One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8

[Ronnijuro]

@Damage3245

I read you somewhere saying something like: "Why we should scalling the Fujitora's lifting rubble feat to others Admirals if he did specifically because of his fruit?". Now I will ask, why Pica's manipulation of stones (when he remodeled DR) give scalling to the others executives? That not makes sense too, like the example with Fujitora.

Elizabello doesnt have the same durability as his AP with King Punch, that's crazy. He is the definition of glass cannon. And he releases a shockwave, it's not a direct punch. It works similar to Tsunade/Sakura's punch from Naruto (they release an amount of chakra through the fist, but they dont have that durability in their arms). And bases on this and this and this we have some things:

-Zoro praised Sai's drill, Sai praised Zoro's cutting feat, Zoro' slash from where he was wasnt enough to cut Pica, King Punch from that distance proved to move Pica's upperhalf but it didnt have enough power to destroy it so Zoro' slash from that distance would move that part of Pica too. So those 3 attacks are in the same tier. Yeah, probably for you not because probably Sai's drill calc is below Zoro's one and etc, well, calcs are not the holy bible, we have the manga.

-And herewe have Bartolomeo which eyes popped out after seeing that Zoro's attack, so no, clearly he is below Zoro in power, and below King Punch ofc.

 

[Damage3245]

@Ronnijuro; Elizabello's durability does currently scale to his Lite King Punch. So if that's wrong that's something we need to fix.

 

[Ronnijuro]

Is the same, it works = like the King Punch full charged and he does not have any durability feats. He didnt even have a rival (almost he didnt even have any screen at all) and only was charging his KP. Orlumbus got more screen btw, until the scene where he used the full charged KP again.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Ronnijuro

>1st paragraph

We had this discussion like three times before. Newton Third Law is all you need to know. Please don't bring old discussions without overlooked evidence since these revisions have been going on for almost a year and we do not need to get back to old discussions.

>2nd paragraph

Personally I think it's the opposite actually. Elizabello has a durability high enough to withstand the King Punch without broking his arm but he can't use the same strength without preparation, making him a tank.

>3rd paragraph

Characters' reactions and statements are good, but there's no indication that Sai is even comparable to Zoro. The same goes to Elizabello.

>4th paragraph

Barto isn't scaling to Zoro, I don't get this point. His barriers scales to King Punch since it directly stopped it and was able to one-shot Elizabello.

 

[Ronnijuro]

-Newton's third law is when there is a direct contact. I explained with the Sakura/Tsunade's jutsu. They release the chakra on the tip of their fists and boom! They dont need to have the same durability as their AP. The same is with KP and Elizabello, he releases a shockwave.

-He was oneshoted by a Barrier push from Bartolomeo basically, and Bartolomeo doesnt have an AP like Zoro which is in the same tier as the full charged KP or Sai's drill. Bartolomeo freak out with the 1080 Pound Ho from Zoro and he said himself that his barrier is not big enough to stop Pica's punch 1 but he could stop easily Elizabello's KP and a Light KP with some minutes charged is Pica's punch/2.

-Sai's got the power to open the ice continent. Actually that feat is better than Zoro's one, because Chinjao with his flat head he only did a scratch on the ice and with the drill he did that destruction. And a old Chinjao tied in clash of fists against Luffy G2+CoA <<< head attack (flat) from his old version < head attack (flat) from his "Prime". But we can put Zoro's attacks in the same tier as Sai's drill and Elizabello full charged KP for what I explained above in other comment.

-Durability's feat. To attack with the barrier he needs to throw it at X speed which gives him X ap. There is no relation.

 

[The_Calaca]

Pica has to be in contact with the stone and regarding Issho the energy comes directly from him, not some external source like the sword (as some people theorized before).

Barto's barriers >> King Punch. Plus, saying that he freaked out of Zoro's attack is quite obvious since that's a 100+MT attack while the King Punch is only 40MT strong.

>He said himself that his barrier is not big enough to stop Pica's punch

Big enough =/= Strong enough.

Opening the ice continent is currently a Low 7-C feat. If you try to argue something about this saying that it's an actual continent please don't. We have a discussion rule preventing people from doing this with that argument after the last attempt.

