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The purpose of this thread is to continue the revisions set in motion by the removal of the High 6-A calcs from the Strong World film as last covered in this thread.
Without the High 6-A calcs, we need something new to scale the God Tiers to, and by extension everyone who scales fully or partially to the God Tiers. This scope of this is so large that it may as well be labelled "High Tiers" or "Top Tiers" revision but I digress.
Down below I have listed the most relevant calcs for this revision, the characters affected by this revision, and the arguments for why Kaido's High 6-B calcs are not being proposed as part of this revision.
Calcs for the God Tiers
List of affected Characters
What about Kaidou's High 6-B calcs?
We see pretty clearly that what Kaido is stabilizing are his flame clouds. In turn those clouds can lift and move Onigashima.
Yamato claims that Kaido’s power weakening is causing the flame clouds to dissipate and therefore Onigashima will stop floating thanks to said clouds. However, Yamato isn’t referring to power as in Kaido’s AP, rather she’s referring to the ability. Power by definition can refer to someone’s literal strength (AP) or someone’s abilities (think superhero powers, like how Spider-Man’s spidey sense is a power, but has nothing to do with AP). The reason we know this to be the case is, shortly after Yamato makes that statement, Luffy claims that Kaido’s Haki has gotten stronger after getting blasted by one of Kaido’s attacks. Haki is an ability that directly influences a character’s AP, as Kaido uses his Haki to amp his techniques. Kaido even claims mid-fight that his drinking doesn’t make him weaker, implying it’s more of an amp. We also see throughout the fight that Kaido’ s AP isn’t decreasing as he continues to use stronger and stronger attacks, and manages to keep up with Luffy all while Luffy is getting stronger and stronger. Even as the clouds dissipate at the end of the fight, Kaido is still clashing against Luffy with his strongest attack. So, we can very clearly conclude that it is not Kaido’s AP that is sustaining the flame clouds.
What is most likely sustaining these clouds is Kaido’s life force/stamina. When Yamato makes the claim that his power is weakening, we see that Kaido is injured, covered in blood and bruises. As the fight continues and Kaido gets more injured and closer to death, we see the flame clouds become less and less stable. Yamato and Momo even imply that if Kaido dies, the clouds will disappear. All the way up until his defeat by Luffy where he is incapacitated or maybe even killed, when his flame clouds finally give way and Momo has to use his own flame clouds to stop Onigashima’s fall. This rather concretely displays that Kaido is sustaining the clouds with his own life force/stamina rather than his raw AP power, because we see Kaido’s AP stays the same or even gets stronger throughout the fight, but his HP (for a lack of better terms) is constantly decreasing as he sustains injury after injury. Thus, Kaido sustains the clouds with his life force/stamina.
Kaido’s sustainability of the flame clouds lifting Onigashima is proportional to said stability failing. As the island would fall immediately if Kaido’s flame clouds disappeared.
Kaido’s regular statistics and AP don’t necessarily consistently scale to the energy provided by the flame cloud calcs (High 6-B). Kaido has scaling to Whitebeard’s calcs which are 6-B and his strongest attack is able to briefly contest Luffy’s strongest attack which is High 6-A. However, he doesn’t have any other avenues to High 6-B. I won’t claim that High 6-B is inconsistent for Kaido, since 6-B isn’t exactly far from High 6-B, they’re adjacent tiers. So, I believe that Kaido can debatably satisfy this requirement, but he arguably cannot as well.
Conclusion
Whitebeard will have his justifications updated to have his ratings derived from his 6-B calculations.
Virtually all of the characters listed above who currently scale to High 6-A will instead scale to 6-B through Whitebeard, except possibly the Scabbards and characters who scale to them.
Luffy's Bajrang Gun will still be High 6-A via its own calc.
Votes
Agree: Damage3245, DarkDragonMedeus
Without the High 6-A calcs, we need something new to scale the God Tiers to, and by extension everyone who scales fully or partially to the God Tiers. This scope of this is so large that it may as well be labelled "High Tiers" or "Top Tiers" revision but I digress.
Down below I have listed the most relevant calcs for this revision, the characters affected by this revision, and the arguments for why Kaido's High 6-B calcs are not being proposed as part of this revision.
