One Piece speed downgrade (revised)

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Damage does seem to make some good points, yes.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

I pretty much agree with Damage's post here as well.

 

[That_moron2]

What should be done to fix the calc?

 

[Damage3245]

I pretty much agree with Damage's post here as well.

Thanks for evaluating.

What should be done to fix the calc?

I included that in my comment, that we nix the part about the lasers travelling 1.0129 meters before Sanji starts moving. It's not perfect, but it seems the better solution to me if we're going to calc the feat at all.

So the calc would use the 2.29613513357 m or 1.56831142875 m figure:

3.1224366 / 1.56831142875 = 1.99095443849 C

3.1224366 / 2.29613513357 = 1.35986621795 C

Still an FTL result for Sanji.

 

[Raiden38]

Floxy178 has more or less stated the issue in his recent posts, but I'll rephrase to illustrate my objection to part of the calc:

The issue I take with the calc is this section here:

---

---

The assumption that Sanji could only have executed the full 3.1224366 m of movement he performed after Queen shot his lasers and they travelled a distance of 1.0129 meters.

MonkeyOfLife asserts that this isn't just an assumption, but what we directly see happening in the manga itself; that it's not a matter of interpretation but just plain and simple fact:




I'll try to explain why this isn't the case.

Here are the three relevant panels of the scene:

Panel 1 - Sanji falls to the ground wirh Queen looming over him

Panel 2 - Queen fires his optical lasers

Panel 3 - Sanji dodges Queen's attacks amidst explosions

The fact of the matter is, that while in Panel 3 we can see Sanji moving and dodging... What we're looking at is the end result of his movements. That panel doesn't show us when Sanji began moving.

At first glance, I can see the rationale that MonkeyOfLife is going off of here; we see Sanji in one position on Panel 1, we don't see Sanji moving on Panel 2, but then we see Sanji moving in Panel 3 in a different position to what he was in before. So since we didn't see him moving in Panel 2, that means he started moving in Panel 3, right?

Well, no, that's not how things work. We don't see Sanji moving in Panel 2, or in a different position to how he was in Panel 1, because Panel 2 is a zoom-in close-up of Queen's face and his lasers. We can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in that panel, because he isn't being shown to us.

And importantly, time doesn't just pass within the panels, but between them too. It's not a case that we can say that because one panel follows another in the same scene, that means that the transition was intantaneous. Based on earlier in chapter 1034, it takes Queen some amount of time to charge up and fire his lasers - long enough for Sanji to notice the build-up and react to it. Not a long amount of time, but X amount of time.

And then there is the time for the lasers to cross that calculated distance of at least 1.0129 meters as well, so a Y amount of time.

So the calc is asserting that in the X amount of time for Queen to ready his attack, and the Y amount of time for it to cross some distance - Sanji hadn't moved at all from his initial position in Panel 1... and then in Panel 3, he moved the 3.1224366 m distance while the laser was still travelling 0.55541142875 meters, or 1.28323513357 meters.

If Sanji could move that far, that quickly, while the laser was travelling that distance... Why couldn't he have moved at all while the laser was travelling over 1.0129 meters? Or prior to the laser being fired?

MonkeyOfLife tries to rationalize it as;



So until the laser crossed the point of 1.0129 meters, Sanji was still falling and his fall speed relative to the laser would be so slow that he'd be virtually motionless... Until he decided to start dodging out of the way, that is.

Personally I don't think this holds up. As we can see from Panel 1, there is a Thump SFX of Sanji hitting the floor. He has already stopped falling within the context of Panel 1. There is no reason to think he is still falling and incapable of reacting/moving during the transition from Panel 1 to 2, or the events of Panel 2.

There isn't any direct evidence that Sanji is actually paralyzed during the events of Panel 2 either; MonkeyOfLife brought up that there's still visible sparks around Sanji on Panel 1 but as pointed out, Panel 2 is zoomed in on Queen's face. We can't see Sanji during this and we can't say for certain that he is still on his back, incapable of moving. To assert that would be to introduce another assumption for the calc.

