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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8

@Calaca Vs

-Based on Luffy's lack of blood loss from any inch of his body, he was no affected at all. He didnt even complain about any pain or any other thing that show us he was injured somehow.

-He is clearly affected because of Luffy's actions 1- And is pretty clear even more when you have his fight against Sabo and he didnt even sweat a bead.

-That didnt mean on fiction we need to go and use all real logic and physics because authors will show discrepancies with other feats.

-No, in my example he uses his fruit in both scenarios.
 
Damage3245 said:
Here we have Fujitora pinning Law to the ground with his gravity. But there's no reason to assume he is using 1.9 Gigatons of force to pin him.

What about when Fujitora sends Zoro crashing through the ground? Or when he crushes those thugs of Doflamingo in the beginning of the arc?
Click to expand...
What happened to the whole no "AoE Fallacy"? If you desperately want to argue that, then everyone in the arc with the exception of Pica and Fujitora would be 7-C to Low 7-B.

Also, Fuji vs Law was entirely off panel, and all we see is that Law was easily beaten by both him and Doffy. Fuji vs Zoro ended before it could even get going, and it's obvious Zoro was hurt, and there's no indication Fujitora was trying since, again, he showed no strain when crushing him.
 
> If you desperately want to argue that, then everyone in the arc with the exception of Pica and Fujitora would be 7-C to Low 7-B.

Zoro has a 7-A feat, doesn't he?

And Sabo's Fire Fist is 7-B+.

> What happened to the whole no "AoE Fallacy"?

It's more of a point that there is no reason to assume every usage of his power is 1.9 Gigatons, just because of that lifting rubble feat.

Clearly his attacks can vary in strength.
 
Technically Luffy's strike had to break through the Spider Web, the Sixteen God Thread strings, and Doflamingo's body before the impact reached the ground. So that would explain at least why the feat would be less impressive than the result of that calc.
 
@Damage - On this wiki, we scale the characters to their strongest showings, or to characters they have either defeated, harmed, took hits from, etc... The only exception would be an outlier, or environment reliant attacks (the latter being in Fujitora's meteorite case, where it wasn't necessary for him to take all of his energy to result in that AP, and he needs meteorites that size to be within range or else he can't display that level of AP on his own)

So Fujitora would be High 7-A from his own feat since it took his own energy, and that scales to his attack power. That doesn't mean every single attack is going to lay waste to the battle-field.

A lot of Shounen in general have characters displaying colossal feats on occasion, or tanking such level of attacks, but in combat take damage from attacks that have only been seen breaking walls or buildings, or what have you.

Like when Luffy used Elephant Gun on Fujitora, he got crushed into a wall that would likely come out at 9-A+ or baseline 8-C, but that's the same case for every fight in the series, and in the genre in general.
 
@Cin; I mentioned up above that I am fine with scaling characters to their strongest showings for the purposes of the profile.

That's not the same thing as taking that value from the profile and applying it to every attack they do. I agree with you that not every attack is going to show huge AOE effects either.
 
I stated that Fujitora, with his feat, would have High 7-A AP straight up. And he has supporting 7-A feats preventing it from being an outlier, and also considering other characters scale to way higher values, it's far from being abnormal for him.

He gets High 7-A AP, and if someone can tank his attacks several times and fight in a prolonged engagement (Luffy is the only example. Zoro got thwacked on-panel, so he doesn't scale - just to clarify), then they would scale to him.
 
A character having a single High 7-A feat (that isn't even used in an offensive attack) doesn't make all of their attacks equal to the one feat, even if we could assume they're in the same tier.

Also, the powerscaling involved for Sanji & Vergo is something that I want to discuss if you don't mind (Calaca said you'd be the best person to discuss it with).

Unfortunately I won't be able to post anymore tonight so I'll have to revisit this tomorrow.
 
Fujitora's feat was used for preparing an attack... And it required his own energy. It definitely scales to his AP.

For the whole Vergo thing, he scales to Pica simply because he's referred to as Doflamingo's right-hand man, and he held the same title as the other top executives. But he simply scales to Pica's Base, which scales from taking hits from Zoro and actually holding his own against him for an extended period before using his Golem. Hence why he is "Likely 7-A+" due to being equal or superior to Pica's physical combative prowess.

