- 11,363
- 13,476
I do agree with that.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece speed downgrade (revised)
- Thread starter Floxy178
- Start date
- 18,921
- 13,940
This is Lowkey absolutely insane… I’ll respond to damage’s post later, on Sanji’s feat because it 100% can be calc and explained
You’re agreeing to not calculate something even though you have all the things needed from the manga to literally calculate it… at that point you just choose the most accurate way to calculate… like what?
- 168,510
- 77,216
@TheRustyOne @Vzearr @SunDaGamer
Would any of you be willing to properly recalculate the feat please?
Would any of you be willing to properly recalculate the feat please?
- 2,267
- 2,098
@TheRustyOne @Vzearr @SunDaGamer
Would any of you be willing to properly recalculate the feat please?
Will doAfter MonkeyOfLife has provided the necessary information that is.
.
- 18,921
- 13,940
I could also recalculate it while I provide the necessary information, and from there if there's any issues with it, it can be adjusted@TheRustyOne @Vzearr @SunDaGamer
Would any of you be willing to properly recalculate the feat please?
- 31,573
- 28,022
All he said was that he agreed that the current calc can be removed; not the feat can't be calced at all.
- 18,921
- 13,940
Really? thought you were saying to remove the current adjusted calc because the feat had too many "unknowns" (Since we were talking about the changes we should be doing for the new Calc)
But if what you're saying is true that it only applies to that specific old calc then that's alright
- 31,573
- 28,022
Nah, the issues I was raising was just for the existing calc that's on the verse page / profiles.
- 434
- 122
I don't know about this verse, is there any evidence that the laser travels at the speed of light?First Calc
Re-Calc of Sanji dodging Queen's laser (again)
vsbattles.fandom.com
First issue of original calc is that distance from Queen to Sanji's foot is used. For using this, at the end of the Sanji's movement, Queen's lasers shouldn't be able to cross that distance. However at the end of Sanji's movement Sanji will already in a position that lasers won't be a threat for him. That's why I'll use distance from Queen to Sanji's head/ground.
I also want to address that radius of explosion doesn't matter here since explosion also has a certain speed, there is no need to act like it happens instantly.
The other issue is Sanji's movement distance. Sanji doing first 90 degree movement for repositioning is kind of highball since he would almost face lasers. It's making no sense that Sanji will move to approach lasers. More realistically can be that he turns around on the ground and rushes forward at the opposite direction (considering the next panel). He doesn't need to vertically stand on the ground to rush.
Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats
"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 31,573
- 28,022
Yes, that part is not in dispute and it is long settled.
- 4,362
- 2,877
They'll be Relativistic after this right?
- 18,921
- 13,940
Which is how it's shown? It goes from Queen electrocuting Sanji, momentarily paralyzing him to where he falls to the ground, leaving him in a vulnerable position with his legs in the air, then firing the lasers and after, it's shown Sanji dodge it... That would be the timeline of events from panel to panel
Which can be somewhat accounted for via ang sizing that panel even tho it goes past it, we can use it as a minimum for how far the laser is from Sanji
I mean I don't think it would change much by just removing his head height for example, his other small movements to stand back up should be able to somewhat account for that even tho his body isn't fully in straight line
Sanji has no reason at all to start doing any motions, Queen is firing his lasers because he's in a vulnerable position where his legs are up in the air, and again the panels goes; Sanji just landing, being in a vulnerable position to Queen firing his lasers to then Sanji moving out of the way... Light speed compared to falling speed isn't comparable and would be viewed as stationary so his body would've still be in that position while firing his laser
I tried calculating the feat the most accurate way you could, here:
Sanji (SanjiVsQueenEyeLasers) (Speed Calculation)
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 31,573
- 28,022
Sanji's dodge isn't shown to have happened after Queen fired the laser; the results of his dodge are. We can't say that he remained in exact same position he was in the first panel until after Queen fired his laser.
I don't agree with your interpretation of the scene.
Sanji has no reason to still be in the exact same position while the lasers according to your calc moved 1.0129 meters. It makes no sense for Sanji to be frozen during that time period. It also doesn't take into account the time prior to Queen firing the lasers.
- 19,523
- 17,160
Well that was a lie
- 18,921
- 13,940
... Sanji literally has no reason to move unless a laser was coming at him...