All in all, the assertion that because we don't see Sanji moving until Panel 3, that means he didn't start moving until Panel 3, isn't backed by definitive evidence. It is an assumption that is too generous to the calc. Instead, I think that it would be better if we used the full distance between Queen and Sanji for the calc without removing the 1.0129 meters from the distance. It is better not to assume that Sanji was still in the exact same position when time had passed and we can't see him to verify it.

Absolute Agree

 

[That_moron2]

Could we possibly use the anime to get a better view of when Sanji moved?

 

[That_moron2]

No because the anime doesn't follow the manga fully. (That's the justification I got in my last crt about this feat lmao).

Its better than just guessing imo

 

[Vzearr]

Its better than just guessing imo

I deleted it straight away cause it was unhelpful, you're quick.

 

[Damage3245]

Could we possibly use the anime to get a better view of when Sanji moved?

Not for this; it would change the nature of it entirely.

I do have a second feat that I can calc for Sanji tomorrow though.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'll respond to what damage has said later when I have the time

 

[Antvasima]

Could we possibly use the anime to get a better view of when Sanji moved?

I think we have rules for that this is allowed in uncertain cases, as long as there are not major changes in the adaptation, so it seems like a good idea, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Not for this; it would change the nature of it entirely.

How so?

 

[Damage3245]

How so?

The anime scene for it is very different. How Sanji dodges is different, where Queen is when he fires his lasers is different, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The fact of the matter is, that while in Panel 3 we can see Sanji moving and dodging... What we're looking at is the end result of his movements. That panel doesn't show us when Sanji began moving.

At first glance, I can see the rationale that MonkeyOfLife is going off of here; we see Sanji in one position on Panel 1, we don't see Sanji moving on Panel 2, but then we see Sanji moving in Panel 3 in a different position to what he was in before. So since we didn't see him moving in Panel 2, that means he started moving in Panel 3, right?

Well, no, that's not how things work. We don't see Sanji moving in Panel 2, or in a different position to how he was in Panel 1, because Panel 2 is a zoom-in close-up of Queen's face and his lasers. We can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in that panel, because he isn't being shown to us.

It still show us where he was at from him jumping forward and avoiding the explosion from behind him to the right

How Sparking Valkyrie (火花光拳, meaning "Spark Light Fists") works, is by first Ichiji firing light from his eyes, sending out only 2 lasers that's then accompanied with a spam of other lasers from his hands after. The ones Sanji would first have to avoid are the eyes while jumping far enough to not get caught by the explosion behind him

in panel 3, it doesn't skips alot forward in time. Sanji's movements are 3 motions, which are 2 movements to position himself and only 1 movement of moving out of the way of the explosion and the lasers line of fire

You said we can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in panel 2, yet your making a baseless assumption that he did move in panel 2, while I'm not and is only using panel 3 of his positioning which is what's only shown to us from the manga

And importantly, time doesn't just pass within the panels, but between them too. It's not a case that we can say that because one panel follows another in the same scene, that means that the transition was intantaneous. Based on earlier in chapter 1034, it takes Queen some amount of time to charge up and fire his lasers - long enough for Sanji to notice the build-up and react to it. Not a long amount of time, but X amount of time.

The build up is nearly non existent and you would also be hypocritical to argue that, as you can also argue that the lasers could've already have moved when Sanji started reacting in that panel

Lets assume Sanji had time to react before the lasers went off, from the timeframe of Sanji reacting, to legs falling down is still not comparable... His legs would still be in the air and in a vulnerable position while the lasers starts moving through the air

So until the laser crossed the point of 1.0129 meters, Sanji was still falling and his fall speed relative to the laser would be so slow that he'd be virtually motionless... Until he decided to start dodging out of the way, that is.

Personally I don't think this holds up. As we can see from Panel 1, there is a Thump SFX of Sanji hitting the floor. He has already stopped falling within the context of Panel 1. There is no reason to think he is still falling and incapable of reacting/moving during the transition from Panel 1 to 2, or the events of Panel 2.