Sanji was capable of hurting Vergo, and could block his attacks, though the latter resulted in his leg cracking, but outside of this, he was holding his own quite well. Also, Sanji himself should not be much weaker than Zoro--in fact they are rivals, but I honestly don't know if that applies as much post time-skip, and Vergo took his attacks.

Law scales above Vergo (and Smoker), as he withstood hits from Vergo's haki infused punches (while also having his heart squeezed on occasion), and his Counter Shock completely burned Vergo, and had him coughing up a lot of blood--despite the attack not outright killing him--hence why Law was shocked, "It didn't work?!", and when it came down to it, Law casually matched Smoker (who is comparable to Vergo from their fight) in physical ability, and wasn't even trying to kill Smoker due to what we learned as the arc continues.
 
CinCameron20 said:
Sanji was capable of hurting Vergo, and could block his attacks, though the latter resulted in his leg cracking, but outside of this, he was holding his own quite well.
Click to expand...
Reminder that Sanji was physically much weaker than normal, as pointed out by himself, because he took on Caesar's gas explosions.
 
Question for clarification @Damage. Is your issue with luffy scaling to high 7-A or with Fujitora scaling to High 7-A and if its the latter isnt he still going to scale on his profile thanks to the feat?
 
@Full - He didn't seem weakened really (at least by the time he fought Vergo), and besides, his Diable Jambe is significantly stronger than his normal kicks. Also, Vergo cracking his leg indicates he's by default strong enough to harm Sanji with his normal attacks anyways.

Even if Sanji were "weakened", Vergo was clearly holding back with his offensive abilities, as we don't see him using his Haki or Bamboo stick. Both are likely equal in physical ability at the end of the day as Sanji was capable of hurting Vergo quite visibly and Vergo damaged Sanji's leg, and Sanji acknowledged his power immediately after.
 
RexofLM said:
Question for clarification @Damage. Is your issue with luffy scaling to high 7-A or with Fujitora scaling to High 7-A and if its the latter isnt he still going to scale on his profile thanks to the feat?
Click to expand...
My issue is scaling Luffy to 1.9 Gigatons based on the feat done by Fujitora which isn't related to their fight.

@Cin; scaling based on rank / title seems like a bad idea unless it is clearly based on strength. The core four members of Doflamingo's crew aren't executives just because they're equally strong, but because they were the first four members that followed Doffy when he was still a child. Vergo being his 'right-hand man' doesn't mean anything in terms of strength or combat ability.

So we don't actually have any indication that Vergo is equal or superior to Pica. It is just as likely that he could be much weaker than Pica.

Even if we grant that Vergo (and Trebol/Diamante) are likely in the same tier as Pica, that could still make hundreds of megatons weaker (while still making him superior to all of the regular officers of the Doflamingo crew).

So I don't think we can say with certainty that they directly scale to 838 Megatons.

> Also, Sanji himself should not be much weaker than Zoro--in fact they are rivals, but I honestly don't know if that applies as much post time-skip, and Vergo took his attacks.

Zoro seems to have been far more impressive than Sanji Post-Timeskip in all honesty. I don't think their rivalry really applies as a serious reason to consider their combat prowess comparable.
 
In that case may I propose for both Damage and Cin that we settle on keeping gear third at 7-A+ for the time being. I believe Damage makes a solid argument about attacks not being equal and while its okay to scale to the highest for profiles to powerscale that way could be problematic. Moreso it wont make much difference once @Cin figures out how to calc birdcage if doffy scales. G4 and doffy still end up being 6-C.
 
Js250476 said:
So Calaca recommended I bring this here I think Monet should have a higher rating via her snow wall technique Kamakura since it can take several blows from Gear Second Luffy with haki https://imgur.com/qIp9Hdw

This only applies to the durability of these shields of course.
Click to expand...
I don't see why not.

So Monet's durability should be "Small City level+ via powerscaling, though Logia dispersion makes her harder to damage or kill, Mountain level+ with barriers (Can supplement her defenses with barriers which could withstand attacks from the likes of Gear 2nd Luffy)"
 
Vergo is clearly above Pica. Luffy beat the King and Law his right hand. Law was the second main character in this saga, in all aspects and so on he beat the most powerful characters after Doffy.

