then just make up a completely unrelated paper universe that just really strongly resembles the Paper Mario games? That just... it just doesn't make sense man, it's an assumption that needs a fuckton of backing to even get past Occam's Razor even if there was nothing to contrast it. If it looks like Paper Mario, animates like Paper Mario and is proudly advertised as a crossover with Paper Mario, I think it's fair to say it's Paper Mario.
• Paper Jam Paper Mario inherits some of the Paper Airplane and Paper abilities from TTYD, the Spring Jump and certain animations. The graphic during his intro is lifted from SS, as is the visual for paper enemies being defeated.
• The game's developers explicitly refer as PJ as a crossover between PM and M&L, as if that wasn't obvious. They specifically refer to translating PM stuff to the M&L formula too.
• The Tower Power Pokey from SS appears in Paper Jam, wearing the Royal Sticker from that game. This does create a bit of a plot hole, but it's still clearly not only a returning PM-only character, but one carrying a MacGuffin from the last game.
• "The worlds of Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario have crossed over"

Evidence of post SPM games being the same as the original trilogy.

• Again, Occam's Razor. It's Paper Mario, the title didn't change, most of the designs stayed similar and so on.
• The TTYD stuff in Paper Jam, mentioned above, doubles as this.
• In SS you can find a letter from Goombella from TTYD
• The Origami King has a room in it with pictures of Peach from previous Paper Mario games, implying it's the same continuity.
• Origami King Goombas inherit the Headbonk and Shell Shot move names from the early PM games.

Other

• The "Yoshi" series (Presumably including the Wool games, Yoshi's Story and Tilt N Tumble but not the Island trilogy) is explicitly confirmed to be a parallel universe, creating a precedent for versions of a Mario character playable in their own stand-alone series with a drastically different artstyle that bears an effect on the gameplay being from a parallel universe.

 

[Armorchompy]

I’ll add that the Royal Pokey sticker was clearly edited between Sticker Star and Paper Jam to avoid that consistency issue. It’s clearly a reused model but they still went through the effort to edit the model to not be the same as the royal sticker crown lol.

Not really, the crown looks almost completely the same, they just changed the orb into a spike, which is pretty minor.

Tbh
It's probably a case of retroactive retcons.

I think it's fair, the series gets more and more papery as it proceeds, TTYD dips its toes into it, and then SS and after go wild.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Not really, the crown looks almost completely the same, they just changed the orb into a spike, which is pretty minor.

The point is moreso that they went out of their way to change the crown even remotely. They look similar but were still edited to not be the same thing. The change might be minor, but it’s still an important one. The implication could just be that the Pokey couldn’t let go of the power and got a replacement lookalike.

It’s not like royal sticker crowns look incredibly distinct as crown designs, they’re basic ass crowns.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Not exactly sure of half that statement, since Yoshi series is the backstory to how Mario's past started.

The ending of the first Yoshi's Island game contradicts the story of Mario originating in New York as a plumber. Also, since the characters are canonically actors that can fit any role, I don't think it's important to focus on the consistency of backstories.

 

[Armorchompy]

The point is moreso that they went out of their way to change the crown even remotely. They look similar but were still edited to not be the same thing. The change might be minor, but it’s still an important one. The implication could just be that the Pokey couldn’t let go of the power and got a replacement lookalike.

The "implication" is that they had to draw the sprite from scratch because M&L has a different artstyle, there is literally nothing more to it lol, design changes happen all the time, usually just because the artist thinks it looks nicer that way. They also gave him more spikes and I don't think there's any deep lore behind that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The ending of the first Yoshi's Island game contradicts the story of Mario originating in New York as a plumber. Also, since the characters are canonically actors that can fit any role, I don't think it's important to focus on the consistency of backstories.

Being from Brooklyn is only consistent with stuff like the Cartoons, Comics, and Movies, none of the games really imply they came from there. Just a minor note.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah Yoshi's Island is the "canon" origin I think.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Being from Brooklyn is only consistent with stuff like the Cartoons, Comics, and Movies, none of the games really imply they came from there. Just a minor note.

What about the original Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong arcade games, as well as New Donk City from Super Mario Odyssey? We mustn't forget about those.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

New Donk City is a city that takes place in the same planet as the Mushroom Kingdom and resembles New York, but not really the same. But this is getting into derailment territory. My friend has more arguments which I may go back to copy/paste since he doesn't want me screenshotting or sharing links to his doc.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

New Donk City is a city that takes place in the same planet as the Mushroom Kingdom and resembles New York, but not really the same. But this is getting into derailment territory. My friend has more arguments which I may go back to copy/paste since he doesn't want me screenshotting or sharing links to his doc.

We're not derailing, we're discussing the canonicity of Mario's backstory to see how it relates to whether or not Paper Mario games take place in the same world or not.

The original Mario Bros. arcade game canonically takes place in New York, as I discovered in an archived Q&A event with Shigeru Miyamoto. (His answer to the question about Mario being Italian.)

Anyway, whether it's New Donk City or New York, my point is that Super Mario Odyssey shows that the very old arcade games take place in that location, and that Mario has important history there, most likely meaning he was originally there but ended up living in the Mushroom Kingdom, much like the non-canon media you mentioned before. This means the ending of the first Yoshi's Island game contradicts Mario's more prominent backstory. Other than that, the matter can be interpreted as backstories not being important, because Mario's canonical role is inconsistent by design.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He was born in Yoshi's Island and that is the canonical event of his birth. New Donk City is perhaps the city Mario and Luigi's family moved to and it was called New York back when Odyssey wasn't made yet but New Donk City is the official name for it now. But it's not the same "New York" as the one located in our world was the main point. Mario once had a job there before moving to the Mushroom Kingdom.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

He was born in Yoshi's Island and that is the canonical event of his birth. New Donk City is perhaps the city Mario and Luigi's family moved to and it was called New York back when Odyssey wasn't made yet but New Donk City is the official name for it now. But it's not the same "New York" as the one located in our world was the main point. Mario once had a job there before moving to the Mushroom Kingdom.

It's true that it's possible for Mario to have been born in the Mushroom Kingdom, then moved to New Donk City when he became an adult, then moved back to the Mushroom Kingdom shortly after, but at the same time, given Mario's portrayal, especially since he was made to be Italian because the first games he appeared in took place in New York / New Donk City, I find that Mario's backstory isn't so clear. The iconic story of Yoshi's Island has been officially told three times before with notable differences each time, so I'm still skeptical about if it's truly the origin of Mario and not just stories from a parallel universe like with Yoshi's Woolly World. (In case you missed it, I'll link the proof to that again here.)

 

[Chariot190]

Does it matter? Mainline Mario's backstory ain't affecting whether Paper Mario and Main Mario are the exact same dude.