No, his head and neck just hit the floor and his legs are still in the air, having to fall, the next panel is Queen shooting (Which has barely any charge up) and the lasers having moved some distance

The only way Sanji's positioning would be different would be if you assumed he moved behind the scenes in panel 2, which is literally making a baseless assumption

There isn't any direct evidence that Sanji is actually paralyzed during the events of Panel 2 either; MonkeyOfLife brought up that there's still visible sparks around Sanji on Panel 1 but as pointed out, Panel 2 is zoomed in on Queen's face. We can't see Sanji during this and we can't say for certain that he is still on his back, incapable of moving. To assert that would be to introduce another assumption for the calc.

the panel before, show us his position... I'm going along with what's literally shown to us, your the one still making the assumption that he moved during panel 2 which has still no backing or any evidence whatsoever

All in all, the assertion that because we don't see Sanji moving until Panel 3, that means he didn't start moving until Panel 3, isn't backed by definitive evidence. It is an assumption that is too generous to the calc. Instead, I think that it would be better if we used the full distance between Queen and Sanji for the calc without removing the 1.0129 meters from the distance. It is better not to assume that Sanji was still in the exact same position when time had passed and we can't see him to verify it.

It definitely is not too generous to the calc as I'm only accounting 2 movements of Sanji even tho he actually does 3 (which is jumping out of the way of the lasers line of fire) and mine definitely is heavily supported and backed up compared to your baseless assumptions that Sanji had moved behind the scenes in panel 2

Now while the anime isn't fully 1 to 1, it can still clear up assumptions. The part where the anime adapted the panel of Queen shooting his lasers also support that Sanji had in fact not moved while the lasers are traveling throughout the air

Going against anime supports and manga showings to say that Sanji had moved behind the scene is just downplaying the feat just to downplay it and is a completely unfair stance to have when there aren't any evidence backing that up in panel 2, while there are many supports and also evidence throughout the manga that Sanji would've only started to move until the lasers were coming at him. The calculation is straight up fair and calculates what's being directly shown to us


Otherwise, if we're going to assume movements that are fully not being shown, then Sanji's 3rd movement (Jumping out of the way of the lasers line of fire) would more than have to be incorporated in the calculation as well

 

[Damage3245]

Thanks for responding. I don't want to go in circles about this, so I'll wait to see if any Calc Group Members are convinced by your arguments.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Thanks for responding. I don't want to go in circles about this, so I'll wait to see if any Calc Group Members are convinced by your arguments.

Could you possibly give your input on the last sentence?

 

[Damage3245]

Could you possibly give your input on the last sentence?

Sanji's jump could be considered as part of it as well but it's a more difficult situation for the calc because by that point we don't see the "two lasers" as you mentioned being shot by Queen's eyes. What we need for the calc is the minimum distance Sanji would've needed to travel in order to avoid being hit by the laser; that Sanji then continues moving past the point after the laser has his the ground is extra movement that is not covered by the earlier timeframe. So if you increase scope of the calc to cover additional distance, using the earlier timeframe found via the laser isn't as reliable.

May not be explaining it very well. If it's still unclear, hopefully someone can rephrase while I take a break from the thread for a little bit.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Floxy178 has more or less stated the issue in his recent posts, but I'll rephrase to illustrate my objection to part of the calc:

The issue I take with the calc is this section here:

---

---

The assumption that Sanji could only have executed the full 3.1224366 m of movement he performed after Queen shot his lasers and they travelled a distance of 1.0129 meters.

MonkeyOfLife asserts that this isn't just an assumption, but what we directly see happening in the manga itself; that it's not a matter of interpretation but just plain and simple fact:




I'll try to explain why this isn't the case.

Here are the three relevant panels of the scene:

Panel 1 - Sanji falls to the ground wirh Queen looming over him

Panel 2 - Queen fires his optical lasers

Panel 3 - Sanji dodges Queen's attacks amidst explosions

The fact of the matter is, that while in Panel 3 we can see Sanji moving and dodging... What we're looking at is the end result of his movements. That panel doesn't show us when Sanji began moving.

At first glance, I can see the rationale that MonkeyOfLife is going off of here; we see Sanji in one position on Panel 1, we don't see Sanji moving on Panel 2, but then we see Sanji moving in Panel 3 in a different position to what he was in before. So since we didn't see him moving in Panel 2, that means he started moving in Panel 3, right?