It's not my interpretation, that's how Oda made the scene... Panel by panel, you're the one making the assumption Sanji moved beforehand for some reason even tho that isn't shown, Oda would've shown that if Sanji moved beforehand to the panel where he fires the laser
- 31,573
- 28,022
Don't accuse me of lying. Just because I don't agree with what MonkeyOfLife is asserting doesn't mean I'm lying.
- 19,523
- 17,160
You claimed that there was "no reason," when that's blatantly false as MOL gave you one. Instead of just saying that there's no reason, say why that reason doesn't stand against your own interpretation.
- 31,573
- 28,022
I thought that should've been obvious. Anyone can make up any reason they like for whatever interpretation they hold; if I say "there's no reason" then it's because as far as I see it there's no valid reason. Just because MonkeyOfLife can make a claim without evidence doesn't mean that he's supplied a valid reason.
- 19,523
- 17,160
Then don't accuse me of accusing you of lying if that's what you did. Now are you going to actually address the point or just continue to dismiss his stance?
- 31,573
- 28,022
Kachon, quit it, seriously. Accusing other users of lying on here isn't appropriate. You're filling up the thread with useless posts that don't actually contribute to resolving this topic.
- 19,523
- 17,160
MonkeyOfLife brought up good points and we're waiting for you to actually respond to them. It's not at all productive to just say that his points aren't "valid" in your eyes.
- 31,573
- 28,022
I'm happy to continue discussing it with MonkeyOfLife; just don't be rude abouit it when I'm one of the few staff members bothering to try and help the thread out. Accusing me of lying is a pretty good way of killing my interest in the discussion.
- 31,573
- 28,022
What a worthless apology. Don't bother responding to me with this, please.
Since this is eating up even more posts, I'll be deleting the comments that continue this derailing.
- 19,523
- 17,160
It wasn't meant as an apology, it was meant as an acknowledgment of your feelings.
Anyways, the claim that Sanji changed positions between Queen firing his lasers needs to be supported with something rather than baseless speculation. I haven't seen proof that he moved so I don't see why that is an argument thats being made.
Anyways, the claim that Sanji changed positions between Queen firing his lasers needs to be supported with something rather than baseless speculation. I haven't seen proof that he moved so I don't see why that is an argument thats being made.
- 31,573
- 28,022
That isn't the claim I made. I'll respond to MonkeyOfLife on the topic when I can.
- 398
- 235
- Thread starter
- #150
He's in a vulnerable position as you said, it alone is a reason why he should move before Queen's attack. Obviously I can't say which happened first but you're the one who should prove that when Sanji began moving, lasers were already shot.
In the panel where Queen shot, we don't see Sanji and his position at that time. Only thing we know from there is Sanji's position unknown time before beginning of attack.
Btw if we go with 180 degree body rotation assumption, won't Sanji be hit by lasers in his first 90 degree movement? I don't really see a reason in approaching lasers and decresing distance between them which makes feat harder.
- 18,921
- 13,940
Queen would've noticed first, hence it's shown him firing it first before anything else and Sanji not realizing it like he does here
I already did prove that, literally that's how its shown... Queen firing and then Sanji moving, YOU have to prove Sanji moved beforehand, you are the one going against the manga and what's shown, because there's no showings of him moving beforehand.
He would've been in that vulnerable position he was in, he paralyzed him and the exact moment he touched the floor (still showings of lighting sparks on Sanji), he shot... Sanji falling vs laser moving isn't comparable and IF sanji moved beforehand, Oda would've shown that as he has many times before yet he didn't
Nah, it would've moved between his legs
that's what's shown... The feat is harder because Queen made it that way...
Queen spams lasers
Making sanji move up in the air, when sanji is up in the air... He becomes in a vulnerable position and queen takes advantage of that
while getting paralyzed from the lightning and ends up in another vulnerable position, Queen shoots is lasers close range while extending his neck and everything
- 31,573
- 28,022
I haven't finished my response yet (busy weekend) but this isn't a great argument. We can't make exact assumptions about the author's intention like this, saying "Since Oda didn't dedicate a panel to this, that means it could never have happened." We're not mind readers, and it's adding more assumptions by assuming the author's intention with panelling like that.
- 18,921
- 13,940
It isn't just about Oda's intentions, it's also about what is literally shown... It not being a "great" argument isn't true as it supports everything else that I've said like Sanji being paralyzed and then Queen shoots once he hits the floor, there is nothing indicating he moved behind the scenes to setup dodging the lasers either beforehand or while Queen shoots
- 31,573
- 28,022
I'll agree to disagree on that then; just sharing my view that it's not the best argument that could be made. I'll address the main gist of your argument tomorrow, hopefully.
