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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8

Fujitora was absolutely not wanting to go all out, however. He did not utilize Armament Haki, for one. For two, he was showing sympathy toward Luffy as evidenced by his discussion of how Luffy's future is hell for upsetting the Yonko, and that if Issho himself were to kill Luffy, at least it would be somewhat more merciful (implied in the line wherein he discusses the things he saw with his own eyes that made him bind himself and then stating 'at least I can send you to hell').

Also, while I don't think Fujitora was fully 'offguard', he definitely was taken by surprise, although likely in a similar manner as with his questioning Luffy calling out his every attack.

So it's hard to state that a Haki-clad Gear 3 punch menaingfully scales to Fujitora; hell, in the recent Wano arc a random impaled Zoro center-mass when Zoro wasn't actively trying to defend, and he low-diffed the guy in one move while nearly passing out from it. If someone is not actively resisting a blow or utilizing Haki, they get injured.
 
He wasn't going all out because the island wouldn't resist much more damage, considering the state of the city after the fight. But still he showed a pretty strong feat to prevent the pirates from escaping, even if he wasn't going all-out.

These arguments relies on more assumptions and Fujitora is visibly strained from fighting Luffy for a while, even after getting punched by him.

Zoro vs Kamazou is another topic and doesn't matter to this discussion. Piercing and cutting damage affects you unless you use Haki or you are Kaido/Big Mom. Kamazou is scaling to Zoro for matching him for quite some time (but the later was forced to use Nittoryu instead so it's a little disadvantage that prolonged the fight). On top of that, he got stabbed because the thief attacked him from behind, giving Kamazou the chance to stab him.
 
While we don't see Fujitora utilizing Haki, that's irrelevant considering how that merely takes what would be his current AP and merely bolster it further.

We can see that Luffy and Fujitora both have been marked by the other's attacks (Both of Fujitora's cheeks, and Luffy's forehead and left cheek). Not to mention, in that very same link, we see that both Fujitora and Luffy are going ham, and both characters are being pressured to the point where they are huffing and puffing.

  • While Fujitora wasn't (shown on panel) using Haki, his attacks, at best, were only leaving bruises or less on Luffy's body, so that argument is completely irrelevant due to the fact that we don't see Luffy actually hurt by the end of the fight despite pressuring Fujitora and taking several of his attacks.
Not to mention Luffy was literally giving Fujitora a handicap the entire time, due to admiration and knowing that Fujitora can not physically see. And he wasn't using his Gear 4th, so I ask all of you, who exactly was the one holding back in that fight?

And for the 4th or 5th time now, Fujitora attempted to block Luffy's Elephant Gun but got sent flying and laid out inside of a wall and still suffering some damage. Yes, a bruise to the cheek, but only after having his guard broken and also sent flying. And Luffy clashes EVENLY with Fujitora more than once while he utilizes his Gear 3rd, and was still applying serious pressure with Gear 2nd.

I seriously do not understand why it is impossible for Gear 3rd Luffy to scale to Fujitora with the preceding info.

But TL;DR

1) Luffy evidently took several hits from Fujitora due to the amount of bruises he had, meaning Fujitora could not reliably hurt him--Haki or Not (He still has a sword, guys... Gomu aint resisting that anyways).

2) They went at it for an extended period, and both of them were showing signs of fatigue in the middle of the engagement

3) Luffy gave Fujitora a handicap, straight-up stated.

4) Gear 3rd Luffy consistently clashing evenly with Fujitora - The purple energy behind Fujitora's sword indicates he is using his powers, so yes guys, he's actually attacking.

5) Luffy hurt Fujitora, more than once.

6) Fujitora makes it clear that there's no room for bias in a fight before using Ferocious Tiger, and immediately being shown sweating profusely and panting after the attack, which shows he put forth more effort into attacking Luffy than a casual... CASUAL feat that didn't even make him flinch, and Luffy was not shown hurt after this, and was running around like nothing happened.

Gear 3rd Luffy scales. I don't see how anything else makes sense.
 