Well, no, that's not how things work. We don't see Sanji moving in Panel 2, or in a different position to how he was in Panel 1, because Panel 2 is a zoom-in close-up of Queen's face and his lasers. We can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in that panel, because he isn't being shown to us.

And importantly, time doesn't just pass within the panels, but between them too. It's not a case that we can say that because one panel follows another in the same scene, that means that the transition was intantaneous. Based on earlier in chapter 1034, it takes Queen some amount of time to charge up and fire his lasers - long enough for Sanji to notice the build-up and react to it. Not a long amount of time, but X amount of time.

And then there is the time for the lasers to cross that calculated distance of at least 1.0129 meters as well, so a Y amount of time.

So the calc is asserting that in the X amount of time for Queen to ready his attack, and the Y amount of time for it to cross some distance - Sanji hadn't moved at all from his initial position in Panel 1... and then in Panel 3, he moved the 3.1224366 m distance while the laser was still travelling 0.55541142875 meters, or 1.28323513357 meters.

If Sanji could move that far, that quickly, while the laser was travelling that distance... Why couldn't he have moved at all while the laser was travelling over 1.0129 meters? Or prior to the laser being fired?

MonkeyOfLife tries to rationalize it as;



So until the laser crossed the point of 1.0129 meters, Sanji was still falling and his fall speed relative to the laser would be so slow that he'd be virtually motionless... Until he decided to start dodging out of the way, that is.

Personally I don't think this holds up. As we can see from Panel 1, there is a Thump SFX of Sanji hitting the floor. He has already stopped falling within the context of Panel 1. There is no reason to think he is still falling and incapable of reacting/moving during the transition from Panel 1 to 2, or the events of Panel 2.

There isn't any direct evidence that Sanji is actually paralyzed during the events of Panel 2 either; MonkeyOfLife brought up that there's still visible sparks around Sanji on Panel 1 but as pointed out, Panel 2 is zoomed in on Queen's face. We can't see Sanji during this and we can't say for certain that he is still on his back, incapable of moving. To assert that would be to introduce another assumption for the calc.

All in all, the assertion that because we don't see Sanji moving until Panel 3, that means he didn't start moving until Panel 3, isn't backed by definitive evidence. It is an assumption that is too generous to the calc. Instead, I think that it would be better if we used the full distance between Queen and Sanji for the calc without removing the 1.0129 meters from the distance. It is better not to assume that Sanji was still in the exact same position when time had passed and we can't see him to verify it.

I fully agree with this, while no one can "prove" sanji moved, the wiki's nature is always being conservative, when there are two possible assumptions we go with the lowballed version and then use evidence to upgrade it to the highballed assumption, if such evidence doesn't exist I believe the downgrade is sound

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The anime scene for it is very different. How Sanji dodges is different, where Queen is when he fires his lasers is different, etc.

Can't the anime version be calced instead of using Sanji's anime movement to calc the manga (assuming that's what you meant)

After all it is trusted by Oda to adapt his work

 

[That_moron2]

What’s to say Sanji didn’t just move the whole distance before the laser was fired?

 

[Kachon123]

What’s to say Sanji didn’t just move the whole distance before the laser was fired?

The fact that his "ahh" came after Queen shot the lasers.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I've checked the anime scene, Sanji fell to the ground, stood up while wounded and then the eyes sparkled and shot those beams, it technically does not contradict the manga and my curiosity to see if he had time to move before the beams fired or not has been answered and it's a yes,

[Episode 1061 7:21]

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

the wiki's nature is always being conservative, when there are two possible assumptions we go with the lowballed version

The Calc is already conservative and lowballed, the lasers has moved past the panel and I didn't factor in Sanji's movement of moving out of the way from the lasers line of fire, it's just downplay to lowball it even more for no reason

and then use evidence to upgrade it to the highballed assumption, if such evidence doesn't exist I believe the downgrade is sound

The calculation isn't at all highballed and the evidence already does exist

 

[Antvasima]

@TheRustyOne @CloverDragon03 @SunDaGamer

We need your further input help based on the latest information posted here.

 

[Floxy178]

@TheRustyOne @CloverDragon03 @SunDaGamer

We need your further input help based on the latest information posted here.