- 18,921
- 13,940
btw are you only going to argue or are you also going to name other better methods if you have any?
Because going back and forth, nitpicking and saying agree to disagree will just end up being very unproductive while the thread gets basically stonewalled (mentioning this as a heads up)
- 31,573
- 28,022
I thought I made it clear earlier that I didn't agree with completely avoiding calcing the feat. I actually think your version, with a bit of modification, is one of the best versions of the calc to use. I just have to explain beforehand why I disagree with the parts I disagree with in a way that is hopefully clear.
I know it's a bit tiresome given how long the topic has been going on for, but I wouldn't be "nitpicking" if I didn't think there were issues that needed addressing. The earlier arguments I posted were explaining why I thought the original calc for Sanji was flawed, and your version has only existed for a couple days so I've been preparing my next post to address that.
- 398
- 235
- Thread starter
- #158
You're not getting the point, in the panel where Queen attacks, we don't know anything about Sanji's position. Only thing that this proves is that Sanji was moving after that attack, not that he started moving after that attack.
No, it wouldn't.
Yes, they aren't comparable but time difference between these panels is unknown as well. In the panel where we see Sanji, there isn't anything indicating that Queen shot lasers instantly.
- 31,573
- 28,022
Floxy178 has more or less stated the issue in his recent posts, but I'll rephrase to illustrate my objection to part of the calc:
The issue I take with the calc is this section here:
The assumption that Sanji could only have executed the full 3.1224366 m of movement he performed after Queen shot his lasers and they travelled a distance of 1.0129 meters.
MonkeyOfLife asserts that this isn't just an assumption, but what we directly see happening in the manga itself; that it's not a matter of interpretation but just plain and simple fact:
I'll try to explain why this isn't the case.
Here are the three relevant panels of the scene:
Panel 1 - Sanji falls to the ground wirh Queen looming over him
Panel 2 - Queen fires his optical lasers
Panel 3 - Sanji dodges Queen's attacks amidst explosions
The fact of the matter is, that while in Panel 3 we can see Sanji moving and dodging... What we're looking at is the end result of his movements. That panel doesn't show us when Sanji began moving.
At first glance, I can see the rationale that MonkeyOfLife is going off of here; we see Sanji in one position on Panel 1, we don't see Sanji moving on Panel 2, but then we see Sanji moving in Panel 3 in a different position to what he was in before. So since we didn't see him moving in Panel 2, that means he started moving in Panel 3, right?
Well, no, that's not how things work. We don't see Sanji moving in Panel 2, or in a different position to how he was in Panel 1, because Panel 2 is a zoom-in close-up of Queen's face and his lasers. We can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in that panel, because he isn't being shown to us.
And importantly, time doesn't just pass within the panels, but between them too. It's not a case that we can say that because one panel follows another in the same scene, that means that the transition was intantaneous. Based on earlier in chapter 1034, it takes Queen some amount of time to charge up and fire his lasers - long enough for Sanji to notice the build-up and react to it. Not a long amount of time, but X amount of time.
And then there is the time for the lasers to cross that calculated distance of at least 1.0129 meters as well, so a Y amount of time.
So the calc is asserting that in the X amount of time for Queen to ready his attack, and the Y amount of time for it to cross some distance - Sanji hadn't moved at all from his initial position in Panel 1... and then in Panel 3, he moved the 3.1224366 m distance while the laser was still travelling 0.55541142875 meters, or 1.28323513357 meters.
If Sanji could move that far, that quickly, while the laser was travelling that distance... Why couldn't he have moved at all while the laser was travelling over 1.0129 meters? Or prior to the laser being fired?
MonkeyOfLife tries to rationalize it as;
So until the laser crossed the point of 1.0129 meters, Sanji was still falling and his fall speed relative to the laser would be so slow that he'd be virtually motionless... Until he decided to start dodging out of the way, that is.
Personally I don't think this holds up. As we can see from Panel 1, there is a Thump SFX of Sanji hitting the floor. He has already stopped falling within the context of Panel 1. There is no reason to think he is still falling and incapable of reacting/moving during the transition from Panel 1 to 2, or the events of Panel 2.