We currently dismiss Chinjao scaling to Luffy. The moment Luffy got serious he one-shoted Chinjao.

>Last bit

What? No, it's not like that in the slightlest. If we were to apply KE to every feat most characters'd ge 9-B at best. Plus, the Barrier isn't made by matter nda as such we can't give it a density to get X AP with that idea. Barto one-shotted Elizabello who, in fact, can tank his own King Punch, so he should get 7-B AP with barriers. Same with Durability.

 

[Ronnijuro]

> Pica has to be in contact with the stone and regarding Issho the energy comes directly from him, not some external source like the sword (as some people theorized before)

Why are talking about Issho here? Ofc, in this case, Pica's manipulation of the field gives Fujitora scalling because he manipulates the field too, more or less with his power.

> Barto's barriers >> King Punch. Plus, saying that he freaked out of Zoro's attack is quite obvious since that's a 100+MT attack while the King Punch is only 40MT strong.

Durability. Bartolomeo didnt do something like the KP with his barriers. And like I said, calcs are not the holy bible. The example I put is quite good regarding this. Zoro's slash from that mountain to Pica's golem was not enough to cut him (Plan 1) and Elizabello KP full charged from the same place only pushed Pica's upper half away from King's Plateau. But we know that a Light KP is the equivalent of destroying half of Pica's arm if it is thrown for near, so a full charged KP can destroy Pica's upper half if it is thrown from near like Zoro' slash from near cut Pica's upper body.

> Big enough =/= Strong enough.

In that context, big = stronger, because he can protect himself and Robin and Rebecca easy and even more people, but his barrier is not big enough for stop the punch. So the meaning is clear, bigger = better

> Opening the ice continent is currently a Low 7-C feat. If you try to argue something about this saying that it's an actual continent please don't. We have a discussion rule preventing people from doing this with that argument after the last attempt.

Where I said something about the ice continent and a Continental lvl? I'm comparing Luffy's lvl and Zoro's lvl based on the damage to the ice "continent" with the flat head.

> We currently dismiss Chinjao scaling to Luffy. The moment Luffy got serious he one-shoted Chinjao.

Chinjao without chronic pain from his fight against Luffy = Luffy G2+CoA but below G3+CoA

> What? No, it's not like that in the slightlest. If we were to apply KE to every feat most characters'd ge 9-B at best. Plus, the Barrier isn't made by matter nda as such we can't give it a density to get X AP with that idea. Barto one-shotted Elizabello who, in fact, can tank his own King Punch, so he should get 7-B AP with barriers. Same with Durability.

You don't need calcs for any shit we have lol! Stop thinking about calcs!

 

[The_Calaca]

>Bartolomeo didnt do something like the KP with his barriers

AoE fallacy. Barto is currently listed as 7-B for the wrong reasons, I concede but he should scale to 7-B with barriers for the reason that Elizabello's Durability should scale to his King Punch and Barto one-shoted him.

I don't get the point in the rest of the paragraph about Elizabello punching Pica from a closer distance. What are you trying to say with that?

>In that context, big = stronger

Not quite. There's no reason to think Barto meant that. Having more AoE doesn't make you stronger. You just affect more field with your attacks. Barto activates a barrier, the barrier stops part of the punch, but the rest of the rocks will go from the sides anyway, potentially hurting them.

>Where I said something about the ice continent and a Continental lvl? I'm comparing Luffy's lvl and Zoro's lvl based on the damage to the ice "continent" with the flat head.

I'm just preventing you from opening that discussion again.

I don't understand what Chinjao has to do with Luffy and Zoro depending on if his head is flat or not anyway. Could you please elaborate a bit further to make your point easier to comprehend?

>Chinjao's scaling

That'd mess the scaling a lot, no. We have discussed Chinjao scaling to Luffy and it was rejected.

 

[Ronnijuro]

>AoE fallacy. Barto is currently listed as 7-B for the wrong reasons, I concede but he should scale to 7-B with barriers for the reason that Elizabello's Durability should scale to his King Punch and Barto one-shoted him.

The problem is Elizabello doesnt have that durability and Barto doesnt have too any feat with that AoE for example.