CloverDragon said that he isn't interested in HST threads anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is unfortunate.

 

[Floxy178]

The Calc is already conservative and lowballed, the lasers has moved past the panel and I didn't factor in Sanji's movement of moving out of the way from the lasers line of fire, it's just downplay to lowball it even more for no reason

In the panel where we see lasers going past panel we don't know anything about Sanji.

The calculation isn't at all highballed and the evidence already does exist

Evidence doesn't exist. You just asked us to prove that he moved before lasers, you didn't present anything to prove that he didn't.

You said we can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in panel 2, yet your making a baseless assumption that he did move in panel 2, while I'm not and is only using panel 3 of his positioning which is what's only shown to us from the manga

The last time we see Sanji's position, lasers aren't seem to be shot, so your method relies on an assumption as well and it isn't shown us when he started moving. Sanji could've began moving before attack or after, but we can't know for sure so we should pick lowballed version.

I think best thing you can get is that Sanji began moving when lasers were shot as it isn't as highballed assumption as "Sanji didn't move by the time lasers moved as much as in panel 2 because it wasn't shown".

Lets assume Sanji had time to react before the lasers went off, from the timeframe of Sanji reacting, to legs falling down is still not comparable... His legs would still be in the air and in a vulnerable position while the lasers starts moving through the air

I think Damage and I already said that we don't know how much time after Queen attacked. You state that time difference between panel 1 and Queen starting attack isn't comperable with Sanji's legs falling... How do you know? Queen doesn't start attack instantly. We can't know how much time passed.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

In the panel where we see lasers going past panel we don't know anything about Sanji.

We know from the panel before, so that's what we use

Evidence doesn't exist. You just asked us to prove that he moved before lasers, you didn't present anything to prove that he didn't.

The last time we see Sanji's position, lasers aren't seem to be shot, so your method relies on an assumption as well and it isn't shown us when he started moving. Sanji could've began moving before attack or after, but we can't know for sure so we should pick lowballed version.

I think Damage and I already said that we don't know how much time after Queen attacked. You state that time difference between panel 1 and Queen starting attack isn't comperable with Sanji's legs falling... How do you know? Queen doesn't start attack instantly. We can't know how much time passed.

I did... You just wasn't paying attention or didn't understand what I was saying

while there are many supports and also evidence throughout the manga that Sanji would've only started to move until the lasers were coming at him. The calculation is straight up fair and calculates what's being directly shown to us

literally every time the manga follows their movements panel by panel, in order, right to left (And the animes also confirms that as well if you can't understand them)

The panel with Sanji and Queen does the same, Sanji just hitting the ground with SFX, and then lasers being shot after that and then showing Sanji moving

This is how the manga is literally shown to work, which is evidence... To go against that, you would need something to back up that Sanji moved behind the scenes in panel 2

If Sanji himself moved after panel 1, then that would've been shown, yet we only see him move after it's been shot from the position he was in where he fell from


And also the time difference between sanji and or oven reacting (Very slight face movements) isn't comparable to sanji's legs falling, we also see Oven still being in the air when Ichiji uses his eyes and oven being unable to reach strawhat in that timeframe as well. As I've said, the only way sanji would've moved behind the scene, is if Sanji himself made himself move, which isn't shown and which would've been shown, as its done before as the manga follows the movements in order

Either way tho, Sanji's 3rd movement would take into account if we are going to assume something not shown by Sanji moving behind the scenes, just to lowball the distance between Sanji and the lasers

 

[Damage3245]

If Sanji himself moved after panel 1, then that would've been shown

I fundamentally disagree with this line of reasoning. It's making too big of an assumption.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I fundamentally disagree with this line of reasoning. It's making too big of an assumption.

the much bigger assumption would be thinking otherwise to what's been shown... Like what?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

We know from the panel before, so that's what we use

I did... You just wasn't paying attention or didn't understand what I was saying

literally every time the manga follows their movements panel by panel, in order, right to left (And the animes also confirms that as well if you can't understand them)

The panel with Sanji and Queen does the same, Sanji just hitting the ground with SFX, and then lasers being shot after that and then showing Sanji moving

This is how the manga is literally shown to work, which is evidence... To go against that, you would need something to back up that Sanji moved behind the scenes in panel 2

If Sanji himself moved after panel 1, then that would've been shown, yet we only see him move after it's been shot from the position he was in where he fell from

That cannot be true, and we can see it very clearly in panel 3 that it's not a direct sequence from panel 2
We have at least 2 explosions on panel 3

Both are at different distances one closer to Sanji and another far, which doesn't make sense to be just the inicial eye laser because they would be very close and at the same distance to Sanji.
The eye beam is released first only then are the other "hand beams" which we can see already in this panel and we even have the sound of them being shot.

