OPM Tier 7 revisions

[Qawsedf234]

So there's two major things this thread will cover

• Downgrading everyone currently listed as 7-A to "At least 7-B" (Besides Goketsu)

• Upgrading the 7-Cs to High 7-C based on this composite Genos calc

For the first one, everyone currently rated as 7-A based on scaling to Goketsu. The issue however is that no one actually scales to Goketsu:

• There's no statements that directly compare anyone to Goketsu besides Orochi

• There's no one that fights Goketsu evenly enough to scale to the greater universe

We currently base the scaling on a webcomic quote from Genos that would scale Rover to Goketsu, but the manga has retconned Genos' placement in that fight and the quote itself, Meaning the already somewhat flimsy scaling doesn't even exist anymore.

So the following people will be downgraded from 7-A to 7-B: Flashy Flash, Overgrown Rover, Elder Centipede, Silverfang, Bomb, Garou (His 6-C key will remain unaffected however), Black Sperm, Atomic Samurai, Psykos, Blizzard, Evil Natural Water, Homeless Emperor, Sweet Mask, Hellfire Flame, Gale Wind, Sonic, Phoenix Ma (His second key), and Brave Giant's physicals


As for the second point, all of the 7-Cs just become High 7-Cs. However, unlike before, the results are no close enough to upscale anyone up from High 7-C to Low 7-B that doesn't already scale to 7-B.

 

[SuperAPM]

Sweet, thanks for saving me the hassle.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No problem. Also, to make sure, I'm not missing anyone from the 7-A list right? Well besides Brave Giant and PM that I'll edit in now.

 

[SuperAPM]

Fubuki

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, Fubuki needs updating. She only protected Bang & Bomb from a single one of Rover's attacks.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Seems pretty cut and dry, no one did interact evenly with Goketsu and we only have a statement for Orochi being above him.

The retcon of Genos and Rover for Goketsu is also undeniable.

Simple and agree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We also need to remove the ******** stuff from her page as well. But that can be covered in the general profile edit.

 

[SuperAPM]

Yes, I'll make sure to amend Fubuki's profile. I'll be going through a series wide profile cleanup in a couple days in general.

The only thing I think needs discussing is how everyone scales.

 

[Xulrev]

The only argument I can see forthcoming would be those who would attempt to argue 'Well yes but Goketsu is an Executive/Cadre member of the Monster Association so obviously the others scale to him based on title."

I would preempt with this: all the other Cadres fight with esoteric abilities save for Rover (even then, the breath attacks), and Goketsu is solely a martial artist. You can't meaningfully scale his AP based on a title.

Full agreement with Qaws on this. The webcomic canon has been overriden by manga precedence, the statement doesn't scale, to argue Goketsu scales to anybody would rely on some very flimsy logic.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Yeah agreed with all changes. I think Rover's durability should still be 7-A though since he took a punch from Saitama and Gouketsu didn't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The only thing I think needs discussing is how everyone scales.

Imo

• 7-B: Hellfire Flame, Gale WInd, Blizzard,

• At least 7-B: Psykos, Bang, Bomb, Homeless Emperor, Rover, ENW, Garou, Atomic Samurai, Black Sperm, Sweet Mask, Elder Centipede

• At least 7-B, likely higher: Flashy Flash, PM, Brave Giant

Yeah agreed with all changes. I think Rover's durability should still be 7-A though since he took a punch from Saitama.

Personally I'm fine with that. Rover

• Wasn't one shot like Vaccine Man, Goketsu, or Gery

• No selled every other attack that hit him, even a full powered punch from Garou and an ultimate combo move from Bang/Bomb

Or something like: "At least 7-B, likely 7-A"

 

[SuperAPM]

Unless that has a calc attributed to it I don't see why that would make it 7-A. Rover's durability only has evidence of scaling far above EC's, which would give him an "at least 7-B, likely far higher" rating.

 

[SuperAPM]

I'd give Rover, Garou and Darkshine a likely higher rating as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally I'm okay with Darkshine. Garou shouldn't get it imo, since his second key starts out in his base form, which would just be 7-B, then covers everything up to his GS bout. Rover is more difficult, but I don't think he has the best showings of being "At least 7-B, likely higher" like Darkshine or Flashy Flash does.

 

[SuperAPM]

Fair enough

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Rover and Elder Centipede being weaker than Gouketsu smells like pure nonsense to me.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Well what's your evidence against it then?

 

[Xulrev]

Rover and Elder Centipede being weaker than Gouketsu smells like pure nonsense to me.

Maybe intuitively, but by pure feats, literally nothing compares them to one another, and if the feats don't support them being higher, we can't index them higher

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well what's your evidence against it then?

Elder Centipede and Rover are both given far more weight narratively as far as their supposed power amongst the cadres is concerned. Rover in particular, given that he's a mindless animal and is a Cadre, it shows that he's in his position solely because of his raw destructive power. Also he survived an incredibly devastating punch from Saitama, one which I have no doubt would have killed Gouketsu.