I'll be able to respond to most of your points there ^ But it will take me a couple hours to get to a computer, apologies for the delay.
 
1 + 2) Fujitroa's physical strikes aren't necessarily on the same level of him using his DF power to lift up the rubble. And as you're pointed out Fujitora was being held back by having to lift up the rubble from Dressrosa while he was fighting - so him having an extended fight against Gear 2/3 Luffy while being handicapped shows that they aren't equals.

3) The handicap Luffy gave himself was just telling Fujitora what moves that he was using against him, right?

4) Though Fujitora is using his powers to an extent there, that doesn't automatically make every clash High 7-A. Fujitora clearly uses different levels of strength in his attacks seeing as just clashing against Luffy could be blocked but his Ferocious Tiger sends Luffy flying and causes huge destruction to the environment.

6) A simple explanation for why Luffy would be shown not be hurt at all is his Blunt Force Resistance. Luffy has regularly shown he can tank attacks a lot more powerful than him just by his innate Devil Fruit ability.
 
1/2) Yes, but he was capable of taking blows from people ranging between Zoro and (a casual) Doflamingo. Also, he was including his DF power with his strikes, as I noted. I merely brought up that Fujitora having the rubble in the air could have limited him, but the fact remains that--without doing anything else--it's clearly a simple task for him, and I seriously doubt it would lower his durability or his ability to attack. If anything, it would strain his stamina more than this.

3) Yes. Don't undersell this. Explaining how you are going to attack is a serious handicap.

4) This argument is not reliable. The argument could be made for every single instance in any fight, simply because characters have feats ranging from wall level to city level. It's a similar case in Dragon Ball Z and Super where universal level powers use an ultimate attack and only destroy a mountain or a city block. That's just one of many examples. Fujitora simply displayed a casual High 7-A feat, hence why he'd be High 7-A in AP, and unlike other cases in-verse or a lot of cases in the wiki, he has other feats that can support this that are comfortably 7-A.

6) Fujitora is a known Haki user, and even if he was not using Haki, Luffy tanking attacks from him and only suffering minor bruises indicates his durability would not be far off from Fujitora's AP. It's not like Luffy is suddenly immune to all blunt force, only resistant (Rob Lucci was capable of hurting him many times despite relying mostly on punches, jabs and kicks)--not to mention Fujitora has his sword, which Luffy can not defend against properly without Haki as it is his weakness, yet he still got through the fight with little more than small bruises. His Haki infused arm came into contact with Fujitora's blade twice on-panel in their encounter as well.

  • Yes, I'm aware Haki doesn't scale Durability due to it bolstering defenses via my own words, but I am merely pointing out that Luffy did not simply come into contact with simple blunt attacks.
 
1/2) Both Zoro's blows and a casual Doflamingo's blows currently are 7-A+. So arguing on that point would require upgrading either of them first. I agree that lifting the rubble in the air wouldn't lower his durability but it would most likely hamper his ability to attack.

3) I agree it is a handicap, but it doesn't actually seem that relevant. Maybe I'm missing the point slightly?

4) The AOE Fallacy isn't quite what I'm referring to. It's more like how Goku can use a Kamehameha to blow a hole through Zamazu's chest, but when he punches him in the face he only causes a bruise. Clearly there is a pretty big different in the AP of the two attacks, so if Goku punched another character you wouldn't necessarily scale them to his Kamehameha. Fujitora has displayed a High 7-A feat; but it wasn't through an attack, and none of his other attacks are shown to be on that level.

6) Right, Luffy isn't completely immune to blunt force but he is highly resistant. He was able to clash against Fujitora physically, but that doesn't mean his durability fully scales to his most powerful gravity attacks. The gravity attack is not a cutting or piercing form of attack; it is most comparable to a blunt force.

  • Look at it like this; Pre-Timeskip Gear 3 Luffy was able to take a direct hit from Buddha-Mode Sengoku, but we wouldn't scale Pre-Timeskip Luffy's durability to Island level.
 