And they are falling from above we can see some are behind one of the explosions while another is in front of the explosion, so they aren't falling all in the same place like they did before nor at the same time.

Painel 3 is Sanji dodging while Queen is aiming at him and actively attacking one attack after the other changing his aim in the middle. So there is a significant time difference between painel 2 and 3

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That cannot be true, and we can see it very clearly in panel 3 that it's not a direct sequence from panel 2
We have at least 2 explosions on panel 3

Both are at different distances one closer to Sanji and another far, which doesn't make sense to be just the inicial eye laser because they would be very close and at the same distance to Sanji.
The eye beam is released first only then are the other "hand beams" which we can see already in this panel and we even have the sound of them being shot.


And they are falling from above we can see some are behind one of the explosions while another is in front of the explosion, so they aren't falling all in the same place like they did before nor at the same time.


Painel 3 is Sanji dodging while Queen is aiming at him and actively attacking one attack after the other changing his aim in the middle. So there is a significant time difference between painel 2 and 3

... The first things shot at sanji are the 2 eyes lasers as you said, which have already exploded as we can see and we can then see other lasers from Queen coming after and having been exploded only because of Sanji's movements slowing down in the air, nothing you said proves "Queen is aiming at him and actively attacking one attack after the other changing his aim in the middle" and the technique does not work like that

So you basically haven't read what I've said and said something that doesn't matter to the calc even if that was somehow true

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

... The first things shot at sanji are the 2 eyes lasers as you said, which have already exploded as we can see and we can then see other lasers from Queen coming after and having been exploded only because of Sanji's movements slowing down in the air, nothing you said proves "Queen is aiming at him and actively attacking one attack after the other changing his aim in the middle" and the technique does not work like that

That's a big assumption, also slowing down in air only works when he is falling which is not the case as he jumped.
And as I said there are at least 2 explosions which means 2 explosions already happened and 2 beams already hit the floor.

So you basically haven't read what I've said and said something that doesn't matter to the calc even if that was somehow true

This proves there is significant time difference between both panels instead of a direct sequence, which is significant because all your point is that there was no significant time difference between panels so he didn't have time to run.
Also it shows a very weird scene because Queen is not on the third panel which means he was either hit by his own laser explosion or the distance between him and Sanji is much higher than the 3 meters your calc uses.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That's a big assumption

what you mean big assumption...

also slowing down in air only works when he is falling which is not the case as he jumped.

he jumped and then is falling, which is why we see his hand being in front of him to not land on his face

And as I said there are at least 2 explosions which means 2 explosions already happened and 2 beams already hit the floor.

This proves there is significant time difference between both panels instead of a direct sequence, which is significant because all your point is that there was no significant time difference between panels so he didn't have time to run.

My guy, we can literally see where he jumped from and where he was at before... Sanji only made 1 jump to avoid the 2 eye lasers from where he was at, that would be barely any time difference

Also it shows a very weird scene because Queen is not on the third panel which means he was either hit by his own laser explosion or the distance between him and Sanji is much higher than the 3 meters your calc uses.

He's not visable on the third panel by then because he would've already have shot his eye lasers and started to set up another attack

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

what you mean big assumption...