>I don't get the point in the rest of the paragraph about Elizabello punching Pica from a closer distance. What are you trying to say with that?

Bruh, it's pretty clear. Zoro's plan 1 was to launch a slash from where he was to Golem Pica, but he said the slash would not be enough to cut him. And then Elizabello with the KP launched it from that same spot as Zoro but he didnt destroy Pica's upperhalf because the shockwave decreased its power because of that large distance between them.

So we have some conclusions, there are 2 options to Zoro's claim:

1: his slash from the plateau would arrive to Golem Pica but because of the distance it would have been weak enough to not even move/push Golem Pica

2: his slash from the plateau would arrive to Golem Pica with enough energy to push/move him

Elizabello KP was in this 2┬║ option.

So there are two final conclusions:

-If we consider the 1┬║ option for Zoro, KP full charged > Zoro' slash

-If we consider the 2┬║ option for Zoro, Oda made a paralelism/simile between both, so KP full charged = Zoro' slash

And for me is the second one, Zoro's slash = KP full charged

But Bartolomeo was popping his eyes out because of this or this or he was unable to stop this. It's quite clearly bruh, Bartolomeo doesnt have the attack power of a KP full charged, not even the light one and his feat in the Colosseum is a durability feat for his barriers, that's all. Elizabello is glass cannon and his technique works like I explained before with the Tsunade/Sakura example, here the 3┬║ Newton law doesnt works or even it works IRL, for the author no because of what I explained and proved.

> I don't understand what Chinjao has to do with Luffy and Zoro depending on if his head is flat or not anyway. Could you please elaborate a bit further to make your point easier to comprehend?

A Luffy G2 casual kick with indirect damage destroyed a 400 x 500 x 400 rock formation sending Hody crashing against it.

that kick < Luffy G2 + CoA normal punches/kicks < Luffy G2 + CoA specific techniques (RedHawk, HawkRifle, etc) < Chinjao's drill with flat head <<< Sai/Chinjao drill with his normal head < Elephant Gun

Chinjao with flat head barely scratched the ice continent's floor and with the normal head he opened a the floor tens of meters in width and 100+ meters long. The difference between the same techniques but with different head shape is enormous.

So, like I said, actually Sai's drill can be better than Zoro's feat. Why? Because Luffy G2 + Haki is Doflamingo lvl, he destroyed a Black Knight and Doflamingo defeated a Zoro character lvl in seconds. And a casual Luffy already can destroy small "mountains" with indirect damage, so Zoro's feat is not really so impressive.

But we can say in favor for Zoro that he was impressed with Sai's drill but not enough impressed to say something which implies a superiority over him. And Sai and Chinjao were impressed too about Zoro's power but not enough to implies that he is above the Drill technique.

So, like I was saying previously, Zoro, Elizabello and Sai should be in the same tier in attack power. It doesnt matter what the numbers for the Sai's calc or Zoro's one says, calcs are only for reference and useful when you dont have much data, this is not the case.

Btw, Sai and Chinjao are like Elizabello more or less, glass cannons. But in this case, they have the same durability as their power because in this case there is a direct contact between their drills and the place where they do the attack, in this case the 3┬║ Newton law is applicable. But this durability is only on their drills (on Sai's foot and on Chinjao's head).


> That'd mess the scaling a lot, no. We have discussed Chinjao scaling to Luffy and it was rejected.

I don't know what you discussed, but Chinjao before and during his fight with Luffy is Luffy G2+CoA lvl. He was weakened after that to the point Lao G suppresed him. That is his lvl.

 

[The_Calaca]

Elizabello's Durability being Low 7-B+ is a mistake we should fix. He uses a 7-B attack coming directly from him with no repercussions after all.

Stop using the AoE Fallacy to prove that Barto doesn't scale to 7-B.

>KP from point-blank

Oh, I get it now. So the KP is actually far higher when we consider the distance. That should make Elizabello's AP At least 7-B, likely higher, applying the same for his Durability. Barto scales.

Sadly, we have no more evidence of how strong a full charged KP is when it's used from a closer distance and there's little to no feats besides that one to scale Elizabello to Zoro.