Another potential comparison is Psykos considering Black Sperm and Homeless Emperor to be the strongest Cadres.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But that's what Xulrev was talking about. There's no direct comparisons or evidence from anyone. Just the implication that they're strong, which isn't good enough to scale without more evidence. Psykos could also be limiting her pool of Cadre's anyways, since she knew that EC and Goketsu were dead before the raid, so there was no need to include them in her power estimations.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But where is your evidence that one cadre in particular who shows up midway and is one-shot off-screen is supposed to be stronger than all the others? There is none. There's just an absurd reluctance to do basic scaling in this wiki when it comes to OPM that I cannot fathom or understand.

Specially since Gouketsu's feat is just, you know, some random thing that happens without any emphasis while Rover receives constant emphasis on how powerful it is.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But where is your evidence that one cadre in particular who shows up midway and is one-shot off-screen is supposed to be stronger than all the others?

Because no other Cadre has replicated his feat or something of similar magnitude besides Orochi. Rover's feats are all 7-C or Tier 8, EC doesn't have anything better than Tier 8, HE doesn't have anything better than Tier 9 at the moment, Psykos' best feat so far is also only 7-C, and the rest are just as non-notable. If they have far less impressive showings, why should they scale to someone with a much better feat without direct evidence?

There's just an absurd reluctance to do basic scaling in this wiki

Because there's no scaling chain that exists. Its just an assumption.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Of course there are scaling chains. The strongest of the Monster Association are Cadres. They all being so much weaker than Gouketsu (To the point where you are insinuating that some ought to be ranked as Tier 8 or 9!) is ridiculous.

 

[ElixirBlue]

But if were to apply "basic scaling" chain to all Cadre's, Homeless Emperor would have the durability of Bakuzan.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The strongest of the Monster Association are Cadres.

You do know that Goketsu is also a cadre right?

They all being so much weaker than Gouketsu (To the point where you are insinuating that some ought to be ranked as Tier 8 or 9!) is ridiculous.

They are, which is the issue. Scaling wise they're all 7-B or At least 7-B, but based on raw showings they're all much worse. I don't see why we should scale based on nothing but "Well it sorta makes sense" and nothing else.

 

[Xulrev]

But where is your evidence that one cadre in particular who shows up midway and is one-shot off-screen is supposed to be stronger than all the others? There is none. There's just an absurd reluctance to do basic scaling in this wiki when it comes to OPM that I cannot fathom or understand.
Specially since Gouketsu's feat is just, you know, some random thing that happens without any emphasis while Rover receives constant emphasis on how powerful it is.

You're actually switching Burden of Proof here, Matt. We have proof of Goketsu's tier via an objective calc. It would be on YOU to prove the other members scale to him, not on us to prove they don't. It's poor etiquette to try and turn the argument into one such as that.

Also. Goketsu was NOT 'one-shot off-screen'. Suiryu hears a loud fight going on for a very brief time, then we see Goketsu's head get thrown into the arena. You cannot claim from that single encounter that Goketsu got one-shotted by Saitama, and from that try to downplay the interaction. You also have no way of knowing how hard Saitama punched him.

In short, Qaws has proof on his side here. It's quite plain

 

[Schnee_One]

I have to agree with award on this one.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Will have to agree with the OP.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

But if were to apply "basic scaling" chain to all Cadre's, Homeless Emperor would have the durability of Bakuzan.

Homeless Emperor would be the obvious exception to that.

Since we know his fate in the web comic and Drive Knight said his physical attributes were like that of a normal human.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For HE, should we just make him "At least 7-B with energy attacks, 10-B physically", to get rid of those unknown ratings?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If he is directly compared to a normal human, sounds good.

Unless there's anything he does or survives that would put him above 10-B, no matter by how little.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If he is directly compared to a normal human, sounds good.

Unless there's anything he does or survives that would put him above 10-B, no matter by how little.

For the first part he's directly compared to a normal human by Drive Knight, as for the second the only time he would get a better durability feat is when Tornado collapses the base,

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Well, until that is done or anything else that may be done different from the manga is a thing, 10-B works.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

He does have super human speed and reactions.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah he has superhuman reaction speed if nothing else considering he intercepted Zombieman's bullet.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

He also appeared behind Zombieman.

iirc we were shown a hallway shot too, so he traveled a good distance to blitz and surprise him.

 

[ElixirBlue]

God, I hope Tatsumaki vs the Cadre's would be an epic showdown.

 

[Blahblah9755]

There's one statement that I don't think has been addressed. In chapter 74 Psykos tells Gouketsu that if he doesn't leave S class heroes could start "storming the place", and he might suffer a few broken bones. So the implication is that multiple high end S class heroes working together would lose to Gouketsu, but could deal some damage.

Based on that it might be alright to scale the top S class with an "at most" rating.

Also, if people are seriously trying to argue that Gouketsu held less weight than Elder Centipede. Keep in mind that Genos actually thought Saitama would need help to beat Gouketsu, while he didn't have anywhere close to that level of a reaction to EC.

On another note, I was looking at Gouketsu's calc, and there were comments on there from 2/3 calc group members who evaluated it that it might be better to redo it using the anime timeframe, was that ever done?

 

[Tetsucabrah]

The feat didn't happen in the anime.

Unless that ends up changing in the bluray version we can't do anything with it.

 

[Andytrenom]

Don't know about Rover but I'm fine with Elder Centipede no longer scaling to Gouketsu

High 7-C seems fine as well