That it was because the explosions only happen because he slowed down, instead of having happened before he leaped.

he jumped and then is falling, which is why we see his hand being in front of him to not land on his face

He jumped forward not upwards he isn't falling at the mercy of gravity his streght makes him keep moving forward

My guy, we can literally see where he jumped from and where he was at before... Sanji only made 1 jump to avoid the 2 eye lasers from where he was at, that would be barely any time difference

Clearly no, you can't, the lasers already hit the floor and exploded, the place he was would be in the middle of the explosion unless you saying Queen failed which makes no sense since the target was supposedly about 2 meters away. There is no reason why this jump was how he dodged the eye laser instead of being a second jump he made after dodging the first time which is why you see a second explosion made by another beam hitting the floor, heck the second explosion is closer to Sanji so this jump is clearly for him dodging the second explosion not the first one.

He's not visable on the third panel by then because he would've already have shot his eye lasers and started to set up another attack

We can literally see in the 3 panel that he is still shooting or the sound effect wouldn't be there, and after the third panel you see Sanji dodging the barrage of attacks and Queen using the eye beam again right after

 

[Floxy178]

We know from the panel before, so that's what we use

Yes, panel 1 which shows a moment unknown time before panel 2...

I did... You just wasn't paying attention or didn't understand what I was saying
literally every time the manga follows their movements panel by panel, in order, right to left (And the animes also confirms that as well if you can't understand them)

The panel with Sanji and Queen does the same, Sanji just hitting the ground with SFX, and then lasers being shot after that and then showing Sanji moving

This is how the manga is literally shown to work, which is evidence... To go against that, you would need something to back up that Sanji moved behind the scenes in panel 2

If Sanji himself moved after panel 1, then that would've been shown, yet we only see him move after it's been shot from the position he was in where he fell from


And also the time difference between sanji and or oven reacting (Very slight face movements) isn't comparable to sanji's legs falling, we also see Oven still being in the air when Ichiji uses his eyes and oven being unable to reach strawhat in that timeframe as well. As I've said, the only way sanji would've moved behind the scene, is if Sanji himself made himself move, which isn't shown and which would've been shown, as its done before as the manga follows the movements in order

Either way tho, Sanji's 3rd movement would take into account if we are going to assume something not shown by Sanji moving behind the scenes, just to lowball the distance between Sanji and the lasers

This is not an evidence, just argument of ignorance.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

We can literally see in the 3 panel that he is still shooting or the sound effect wouldn't be there, and after the third panel you see Sanji dodging the barrage of attacks and Queen using the eye beam again right after

those sound effects are for the other lasers that are not from his eyes... The eye lasers sfx already happened in the previous panel

He jumped forward not upwards he isn't falling at the mercy of gravity his streght makes him keep moving forward

This is just wrong, as he's facing downwards.

Clearly no, you can't, the lasers already hit the floor and exploded, the place he was would be in the middle of the explosion unless you saying Queen failed which makes no sense since the target was supposedly about 2 meters away. There is no reason why this jump was how he dodged the eye laser instead of being a second jump he made after dodging the first time which is why you see a second explosion made by another beam hitting the floor, heck the second explosion is closer to Sanji so this jump is clearly for him dodging the second explosion not the first one.

My guy, there is no second jump... As I've already said.. We can literally see where he jumped from... Which is the location that he fell from in panel 1

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Yes, panel 1 which shows a moment unknown time before panel 2...

Shows panel 1 where sanji just hits the floor (Sound effect), to then Queen's sound effect on his eyes

Literally in panel 1 where sanji was falling and hit the ground, Queen only laughed and said "you get it yet?" Then Shoots his eye lasers and then continues his sentence in panel 3 from panel 1

The unknown amount of time is literally insanely short.

This is not an evidence, just argument of ignorance.

No it literally is 1000% evidence, using the past manga to justify the future manga is literally evidence...

And that evidence support what I'm saying (That if Sanji moved beforehand, it would show the timeline that way from panel to panel, especially when I've justified Sanji himself needing to move as him simply falling down would be too slow compared to Queen)

 

[Damage3245]

The unknown amount of time is literally insanely short.

Insanely short timeframes can still be extremely relevant when we're talking about events that occur relative to lightspeed.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Insanely short timeframes can still be extremely relevant when we're talking about events that occur relative to lightspeed.

I've justified Sanji himself needing to move as him simply falling down would be too slow compared to Queen

Meaning Sanji's own movements would've been shown if he reacted or moved beforehand which the manga has done nearly always already in the past yet didn't and instead showed him in a vulnerable position