>Barto vs Pica

Again, big enough =/= strong enough. Calcs aren't set in Stone but it's a good hint of the differences in power and the barriers don't have anti-feats to suggest Pica would break them. We could argue that it couldn't withstand a 7-A+ punch but there's no evidence of this to work with.

Naruto's examples don't work when we consider the differences between them and Elizabello. I explained why Eliz should scale to his AP in Durability, but not his regular AP ofc.

Why are you using that feat to justify Chinjao scaling to Luffy? That makes no sense as an argument. Doing it would lead to some scaling issues and inconsistencies.

>Difference between flat-head Chinjao and normal head Chinjao.

Yeah, the difference between a no-feat and a Low 7-C. Or the difference between 0 and 100.

>Sai > Zoro

See? This is the problem that will pop up if we scale Chinjao to Luffy.

The most you'd get is adding "higher" to the profiles. Even Elizabello's true AP is unknown and we can'tscale him to characters 20x stronger than his strongest feat.

Your point about giving the durability only on their drills makes no sense. We don't give X Durability to Y part of the body. The feedback goes through the whole body and if Chinjao's head were the only part of his body that has the Durability to tank the Kiryu Kirikugi his body would explode because the KE can't be absorbed just like that. Same with Sai.

There's no hint that Chinjao's current drill is as strong as when he was in his prime. Let alone his Mukiryu Mukirikugi, which is a severely weakened state of the technique (which again, has no impressive feats atm). Your argument relies on the fact that Chinjao was as strong as his prime self, which is untrue.

Well, at least we can upgrade the characters based on the evidence you brought.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Ronnijuro - In the case of Chinjao, he only ever matched or harmed Luffy while using Haki, which is basically Luffy's kryptonite. We don't put Haki in character's AP simply because we do not know the value in which Haki enhances one's attacks, and also DF users are weakened when faced with Haki/Seastone. The fight also occurred off-panel, and when we jumped back, a single Hawk Rifle nearly KO'd Chinjao despite the latter using Haki to defend himself, and Luffy only got serious once Chinjao was insulting Ace, and Chinjao was promptly one-shot and had his head reformed by the punch.

There's also outlier cases, such as Cavendish blocking Doflamingo's attack that was intended to kill Law (and previously completely pierced his shoulder), but we don't scale Cavendish because that was a plot convenience and one time thing.

Meanwhile, you have the Black Knight, Doflamingo, and Fujitora who are each capable of easily hurting Luffy with punches and kicks without Haki, and can match or exceed his blows, so they'd scale to his AP/Dura--especially since we actually see the fight happening, and Chinjao vs Luffy was entirely off-panel until we cut back to Luffy finishing the fight.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Maybe it just me, but I feel like Luffy mostly interacted with the Colosseum fighters with G2, one-shotting Hajrudin with a G2 punch and I keep seeing steam from Luffy when he matched a punch with Chinjao, and of course the next time we see Luffy interacted with Chinjao is with another G2 attack. I think there was another instance of G2 Luffy interacting with Chinjao in Chapter 708.

To me, Dressrosa Luffy's rating could be: Unknow in Base, At least Low 7-B+ (Superior to the likes of Chinjao, and capable of one-shotting the Colosseum Fighters like Sai and Hajrudin), possibly 7-A+ with Gear 2nd (Should be at least comparable to the other Monster Trio. Easily kicked away Trebol. Destroyed Donflamingo's Black Knight), High 7-A with Gear 3rd (Can harmed Fujitora), 6-C with Gear 4th (Stronger than before. It was implied by Doflamingo to have tripled his attack power from his previous limit)

 

[CinCameron20]

@Kobster -

First link: I don't see how this is relevant due to Hajrudin being KO'd for the rest of the fight by this punch.

Second Link: I don't see the steam, unless you mean the stuff surrounding both Luffy and Chinjao. We don't see Luffy going Gear 2nd--that was an anime-only thing. But again, Chinjao was using Haki, and Luffy is less effective against it like Seastone.

Third Link: That's the attack that nearly one-shot him. His eyes rolled to the back of his head, he went flat on the ground, and spewed some blood (despite blocking with Haki). Chinjao clearly didn't tank that.