And Vergo's feats (winning against Smoker "so quick", even he had his Haki weakened because of his mental state) is above Pica's, because Smoker is at least Zoro/Sanji lvl from DR. And dealing so much damage to Law is a good feat too (even if he had his heart), Law after all resisted against a casual Fujitora and after that against DD. For reference, a Zoro character lvl (Sanji), was defeated in seconds against Doffy (he fought him in his grounds yeah, but in a ground fight there wouldnt be too much difference anyway).
 
Ronnijuro, Law being a main character doesn't mean his opponents are the most powerful.

None of Vergo's feats are above Pica's feats. I'll go into more detail soon.
 
That's in your opinion. Is like saying that Pica's above Jack because Jack doesnt have even a Town lvl feat. We know that is not like that, because Jack' status is above Pica's, and he have Vergo' status too which is above Pica's. The right-hand status.is pretty heavy.

And like I said, he defeated Smoker quite "quick", much better feat than Pica's.

The thing about Law is quite clearly, Zoro fought against a "random" (Monet) and Law, a guy with equal tier as Luffy as a Supernova Captain, defeated Doffy's right hand. There is no other any interpretation here.
 
@Ronnijuro 'right-hand man' is an empty statement. If anything it has to do with authority and trust, not power levels.

If you can prove that him being Doffy's 'right hand man' means he is more powerful than the others, then I'd accept it. Do you even have a link to him being called Doffy's right hand man?

Smoker was intentionally providing a distraction to Vergo which is why he wasn't fighting efficiently.
 
You trust someone who is powerful and can do the missions you give him. And Vergo is not even someone with special skills, he is a dude with brute raw strength, there is nothing special about him. So ofc he is a fighter. And lol, you are ignoring completely the manga because is convenient for yo, how can you say is an empty statement? For what did they mention this point then?

And the feats are there, I already said about them. The fight DD vs Sanji and DD vs a weakened Law is a definitive proof.

I know that (the Smoker thing, I mentioned previously), but anyway he won against him.
 
Smoker got one-shoted in a similar fashion than Sanji, being unable to fight back, but Doffy accomplished Sanji saying that he's strong. Such statement is borderline meaningless since Sanji got rekt anyway.

Pica did nothing to Zoro while Vergo was able to almost break Sanji's leg without Haki, and Law dealt some serious strike to Vergo with Counter Shock. Smoker was buying time, but he was fighting seriously for the whole context around them. It's just that he was enlarging his body, making of him an easier target. But in no way he was holding back.
 
@Ronnijuro; do you have a link to Vergo being called Doffy's right hand man? I can't find it currently.

> DD vs Sanji

Sanji currently gets his scaling from Vergo in the first place.

> DD vs a weakened Law

It is already accepted here that Law doesn't really scale to Doffy. He lost horribly to him in their first engagement even when he wasn't weakened.
 
Smoker didnt get oneshoted and he never fight with him with the purpose of winning, and he has his Haki weakened by the way, like Luffy against Bellamy who could harm him despite protecting himself with CoA when later Doffy needed like 10-12 hits in the same place with Awakening+CoA to pierce Luffy.

" The act of not doubting'. That is strength! " --> Rayleigh about Haki, Luffy had his Haki weakened because he didnt want to fight against his friend, the hesitation and lack of resolution weakened him, he wasnt in this state basically. The same happened with Smoker, he was in debt with Law for saving him from the cell and like he said he was ashamed to be seen by his subordinates because the thing about owing a pirate.


The statement of Doffy about Sanji and the one about Vergo being the right-hand of Doffy has no relation at all, they are completely different things.

The thing about Sanji is meaningless here, it is explained already why that happened and at this point everyone should know about it, I mean the attack of Caesar happened like 7 years ago IRL...
 
@Ronnijuro; do you have the scan for Vergo being called Doffy's right hand man?

The one you've linked doesn't say 'right hand man'. In the official release it says that Doffy is losing his most vital paw.

Which is likely due to the fact that Doffy is about to lose his spy who has infiltrated the Marines for 15 years.
 