Xulrev said:
hell, in the recent Wano arc a random impaled Zoro center-mass when Zoro wasn't actively trying to defend, and he low-diffed the guy in one move while nearly passing out from it.
Click to expand...
This assumption changes after the new chapter.
 
It actually doesn't much at all, considering the person in question was in an altered mental state and Zoro was still offguard
 
VioIeLFC said:
Is G4 being a 3x multiplier from a fan/unofficial translation? If so, it seems like nonsense to me.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the quote uses the word several which indicates more than 2 less than 10. But its at least 3. More so the spike in power between his second and third gear and 4th gear is insane so it would make sense.
 
@Damage -

1/2) Doflamingo's casual attacks have one-shot the likes of Sanji, Smoker, and nearly Kyros. All of them scale very high up in 7-A, and Fujitora blocked his kick like it was nothing. I'm merely stating it is a supporting feat of durability. Fujitora was still hurt by Gear 3rd Luffy's attacks, and you agree his durability would not be lowered.

3) The point that was being argued is that "Fujitora was holding back", but in reality Luffy is the one holding back if he's handing his opponent free reign to know what his attacks are without Fujitora actually having to try and figure that out himself.

4) No, Fujitora lifting the rubble was a preparation for an attack, and again, he has displayed supporting 7-A feats (Ferocious Tiger [which, again, should have a higher value, and it came into contact with Luffy first before traveling a great distance and hitting the side of the island] and keeping the rubble suspended each took his own energy into account), and that using Ferocious Tiger very clearly taxed him more than using his ability to lift the rubble, so I don't see how using more effort will result in lower attack power.

6) I am merely stating that Fujitora does not just have blunt attacks, and Luffy's fist and feet came into contact with his blade more than once. Blunt force can still hurt Luffy, like when Doflamingo kicked him twice during chapter 783 with no sign of using Haki, and had Luffy either coughing blood or having been seriously bruised on the cheek.

  • A lot of the characters during the war should likely not be discussed, as a weakened Luffy held his own and defeated Vice Admirals, which would scale significantly above where he was at the time, not to mention he took hits from Aokiji and Kizaru and wasn't damaged significantly (except when Kizaru blasted straight through him with a beam--the only exception). Then we have the whole Crocodile mess, where he got rekt by High 7-C and 7-A characters, then 2 chapters later was fighting 6-Cs.
 
@Viole - Official translations, and the Japanese literally state "...his attack power has increased several times over...", and several literally means 3 or more.
 
Also, there's no indication or statement from Fujitora or anyone that would imply that he has been weakened by lifting the rubble. I merely stated it as a possibility but that isn't confirmed by the source, and even if he were, it wouldn't be by much if he's composing himself that well immediately after the feat.
 
Xulrev said:
It actually doesn't much at all, considering the person in question was in an altered mental state and Zoro was still offguard
Click to expand...
I mean, Killer was going at it with Zoro for some time, quite evenly before they were interrupted--regardless of his mental state.
 
@Cin; I appreciate there is a lot to respond to, but I don't think posting four times in a row is good.

Regarding No. 6, since that appears to be the main sticking point; I don't think there is any indication that Fujitora's clashes against Luffy scale up to High 7-A. Even if we assume that his Ferocious Tiger is, it is clearly a level well above his regular clashes with Luffy which were being evenly matched by Gear 3.
 
And again, he clearly put forth A LOT more effort into Ferocious Tiger than anything he did prior--including his High 7-A feat, as I keep stating. Luffy still got hit by it point-blank and sent flying, and was perfectly fine afterwards. We didn't see a single injury on him, and he was running around afterwards like nothing ever happened.
 
> Luffy still got hit by it point-blank and sent flying, and was perfectly fine afterwards.

Right - but why would this be down to his durability as opposed to Luffy just being resistant to the impact? There's no indication yet that Fujitora can imbue his Haki into his gravity.

Luffy was squashed flat by Moria's attack that was strong enough to smash Thriller Bark in two; but he stood back up fine because of his rubber body.
 