• But I will note that Chinjao himself should be significantly higher than the rest of the Coliseum fighters, as he one-shot Ideo--who is considered to be high tier among them, and his Drill Head gives him higher AP by default.

I disagree with this change to Luffy. He struck Trebol while in Base. Doflamingo's Black Knight hurt Luffy with a Kick and left him battered by the time it was destroyed, and if Luffy's blunt defense scales to Fujitora, it would make the BK High 7-A--at least in AP. Its Durability is incredibly inconsistent.

Luffy should remain the same, just with the changes to Gear 3rd for scaling to Fujitora, which @Damage - even if you argue that Fujitora's attacks mustn't apply 1.9 GT in each instance, this argument is moot due to how scaling works on the wiki, and also, like I argued, the AP will scale from a character's most impressive showings. You bring up Goku's Kamehameha and punches, but we've seen neither destroy an entire universe (except that one time where SSG Goku and Beerus' clashes reverberated across the universe and damaged some of it, but that's not 3-A at all--they still scale higher than this--merely because of one or two instances they scale from that are far beyond what they have personally displayed). Fujitora will be High 7-A in AP due to his feat, which extends to Luffy's Durability for taking multiple attacks from him and coming out quite undamaged, and his AP for G3 due to matching him in a clash and pressuring him greatly in their fight, which would affect Fujitora's Durability since he was only slightly damaged from Luffy's punches. Neither were exactly strong enough to truly hurt the other in any case.

And if you want to argue that Fuji's AP was hampered by holding the rubble in the air, all that can be argued is that the PE be removed from what Luffy scales to, since that's all the energy it would take for the rubble to remain in the air.

 

[Damage3245]

Scaling on this wiki doesn't assume that a characters maximum shown attack potency scales to every single one of their attacks.

On a different topic, the members of CP9 need Armament and Observation haki added. Can anyone do that please?

EDIT: I'd also like to get the scaling settled for a few other Dressrosa Arc characters first before coming to a decision about Luffy.

 

[CinCameron20]

CP9? It only applies to CP0, iirc.

 

[Damage3245]

The recent Vivre Card entries for the members of CP9 confirmed both forms of Haki for all them (except for Nero and Spandam).

 

[CinCameron20]

Source link, if any?

I find it strange since none of them really did display any usage of it, even Rob Lucci wasn't effectively hurting Luffy until he used his Zoan powers.

 

[Damage3245]

This page contains a summary of all the new info, and pictures of the cards.

I do also think that it is a bit of a retcon.

There was a scene where Lucci appeared to draw blood with a kick to the face. Could possibly be a sign of basic Haki.

EDIT: It is mentioned further on in the thread that Lucci's profile supposedly says he learned Haki over the timeskip. So the others could have as well.

 

[Xulrev]

I don't buy it being a retcon; Luffy always commented on people being able to hurt him physically if they interacted with his body as if it were ordinary.

 

[Stefano4444]

I'm going to say it again, i don't think it is trully necessary scaling Gear 3rd Luffy and Fujitora for putting the latter at High 7-A, not with the current gap be that small.

Considering that scaling wise Luffy with just Gear 2 should be stronger than Mountain level+ (838.527 Megatons) characters, we could just put Gear 3rd Luffy at Likely High 7-A or just High 7-A and call it a day.

Doing so in anycase we will still end up with Fujitora, Gear 3rd and Doffy be High 7-A (regardless of whether or not Gear 3rd Luffy scale to Fujitora or Fujitora scale to other admirals).

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; Gear 2 Luffy currently being rated above 838 Megatons is part of what I want to address in the scaling of the Dressrosa Arc characters.

But until that is resolved, if you want to put Luffy's Gear 3 as Likely High 7-A then I guess it would be fine for now. But I don't think we should make wide-scale changes to more profiles yet.

 

[Ronnijuro]

@Damage3245

That's CP0, not CP9.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245

That's CP0, not CP9.

I was just going off of this info:

> 2. All CP9 members, excluding Spandam and Nero (who has already been kicked out 2 years ago), are confirmed to have CoA (Busoshoku Haki) and CoO (Kenbunshoku Haki).