Calcs for the God Tiers
- Blackbeard's Shima Yurashi: High 6-C (527.7 Gigatons)
- Whitebeard's Shima Yurashi: Low 6-B+ (5.47 Teratons)
- Whitebeard's Kaishin: 6-B (12.53 Teratons)
- Prime Whitebeard Creates Tsunamis: 6-B (12.64 Teratons)
List of affected Characters
- Aramaki (Ryokugyu)
- Ashura Doji (One Piece)
- Basil Hawkins
- Benn Beckman
- Big Mom (Charlotte Linlin)
- Boa Hancock
- Borsalino (Kizaru)
- Chinjao
- Denjiro
- Douglas Bullet
- Dracule Mihawk
- Edward Newgate (Whitebeard)
- Edward Weevil
- Eustass Kid
- Gecko Moria
- Gol D. Roger
- Guernica
- Inuarashi
- Issho (Fujitora)
- Izou (One Piece)
- Jack (One Piece)
- Jesus Burgess
- Jozu
- Kaidou (One Piece)
- Kawamatsu
- Killer (One Piece)
- Kin'emon
- King (One Piece)
- Kozuki Momonosuke
- Kozuki Oden
- Kurozumi Kanjuro
- Kuzan (Aokiji)
- Marco (One Piece)
- Marshall D. Teach (Blackbeard)
- Monkey D. Garp
- Monkey D. Luffy (Post-Timeskip)
- Nekomamushi
- Onimaru (One Piece)
- Patrick Redfield
- Portgas D. Ace
- Queen (One Piece)
- Rob Lucci
- Roronoa Zoro (Post-Timeskip)
- Sabo
- Sakazuki (Akainu)
- Sanji (Post-Timeskip)
- Scratchmen Apoo
- Sengoku (One Piece)
- Shanks
- Shiki (One Piece)
- Shiryu
- Silvers Rayleigh
- Tony Tony Chopper
- Trafalgar Law
- Vista (One Piece)
- X Drake
- Yamato (One Piece)
- Zephyr (One Piece)
What about Kaidou's High 6-B calcs?
- Kaidou's Lift - Calc 1: High 6-B 103.834 Teratons
- Kaidou's Lift - Calc 2: High 6-B 161.993 Teratons
- Onigashima Kinetic Energy: High 6-B 337.782 Teratons
Requirement 1
- Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.
We see pretty clearly that what Kaido is stabilizing are his flame clouds. In turn those clouds can lift and move Onigashima.
Requirement 2
- Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties, or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
Yamato claims that Kaido’s power weakening is causing the flame clouds to dissipate and therefore Onigashima will stop floating thanks to said clouds. However, Yamato isn’t referring to power as in Kaido’s AP, rather she’s referring to the ability. Power by definition can refer to someone’s literal strength (AP) or someone’s abilities (think superhero powers, like how Spider-Man’s spidey sense is a power, but has nothing to do with AP). The reason we know this to be the case is, shortly after Yamato makes that statement, Luffy claims that Kaido’s Haki has gotten stronger after getting blasted by one of Kaido’s attacks. Haki is an ability that directly influences a character’s AP, as Kaido uses his Haki to amp his techniques. Kaido even claims mid-fight that his drinking doesn’t make him weaker, implying it’s more of an amp. We also see throughout the fight that Kaido’ s AP isn’t decreasing as he continues to use stronger and stronger attacks, and manages to keep up with Luffy all while Luffy is getting stronger and stronger. Even as the clouds dissipate at the end of the fight, Kaido is still clashing against Luffy with his strongest attack. So, we can very clearly conclude that it is not Kaido’s AP that is sustaining the flame clouds.
What is most likely sustaining these clouds is Kaido’s life force/stamina. When Yamato makes the claim that his power is weakening, we see that Kaido is injured, covered in blood and bruises. As the fight continues and Kaido gets more injured and closer to death, we see the flame clouds become less and less stable. Yamato and Momo even imply that if Kaido dies, the clouds will disappear. All the way up until his defeat by Luffy where he is incapacitated or maybe even killed, when his flame clouds finally give way and Momo has to use his own flame clouds to stop Onigashima’s fall. This rather concretely displays that Kaido is sustaining the clouds with his own life force/stamina rather than his raw AP power, because we see Kaido’s AP stays the same or even gets stronger throughout the fight, but his HP (for a lack of better terms) is constantly decreasing as he sustains injury after injury. Thus, Kaido sustains the clouds with his life force/stamina.
Requirement 3
- Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.
Kaido’s sustainability of the flame clouds lifting Onigashima is proportional to said stability failing. As the island would fall immediately if Kaido’s flame clouds disappeared.