Yes, but it has already been shown that Fujitora and Doflamingo both have the capacity to harm Luffy's rubber body--even with blunt attacks. And the attack looked more "explosive" than "blunt" in any case given that when we see Luffy mid-air, he's got smoke and steam blowing off of his torso, where he was hit, yet he was perfectly fine.

In the case for Moriah, wasn't Luffy at least "hurt" by the assault? I'll check later, but just asking.
 
Luffy had scratches on his body and was breathing heavily but otherwise he didn't appear harmed.

Enji Todoroki has a different durability rating when it comes to him taking fire attacks as opposed to conventional attacks. Maybe something similar for Luffy would be useful.
 
@Damage - But Fujitora's Ferocious Tiger appeared to have explosive properties as the result from how smoke rolled off of his body, not just blunt.

Also, Moriah is scaling from Luffy's own AP and Durability--not the reverse, just to clarify. And as you said, it does appear that the attack had an effect, even if it were less than it would have been if he took the attack without elasticity.

If we need to change Luffy's durability, fine. I propose "At least Mountain level+ normally (via powerscaling), Large Mountain level in regards to blunt force (Tanked Fujitora's attacks with no sign of injury or fatigue, and coming out of their fight with no more than small bruises)"

A similar edit needs to be applied to Luffy in WCI, as he could never take a hit from Katakuri's spear (the only time he did resulted in his torso being torn up)

But his AP with Gear 3rd definitely needs to scale to High 7-A. He clashed evenly with Fujitora and hurt him more than once, and managed to keep up a high intensity fight for quite some time, so I do not see how he'd be far inferior to him, or how Fujitora would strain with attacks that result in lower energy than what he has been seen doing on a casual level.

@Xulrev - It still appears the attack caused Luffy to bleed and roughed him up quite a bit. All Luffy did was resist getting crushed flat since he is elastic
 
The calc group have evaluated the calculation, so it seems fine to apply to Fujitora's page, and change him to High 7-A. Input first.

@Damage - Again, you had no problem with applying the previously accepted 7-A+ to his AP and Durability both, but suddenly, you have changed your mind, and I want to know why. There's no reason if he was equally trading blows with Gear 3rd Luffy, and neither of them were capable of seriously hurting the other with what they displayed.
 
Fujitora didnt use Haki in his Ferocious Tiger, is pretty obvious, otherwise Luffy would have been oneshoted.

And Fujitora was panting because of his mental state, Luffy enraged him for going light against him, even he has some pride. Not because he used too much power or he was tired or anything like that. Pay attention when you read pls.

And since when Doffy's words > Admiral's words? Doffy was overconfident all the time, so what if he said or implied that he can kill Fujitora? That was already debunked in the same arc when Sabo destroyed a guy with Cracker's power at least in 10 minutes with his powerup and he didnt even put a scratch on Fujitora even with the Admiral going easy on him because he only wanted to stall time and have an excuse for not going against Doflamingo because Navy couldn't be a hero in Dressrosa.

And all this I already proved with all scans of Dressrosa related to it here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2615738

Fujitora is Admiral lvl and should be the same as the other three.
 
For reference @Cin:

This is Luffy's condition the entire chapter before Moria even goes Shadows Asgard. He is struggling to even get up to keep going as a result of Nightmare Luffy and the accumulated damage of all the fighting on Thriller Bark already. It's a pretty huge indication that Haki-infused blows are significantly more impacting on Luffy than ordinary, high-powered blows, similar to what Damage is intuiting, as seen by the already-extant bruises and damage indicators all over his body and the lack of any significant new ones appearing post-Moria punch and stomp.
 
The issue is that Fujitora's attacks generally seem to be in the more 7-A territory than High 7-A and him simply using his DF ability isn't proof by itself that his clashes with Luffy are 1.9 Gigatons.

Here we have Fujitora pinning Law to the ground with his gravity. But there's no reason to assume he is using 1.9 Gigatons of force to pin him.