There isn't any direct evidence that Sanji is actually paralyzed during the events of Panel 2 either; MonkeyOfLife brought up that there's still visible sparks around Sanji on Panel 1 but as pointed out, Panel 2 is zoomed in on Queen's face. We can't see Sanji during this and we can't say for certain that he is still on his back, incapable of moving. To assert that would be to introduce another assumption for the calc.
All in all, the assertion that because we don't see Sanji moving until Panel 3, that means he didn't start moving until Panel 3, isn't backed by definitive evidence. It is an assumption that is too generous to the calc. Instead, I think that it would be better if we used the full distance between Queen and Sanji for the calc without removing the 1.0129 meters from the distance. It is better not to assume that Sanji was still in the exact same position when time had passed and we can't see him to verify it.
The issue I take with the calc is this section here:
The assumption that Sanji could only have executed the full 3.1224366 m of movement he performed after Queen shot his lasers and they travelled a distance of 1.0129 meters.
MonkeyOfLife asserts that this isn't just an assumption, but what we directly see happening in the manga itself; that it's not a matter of interpretation but just plain and simple fact:
I'll try to explain why this isn't the case.
Here are the three relevant panels of the scene:
Panel 1 - Sanji falls to the ground wirh Queen looming over him
Panel 2 - Queen fires his optical lasers
Panel 3 - Sanji dodges Queen's attacks amidst explosions
The fact of the matter is, that while in Panel 3 we can see Sanji moving and dodging... What we're looking at is the end result of his movements. That panel doesn't show us when Sanji began moving.
At first glance, I can see the rationale that MonkeyOfLife is going off of here; we see Sanji in one position on Panel 1, we don't see Sanji moving on Panel 2, but then we see Sanji moving in Panel 3 in a different position to what he was in before. So since we didn't see him moving in Panel 2, that means he started moving in Panel 3, right?
Well, no, that's not how things work. We don't see Sanji moving in Panel 2, or in a different position to how he was in Panel 1, because Panel 2 is a zoom-in close-up of Queen's face and his lasers. We can't make any decisive judgements about where Sanji is or what he is doing in that panel, because he isn't being shown to us.
And importantly, time doesn't just pass within the panels, but between them too. It's not a case that we can say that because one panel follows another in the same scene, that means that the transition was intantaneous. Based on earlier in chapter 1034, it takes Queen some amount of time to charge up and fire his lasers - long enough for Sanji to notice the build-up and react to it. Not a long amount of time, but X amount of time.
And then there is the time for the lasers to cross that calculated distance of at least 1.0129 meters as well, so a Y amount of time.
So the calc is asserting that in the X amount of time for Queen to ready his attack, and the Y amount of time for it to cross some distance - Sanji hadn't moved at all from his initial position in Panel 1... and then in Panel 3, he moved the 3.1224366 m distance while the laser was still travelling 0.55541142875 meters, or 1.28323513357 meters.
If Sanji could move that far, that quickly, while the laser was travelling that distance... Why couldn't he have moved at all while the laser was travelling over 1.0129 meters? Or prior to the laser being fired?
MonkeyOfLife tries to rationalize it as;
So until the laser crossed the point of 1.0129 meters, Sanji was still falling and his fall speed relative to the laser would be so slow that he'd be virtually motionless... Until he decided to start dodging out of the way, that is.
Personally I don't think this holds up. As we can see from Panel 1, there is a Thump SFX of Sanji hitting the floor. He has already stopped falling within the context of Panel 1. There is no reason to think he is still falling and incapable of reacting/moving during the transition from Panel 1 to 2, or the events of Panel 2.
There isn't any direct evidence that Sanji is actually paralyzed during the events of Panel 2 either; MonkeyOfLife brought up that there's still visible sparks around Sanji on Panel 1 but as pointed out, Panel 2 is zoomed in on Queen's face. We can't see Sanji during this and we can't say for certain that he is still on his back, incapable of moving. To assert that would be to introduce another assumption for the calc.
All in all, the assertion that because we don't see Sanji moving until Panel 3, that means he didn't start moving until Panel 3, isn't backed by definitive evidence. It is an assumption that is too generous to the calc. Instead, I think that it would be better if we used the full distance between Queen and Sanji for the calc without removing the 1.0129 meters from the distance. It is better not to assume that Sanji was still in the exact same position when time had passed and we can't see him to verify it.