Requirement 4
- Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.
Kaido’s regular statistics and AP don’t necessarily consistently scale to the energy provided by the flame cloud calcs (High 6-B). Kaido has scaling to Whitebeard’s calcs which are 6-B and his strongest attack is able to briefly contest Luffy’s strongest attack which is High 6-A. However, he doesn’t have any other avenues to High 6-B. I won’t claim that High 6-B is inconsistent for Kaido, since 6-B isn’t exactly far from High 6-B, they’re adjacent tiers. So, I believe that Kaido can debatably satisfy this requirement, but he arguably cannot as well.
Common Limitations
- The character's life force only sustains the structure.
- The character's regular statistics aren't consistently portrayed at the level of what they sustain.
There was an argument in the past that could Momonosuke could scale to the calc ofOnigashima's motion by halting its kinetic energy. However, I believe there is more nuance to that feat that dissuades me from thinking that it’s anything other than a lifting strength feat for Momonosuke.
We see that when Momonosuke tries to stop Onigashima without the flame clouds nothing happens, and Yamato even comments on how that’s not going to work. Yamato even alludes to the only thing capable of moving Onigashima is the flame clouds after seeing Momo fail to do so physically. Then after Momo struggles to do anything for a couple of chapters, he commandeers Kaido’s clouds and starts to avert Onigashima’s descent. Two things of note here: Momonosuke concedes that he cannot lift and move Onigashima like Kaido can, and that he can only divert its path enough to attempt to save people; Momonosuke also implies he’s able to perform this feat due to grasping the knack of Kaido’s flame clouds. Furthermore, we see that even when Momo grasps the clouds it doesn’t automatically halt Onigashima, he grabs them and starts pulling, but Onigashima is seen still moving towards the capital. So, we know Momo cannot physically move/halt Onigashima as he tries and fails to do so, Momo needs to hijack Kaido’s clouds to even divert Onigashima from the capital, and even after doing so Onigashima’s motion isn’t immediately halted. Therefore, it is increasingly obvious that Momonosuke does not scale in AP/durability to the motion of Onigashima.
One last thing to touch on, this feat Momo performs is entirely a lifting movement anyway. He’s grabbing something and pulling/pushing it. It’s the same lift as someone dragging a fire truck for a strongman competition, just on a grander scale. This feat shouldn’t even be in the running for anything other than lifting strength, but I figured I’d address it regardless, as it seems to be the primary argument for scaling the clouds to physicals.
We see that when Momonosuke tries to stop Onigashima without the flame clouds nothing happens, and Yamato even comments on how that’s not going to work. Yamato even alludes to the only thing capable of moving Onigashima is the flame clouds after seeing Momo fail to do so physically. Then after Momo struggles to do anything for a couple of chapters, he commandeers Kaido’s clouds and starts to avert Onigashima’s descent. Two things of note here: Momonosuke concedes that he cannot lift and move Onigashima like Kaido can, and that he can only divert its path enough to attempt to save people; Momonosuke also implies he’s able to perform this feat due to grasping the knack of Kaido’s flame clouds. Furthermore, we see that even when Momo grasps the clouds it doesn’t automatically halt Onigashima, he grabs them and starts pulling, but Onigashima is seen still moving towards the capital. So, we know Momo cannot physically move/halt Onigashima as he tries and fails to do so, Momo needs to hijack Kaido’s clouds to even divert Onigashima from the capital, and even after doing so Onigashima’s motion isn’t immediately halted. Therefore, it is increasingly obvious that Momonosuke does not scale in AP/durability to the motion of Onigashima.
One last thing to touch on, this feat Momo performs is entirely a lifting movement anyway. He’s grabbing something and pulling/pushing it. It’s the same lift as someone dragging a fire truck for a strongman competition, just on a grander scale. This feat shouldn’t even be in the running for anything other than lifting strength, but I figured I’d address it regardless, as it seems to be the primary argument for scaling the clouds to physicals.
Conclusion
Whitebeard will have his justifications updated to have his ratings derived from his 6-B calculations.
Virtually all of the characters listed above who currently scale to High 6-A will instead scale to 6-B through Whitebeard, except possibly the Scabbards and characters who scale to them.
Luffy's Bajrang Gun will still be High 6-A via its own calc.
Votes
Agree: Damage3245, DarkDragonMedeus
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