 

[Ronnijuro]

@Calaca Vs>Elizabello's Durability being Low 7-B+ is a mistake we should fix. He uses a 7-B attack coming directly from him with no repercussions after all.

Stop using the AoE Fallacy to prove that Barto doesn't scale to 7-B.

It would be a fallacy if I say Barto is below any prets character attack power because he didnt show any AoE compared to them, and we know that Barto is above prets characters so we dont need feats with AoE from him. But this is not the case, here we dont know if he is above Elizabello's KP, but like I proved, Elizabello's KP is in the same tier as Zoro power if not above, and Barto was clearly below Zoro seeing his reactions to his attacks.

> Oh, I get it now. So the KP is actually far higher when we consider the distance. That should make Elizabello's AP At least 7-B, likely higher, applying the same for his Durability. Barto scales.

Sadly, we have no more evidence of how strong a full charged KP is when it's used from a closer distance and there's little to no feats besides that one to scale Elizabello to Zoro.

We have Zoro's statement about what would happened if he throwed his slash from that distance, that's an evidence + KP from that distance and what did to Golem Pica and we have too the feat with the Light KP with some minutes charged. Elizabello is AT LEAST in the same tier with his KP. >Again, big enough =/= strong enough. Calcs aren't set in Stone but it's a good hint of the differences in power and the barriers don't have anti-feats to suggest Pica would break them. We could argue that it couldn't withstand a 7-A+ punch but there's no evidence of this to work with.'Naruto's examples don't work when we consider the differences between them and Elizabello. I explained why Eliz should scale to his AP in Durability, but not his regular AP ofc.

Why are you using that feat to justify Chinjao scaling to Luffy? That makes no sense as an argument. Doing it would lead to some scaling issues and inconsistencies.

Big enough in this case = stronger, why Barto is saying that then? You are ignoring completely the statements bruh and using indirectly arguments based on the calcs. Like I said the calcs are not something definitive and Oda doesnt care if Sai's calc or Elizabello's calc is below Zoro's one.

There is no direct contact in Elizabello punches, he sends shockwaves and his technique is quite special so we cant say that he is withstanding the same force in his arm. And there is no other durability feat at all, he didnt even have screen against anyone and in Colosseum he needed to be protected to charge his KP. If he has that durability, why even care about charging the KP when no one can harm him and he only needs to fight in a normal way?

>Yeah, the difference between a no-feat and a Low 7-C. Or the difference between 0 and 100.

Again with the arguments involving calcs bruh. Why should I care he has no feats destroying something? We know his flat head drill is above Luffy G2+CoA who destroyed a Black Knight and is Doflamingo lvl, and Doflamingo defeated in seconds a character lvl like Zoro. >See? This is the problem that will pop up if we scale Chinjao to Luffy.'The most you'd get is adding "higher" to the profiles. Even Elizabello's true AP is unknown and we can'tscale him to characters 20x stronger than his strongest feat.

No, Sai > Zoro doesnt exist. In any case, Sai's drill > Zoro' strongest attack. Zoro is above in any other aspects.

Is unknown for you, like I said, Zoro's statment is that he wouldnt cut Pica from that distance so we can assume that he can push him considering the high end. And Elizabello pushed him. So if both can push Golem Pica, both can do the same damage if they attack Golem Pica from a small distance from him.

>Your point about giving the durability only on their drills makes no sense. We don't give X Durability to Y part of the body. The feedback goes through the whole body and if Chinjao's head were the only part of his body that has the Durability to tank the Kiryu Kirikugi his body would explode because the KE can't be absorbed just like that. Same with Sai.

It makes no sense for you because again you are using real life logic.

>There's no hint that Chinjao's current drill is as strong as when he was in his prime. Let alone his Mukiryu Mukirikugi, which is a severely weakened state of the technique (which again, has no impressive feats atm). Your argument relies on the fact that Chinjao was as strong as his prime self, which is untrue.

Chinjao literally said that Sai now has the power to open the ice continent...

I said nothing about current Chinjao = Prime Chinjao. Prime Chinjao > Current Chinjao in all aspects, except the drill because Chinjao after his fight with Luffy is thankful to him because now he can open the ice continent again.