What about when Fujitora sends Zoro crashing through the ground? Or when he crushes those thugs of Doflamingo in the beginning of the arc?

Even Doffy clashing with Fujitora physically (no DF ability involved) is more suggestible for 7-A than High 7-A from what I can tell.

Why would we use his lifting feat (the most impressive feat Fujtitora has ever done aside from dropping meteors down) and apply the value of that to every minor attack Fujitora has unleashed?
 
Ofc those are all casual attacks. What attack of his is 1.9 gigatons here? The serious Ferocious Tiger?

If it is the serious FT, no one from DR has scalling from that, maybe Sabo.because that attack doesnt have Haki imbued on it.
 
Ronnijuro said:
Ofc those are all casual attacks. What attack of his is 1.9 gigatons here? The serious Ferocious Tiger?
If it is the serious FT, no one from DR has scalling from that, maybe Sabo.because that attack doesnt have Haki imbued on it.
Click to expand...
Fujitora lifting and moving the rubble on Dressrosa was recently re-calced by Cin to be 1.9 Gigatons (using an assumed 10 seconds timeframe for all of the rubble to gather on one part of the island).
 
That is more a lifting strength feat, calcing that as a potential energy feat is quite weird and unnecesary (for fun yeah).

This feat will be useful if Fujitora had gathered all that mass of rubble and throwed against one target and that target tanked it (durability) or faced it with his own attack (ap).

And we can't relate destruction with lifting with this power and guess that the energy/effort required by Fujitora to destroy it is the same effort required by him to lift the same thing. I mean, let's put an example: Fujitora needs to concentrate at full to be able to lift a mountain, but the same mountain he can lift it casually with his power.

Edit: against Zoro he used an attack of gravity (destruction/ap), against Law he used gravity as a heavy thing/boulder above Law to restrain him (lifting). And no, here we can't say that he used the same "amount" of gravity/power as when he lifted all that rubble, there is no proof (effects on the place where they were for example) nor did Law has any feat of physical strength comparable to assume that Fujitora used at least the same amount or higher to restrain him.
 
@ Xulrev - If you compare the image you and Cin have, you notice when Moriah is stomping Luffy to the grounds and you see bruises on Luffy's hands that wasn't there before so I won't say Luffy was entirely unaffected but he surely didn't feel much from it.

@Ronnijuro - There is this thing called Kinetic energy, yeah. He's exerting energy to lift the rubble.

EDIT: We usually scale to the highest feats, we did it in the past and nobody complain, what's the problem now.
 
Yeah and Oda doesnt care about that. Calcs are not something definitive and above manga itself, they are for reference, to give one a general idea. It doesnt matter if the Small Continent lvl Shirohige on narutoforums calc is correct, it doesnt exist a solid proof to Continent lvl characters on One Piece.

Fujitora's meteor is Country lvl easily with kinetic energy and even more, more because those rocks have an exaggerated speed. So even if the calc proves a Country lvl and it's a good calc, we dont have anything Country lvl in the manga to support that feat.
 
@PlumCrayfish; scaling to the highest feats is fine for the profiles, but when you're powerscaling characters to each other then context is important.

Say for example Zoro's most impressive feat of cutting straight through the Pica statue so hard he sent the top half flying into the air; we wouldn't say that every single sword strike that Zoro uses against other characters is automatically that powerful.
 
@Ronnijuro

>Fujitora didnt use Haki in his Ferocious Tiger, is pretty obvious, otherwise Luffy would have been oneshoted.

Based on what exactly?

>And Fujitora was panting because of his mental state, Luffy enraged him for going light against him, even he has some pride. Not because he used too much power or he was tired or anything like that. Pay attention when you read pls.

That's an interpretation. Fujitora uses Raging Tiger and he starts wheezing. His mental state wasn't that pages before when he was scolding Luffy.

>That is more a lifting strength feat, calcing that as a potential energy feat is quite weird and unnecesary (for fun yeah).