I searched but didnt found the scan with "right hand" like that. Maybe those translations are not avalaible or I dont know (I mean, I read that chapter like 7 years ago).

There is no difference between what is said on my scan, your scan and right hand in this case. Because if we compare the usefulness, Sugar is a more vital pawn because of her power.

Anyway, for me the thing about their lvls is clear because of Law which is the 2 main character and because of his feats which I already mentioned.
 
Law didn't even know that Sugar existed.

Again, being a 'main character' isn't a power level. It implies nothing.
 
Then you didnt pay attention to the story -.-

Main character in any arc = fight against the boss/villain/antagonist/king of the island of that arc.

Vicecaptain or 2┬║ of the band = fight against the Vicecaptain or 2┬║ of that boss/villain/etc.

And so on, this is a pattern.

The point is that here author created an alliance between two Supernova Captains, so here this pattern now is different because the other Captain is above the Vicecaptain and the third one in power and so, he was the one to defeat the Vicecaptain of this villain.
 
@Ronnijuro; we don't scale profiles based on narrative.

The only main antagonists of the arc were: Caeser, Vergo and Monet.

Are you saying that Vergo is weaker than Caeser, since Caeser was the main antagonist?
 
@Damage

Well, this is a thing. Vergo is a executive member of the Doflamingo Pirates, he should be comparable to the others. We don't have any proof that say that the Pica, Trebol, Diamante and Vergo are just executives because they form the group together or otherwise that I know of. Rosinate wasn't a core member of the crew yet he was given the position as Corazon. At the very least Vergo is at Vice Admiral level

I believe there is a reason why Vergo and the others are listed as "Likely 7-A+" as in hypothetically due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. I don't understand what you are even proposing

> My issue is scaling Luffy to 1.9 Gigatons based on the feat done by Fujitora which isn't related to their fight.

I'm confused and lost, so if an attack that is used for scaling isn't use in the fight against a character, they shouldn't scale? Maybe I'm misunderstanding but does this mean the Colleseum Fighters besides Chinjao and Elizabello shouldn't be at Small City level+ since the Lite Punch and Chinjao's headbutt isn't related to their fights? That we should put them as Unknow?
 
@PlumCrayfish; the only reason why we put Vergo, Trebol and Diamante at Likely 7-A+ is because Pica has an impressive 7-A+ feat via his stone manipulation ability. If we had two of the group having 7-A+ feats, or even three of the group having 7-A+ feats then it would no longer be a stretch to scale the last ones to that too. Right now we only have one of them having a significant feat.

Power-scaling off of rank does seem to be the last resort when we don't have viable power-scaling or feats, but I think we should consider if there are alternative solutions.

For example, Kyros and Diamante managed to fight each other. Instead of scaling Kyros from Diamante, we could look into scaling Diamante off of Kyros (and seeing what other feats the two of them have).

Instead of scaling Sanji from Vergo, we could look into scaling Vergo from Sanji, etc.

As for the Colleseum fighters, I'm not up to do on their powerscaling; but I think it Don Sai directly scales to Chinjao for deforming his head, and Bartholomeo scales to Elizabello for knocking him out (and resisting the King Punch at full power using his barrier). Not sure about the rest yet.
 
....And potentially, what would happen if their feats managed to land low in, let's hypotheically say,Tier 8? Would you propose that they be in the Tier 8 then?
 
(Not sure if you mean the Executives or the Colleseum fighters), but either way, no, I'm not trying to insist that we purely feats-only for every single character. I'm just suggesting that scaling them all indirectly to Pica isn't the only option available.
 
Damage3245 said:
(Not sure if you mean the Executives or the Colleseum fighters), but either way, no, I'm not trying to insist that we purely feats-only for every single character. I'm just suggesting that scaling them all indirectly to Pica isn't the only option available.
Click to expand...
I mean the Executives. If by other alternative, you mean calculating the feats perform by the Executives, then go for it. I can't really stop you from calculating feats from the other characters. Imo, it would only matter if they yield meaningful results.

EDIT: I still believe Luffy should be either straight High 7-A or possibly, we usually scales characters if they can draw blood or cause a bruise. Reason being why Cracker is around near G4 Luffy's level or Wano Luffy at Sanji's level.
 
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