 

[Ronnijuro]

@Damage3245

That's CP0, not CP9.

I was just going off of this info:

> 2. All CP9 members, excluding Spandam and Nero (who has already been kicked out 2 years ago), are confirmed to have CoA (Busoshoku Haki) and CoO (Kenbunshoku Haki).

who has already been kicked out 2 years ago

They are talking about the present. Now is when those members are stronger than 2 years ago and trained Haki. To enter CP0 one need to have both Hakis.

https://thelibraryofohara.com/2019/03/09/vivre-card-databook-vol-7-all-the-new-information/

 

[CinCameron20]

@Ronni - what Damage is looking at is Vol 10: Enies Lobby Pack. It's Pre TS, but I'd prefer waiting on proper translations before making edits @Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay Cin, that's reasonable.

 

[Ronnijuro]

It doesnt matter where is he looking, it is said quite clearly and even I understood it and I'm not English.

" who has already been kicked out 2 years ago "

They are talking about the present.

There is this too for example:

" Suleiman is now aboard Cavendish's ship so he listens to Cavendish's boasts every day. They actually get along pretty well. "

" Wanze, the chef/fighter from CP7 whose ass was kicked upside down by Sanji on the sea train, is only 28 years old this year. "

Relation of Cavendish and Suleiman, NOW.

Wanze's age, NOW.

The info about CP9 is like this: Ex-CP9 members now have CoA and CoO except Nero and Spandam who are not with them since 2 years ago. And in the vivre card it says that to enter CP0 is a requirement to have both Haki.

 

[Damage3245]

@Ronnijuro; what's your point? The Haki would need to added to their profiles regardless of it being Pre-Timeskip or Post-Timeskip.

 

[Ronnijuro]

My point is prets they didnt have Haki, that's what you said previously. I've only corrected you.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Ronnijuro

Before addressing your post I'll drop the suggestion because it looks like nobody noticed it.

@Damage and @Cin

What do you think about upgrading Elizabello to At least 7-B, likely higher based on Ronnijuro's argument about how KP being weaker than it should be if fired at point-blank? It should work in a similar fashion as the air slashes Zoro uses.

Also, upgrading his Durability to whatever the KP's rating is. The energy is coming directly from him swinging his fist after all. The only ones who would scale are Elizabello and Bartolomeo only with barriers.

>CP9 having Haki

This is controvertial, but Lucci has two Vivre Card. This one is for his Pre-TS self and it doesn't make much sense, but the Databook doesn't state the level of mastery.

 

[Damage3245]

At least 7-B should be fine for Elizabello's fully charged King Punch. I'm not entirely sure about the durability to be honest. Logically speaking his arm ought to be able to withstand the amount of force he unleashes yet he seems to quite weak himself without the King Punch.

His only 'durability' feat is getting one-shot by Bart's barrier. Again, this isn't really a problem exactly, but the implication from how easily he was taken out is that he can't take as much damage as he can deal out.

Look at it this way; his legendary King Punch is said to be able to knock even a Yonkou back / unconscious if he lands a clean hit. But do you think they're claiming that Elizabello is as durable as a Yonkou? (I know that obviously the Yonkou scale well above the King Punch anyway).

 

[The_Calaca]

That should mean that's his maximum output and instead of getting harmed he drains his stamina. It makes sense considering he spends an hour to throw a punch at full force with everything he's got.

We don't know the AP of the barriers. Saying that it's an anti-feat is flawed since it could totally be a barrier's feat instead for one-shoting him.

Of course not, but we're not using that statement because there's no credibility for it.

 

[Damage3245]

Right - I'm not fully disagree with you here. By the standards of the site, we should scale his durability to his striking strength / AP in this circumstance, but it is one of those things in fiction that I don't think every character is treated as being as durable as what they can dish out (especially when they have a charged super-move like the King Punch).

 

[The_Calaca]

This is the case of an attack that it's so strong that the user can only use it once. His Durability scales, but it doesn't make great things to his stamina.

What do the other people think?