Lifting also requires energy and you can get both Energy and Lifting Strength for this feat. The LS doesn't scale to anyone without feats because this is a DF power, but energy is a different thing when it comes to scaling.

>Fujitora needs to concentrate at full to be able to lift a mountain, but the same mountain he can lift it casually with his power.

I'm sorry but I don't get this point. You mean Issho lifting a mountain by himself? I'm pretty sure his physical stats aren't as big as his stats when using the Zushi Zushi, but this is a similar case to Pica's.

@Damage

>The issue is that Fujitora's attacks generally seem to be in the more 7-A territory than High 7-A and him simply using his DF ability isn't proof by itself that his clashes with Luffy are 1.9 Gigatons.

Both showed some minor wounds after the clash. If that were not the case then Luffy wouldn't scale, but his G3 was shown able to produce some minor damage to Issho.

>Issho vs Law and Zoro

Both of them are Mountain level with no other feats to scale them higher (sans powerups). Issho doesn't need 1.9GT of power to pin down people below that when by scaling they don't reach even half of that power. Plus, none of them showed any indications of scaling to Issho.

>Oda doesn't care about calcs

That has nothing to do with the point. That and NF's ratings.

>Even Doffy clashing with Fujitora physically (no DF ability involved) is more suggestible for 7-A than High 7-A from what I can tell.

Because?

>Why would we use his lifting feat (the most impressive feat Fujtitora has ever done aside from dropping meteors down) and apply the value of that to every minor attack Fujitora has unleashed?

You said it above. We go with the highest feat unless it's an outlier. In this case, he has scaling above 838MT and his own feat at 1.9GT. I don't see any outlier to deny this feat legitness.

>Say for example Zoro's most impressive feat of cutting straight through the Pica statue so hard he sent the top half flying into the air; we wouldn't say that every single sword strike that Zoro uses against other characters is automatically that powerful.

While this is true, the context usually gives more of a hint to believe that the scaling is legit. We're not scaling characters to people who stomps them or go casual at them. Fujitora used a named attack to stop Luffy and the latter was able to give him some minor injuries with his attacks.

Does that mean Luffy scales to 1.9GT in G3? Likely not that high, but there's more support for this when you know the vast difference between Gear 2nd and 3rd after watching the difference they have in Enies Lobby, when the techniques weren't as powerful as they currently are. That and the fact that G2 > 838MT supports the notion of G3 being above 1GT at the very least.
 
@Calaca; where does Gear 2 > 838 Megatons actually come from? I've never been able to pin down exactly what statement or feat that is sourced from.
 
Never quite been happy with that scaling chain as you could probably guess.

  • Vergo >=< Pica
This part is essentially an assumption based on them having the same rank in the crew. Vergo's own power isn't necessarily 838 Megatons at all.

  • Law > Vergo
While it is true that Law did beat Vergo (with spatial hax and possibly superior Haki), the attacks he dealt Vergo prior to this weren't demonstrating clear superiority either.

  • Gear 2nd > Black Knight >=< Law
Luffy destroyed the Black Knight, but as brought up a long time ago the Black Knight has had inconsistent durability feats anyway.

So personally I don't think saying Gear 2 Luffy > 838 Megatons is a solid supporting evidence for High 7-A Gear 3 Luffy, because the reasoning for it in the first place isn't extremely solid.
 
Law's scaling comes from taking a beat from Vergo despite being heartless, not the spatial hax thing.

You should wait for Cin. He knows that part of the scaling better than I do.
 
Okay, fair enough though I think taking a beat from Vergo would be his durability scaling?

On his profile it says that he did some damage to him by his Counter Shock attack.

So we're basically assuming Pica has durability comparable to the kinetic energy of rebuilding his Stone Golem, and that Vergo has the exact same durability as Pica, and assuming that since Law harmed him that Law's attacks are greater than 838 Megatons and since the Black Knight pressured Law for a couple of pages that its durability is also greater than 838 Meatons.

I'll wait though, just to make sure that all of that is correct or if I am misinterpreting it.
 
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