@Ronnijuro

Like you say we don't know if Barto > Elizabello (which it's the case for the above mentioned reasons), we don't know if Sai > Zoro. The KP might be stronger than the DS, but we have no idea and it could be 7-A to 6-C and that's an assumption we won't make.

There's one thing you're not considering. The KP didn't destroy the boulders but push them. You believe that Elizabello'd have made the same effect if the golem's boulders weren't mid-air while I think the opposite. Pushing something that has no support is way easier than pushing something that has support (in this case, the statue was supporting itself on the ground).

>Big Enough = Strong Enough

For the last time. It is NOT. Barto says that because even if he could tank that attack with his barrier (which, mind you, he can't with his current feats), the barriers ain't big enough to stop the full area of the attack.

>Oda doesn't care about calcs

I know, but we do. Author intent is heavily involved, but these arguments don't hold up your point even if you use Author Intent as a supportive point.

>Elizabello's Durability

I already explained why this is the case. If you don't buy it, please bring a more detailed argument as why this shouldn't be the case. I won't repeat myself and bring another bible to this thread (and I suggest you the same).

>0 and Low 7-C

The rating doesn't matter. It's just to portray a X difference. A no-feat vs a feat will always give priority to the feat, no matter the scaling. You don't care about calcs? That's perfect. This site isn't suited for you then.

>Sai vs Zoro

"Sai > Zoro doesn't exist."

"Sai's Drill (A.K.A. strongest attack) > Zoro's strongest attack"

Well, that's a contradiction.

This is the AP discussion. The other aspects don't matter here.

>Elizabello'd do the same

Actually not. Elizabello's feat is more impressive, and it could end up being way above 7-A if were done at point-blank range. We have no numbers no estimate how strong would a KP be at that distance, so we can't update him based on that.

>I make no sense because IRL logic

Okay, sure. Next.

>Chinjao said

Opening the ice continent isn't an impressive feat at the moment.

Chinjao explained that in order to open the Ice Continent you need to put a great force into one single point. He never stated how much energy, just that you need to focus the strength into that single point. Pointy-head Chinjao could do that no matter what. Same applies to Sai.

 

[CinCameron20]

Opening the Ice continent, from what we've SEEN is no more than Town level. It isn't updating anyone, ever :3.

Elizabello's Durability should probably scale since the AP is coming directly from his physical punch (but if databooks or info later in the manga suggest it to be energy-based, we'll have to put it to current dura). I could re-calc it based on current scalings. It'd literally take 1 second since i already have the mass moved and the current Plateau dimensions in the recent calcs I re-did.

• Mass = 7.9187269e+12kg, Distance moved = >1907.22979679m so the PE = 35.3747 Megatons of Tnt (Still City level, just an update), but yeah it should be "At least 7-B" since the punch traveled some kilometers before coming into contact with anything, so the energy had dispersed greatly at this point.

 

[KobsterHope07]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PlumCrayfish376/Dressrosa_Feats_Recalcs - So, it is the exact same result from this.

 

[CinCameron20]

it's .003 Megatons lower >

 

[KobsterHope07]

So, regarding the scaling, Jinbe would be "High 7-A (Harm Pre-Dressrosa Luffy), possibly 6-C (Is regarded as a valuable subordinate to Big Mom and should be comparable to the other commanders)

Hody could be - "High 8-C (Stronger than Arlong) | Low 7-B (Should be stronger than the Weak Trio) | Possibly High 7-A (Pierced Luffy's shoulder and nearly caused him to bleed out) | 10-C

Trafalgar Law: "At least 7-A+ (Dealt serious damage to Vergo), possibly High 7-A (Fended off attacks from Black Knight who could harm Luffy)

Since Basil clash evenly with Law, he should be 'At least 7-A+, possibly High 7-A". And Wano Zoro would scales to this for nearly killing him. Since Page One is a headliners, he should be at least comparable to Basil, so he scales and since Sanji w/ Raid Suit manages to hold his own against him, he should scales as well.

 

[Damage3245]

Can anyone remind me how we deal with slashing attacks and scaling? Because I'm pretty sure we said ages ago that characters in One Piece are unusually weak to bladed weapons with the exception of freaks like Kaido and Big Mom.