- 14,574
- 5,874
We have no specific way, but if two characters clashes (I.e. Zoro vs Kyoshiro) then the scaling is most likely legit.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
-
- Tags
- one piece
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #324
Just that characters in One Piece have done slashing damage to each other regardless of tier differences.
Also, that would likely be supporting evidence but I think some of Big Mom's attacks may need further analysis. There is one instance in the WCI arc where her punch was matched by Luffy and Sanju.
Also, that would likely be supporting evidence but I think some of Big Mom's attacks may need further analysis. There is one instance in the WCI arc where her punch was matched by Luffy and Sanju.
- 14,574
- 5,874
Luffy and Sanji vs Big Mom is likely an outlier. She used Haki to parry G4 without effort seconds before.
- 5,107
- 1,786
Even if Queen gets up, you all have to remember that Zoan Devil Fruit users are--by nature--resilient and tenacious. It will be no surprise if Queen stands back up, but if he doesn't--well the gap between the Yonko and the Commanders is quite clear here, considering Kaido one-shot Bound-Man Luffy and now Big Mom has (likely) one-shot Queen.
- 5,107
- 1,786
@Fix - If he tanked the hit, like little to no damage, that's arguable for either a BM downgrade, or Commander upgrade. But Zoan users, even if they've already been battered, recover very quickly and will get back up despite having bones shattered or being KO'd.
- 5,107
- 1,786
I'm curious on the Yonko standings, because it wouldn't make sense for them to be at constant war for 2 decades if Kaido's Commanders are far superior to the Sweet 4 (now 3, maybe 2 if Cracker is out) and if BM is far weaker than Kaido.
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #335
We don't enough about the Yonkou's history and what the interactions of their Commanders are.
- 1,461
- 764
While true, there is also this to consider: Big Mom plays the politics game via marrying off her children, so it's not just her and her Commanders that make up her Crew's power, it's her vast connections and numerous powerful children.CinCameron20 said:
For Kaido, on the other hand, it's more 'Every man for himself'-style competition of strength and the ones who match the rules of Survival of the Fittest rise to the top of the Command Chain; Kaido's style of brutal leadership breeds lack of consistency except for at the top, Big Mom's style of making her children only as important as their usefulness in being married off distances them and makes them in-fight heavily.
Tl;dr yeah I can agree somewhat, but also Big Mom has hella connections while Kaido is an island pretty much.
- 5,107
- 1,786
I understand that Big Mom has (arguably) larger forces due to her connections with other families and regions, and her many children (each being a considerable power house on their own--I mean, Perospero is a 700 million bounty man and is quite powerful on his own), but if someone like Jack, or Queen were immensely more powerful than someone like Katakuri and comparable to Big Mom, it would make little sense for Kaido to be worried about Big Mom coming to Wano with just one commander and starting a war.
Big Mom does have Hax, but if Kaido doesn't fear death (which he doesn't), he'd have no issues with her power, so it'd make no sense for Big Mom to take the offensive if she's like <10% as powerful as Kaido, and the commanders could each pose a threat to her.
Big Mom does have Hax, but if Kaido doesn't fear death (which he doesn't), he'd have no issues with her power, so it'd make no sense for Big Mom to take the offensive if she's like <10% as powerful as Kaido, and the commanders could each pose a threat to her.
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #338
I presume that Kaido isn't just worried about the threat that she and her crew poses, but that they'd be fighting in his own territory / home base and he wants Wano to be isolated.
- 5,107
- 1,786
Of course not, but they simply have to take out a Yonko and their crew's fire-power is reduced to nothing in contrast to another Yonko crew. Strategy and holdings are important, but underestimating the actual power behind them is simply not right. If Big Mom could not defeat Kaido or his Commanders, then Kaido simply has to respond with his own fire-power--if Big Mom is that inferior to him, her forces would crumble almost immediately
If your power is not comparable to your opponent, then taking a direct engagement will simply result in you crumbling. Big Mom is stupid if she honestly tried to engage Kaido + 3 of his commanders with just herself, a single commander, and a smaller attack force with only 4 notable fighters if she is no where near his power level--especially on his home turf. What's worse is that she basically left her home defenseless if another Yonko takes the opportunity to attack.
Honestly, if Big Mom didn't one-shot Queen (or at least severely hurt him with that slam), and Blackbeard/Shanks happens to take WCI during her absence, she's a fool and her days are numbered.
If your power is not comparable to your opponent, then taking a direct engagement will simply result in you crumbling. Big Mom is stupid if she honestly tried to engage Kaido + 3 of his commanders with just herself, a single commander, and a smaller attack force with only 4 notable fighters if she is no where near his power level--especially on his home turf. What's worse is that she basically left her home defenseless if another Yonko takes the opportunity to attack.
Honestly, if Big Mom didn't one-shot Queen (or at least severely hurt him with that slam), and Blackbeard/Shanks happens to take WCI during her absence, she's a fool and her days are numbered.
- 5,107
- 1,786
But that's off topic, and we still have things to discuss.
Back to the Dressrosa topic: it is a common trope in shounen for weaker characters to withstand hits from significantly stronger characters, or even hurt them (though the latter in this case has only been done through Haki, which we know is an AP booster and kryptonite to DF eaters).
So, for the cases of the likes of Chinjao, Gladius and Bellamy against Luffy, I do not agree with scaling them to him in any sense for the following:
1) Chinjao's fight was strictly off-panel, and Luffy was fighting rather casually up until his Hawk Rifle, which nearly KO'd Chinjao on the spot (despite him defending w/ Haki), and he was promptly one-shot by the fight's conclusion. No upgrade for him. Luffy was no more than scratched by the end, anyways. Scratching someone's skin is definitely not going to make you anywhere near their Durability/AP stat. At most, have Chinjao "At least Low 7-B, likely far higher" due to being far superior to Ideo and exceeding Cavendish in their clash.
3) Bellamy used Haki in every strike on Luffy, and Luffy was incredibly docile in their "fight". While logically "being submissive" doesn't lower durability, this commonly happens in this manga and other shounen, so it should not apply to Bellamy for hurting Luffy, especially when the likes of Dellinger can stomp him.
Back to the Dressrosa topic: it is a common trope in shounen for weaker characters to withstand hits from significantly stronger characters, or even hurt them (though the latter in this case has only been done through Haki, which we know is an AP booster and kryptonite to DF eaters).
So, for the cases of the likes of Chinjao, Gladius and Bellamy against Luffy, I do not agree with scaling them to him in any sense for the following:
1) Chinjao's fight was strictly off-panel, and Luffy was fighting rather casually up until his Hawk Rifle, which nearly KO'd Chinjao on the spot (despite him defending w/ Haki), and he was promptly one-shot by the fight's conclusion. No upgrade for him. Luffy was no more than scratched by the end, anyways. Scratching someone's skin is definitely not going to make you anywhere near their Durability/AP stat. At most, have Chinjao "At least Low 7-B, likely far higher" due to being far superior to Ideo and exceeding Cavendish in their clash.
- If this is denied, and Chinjao scaled to Luffy, honestly the only other people who is affected is probably Cavendish, Lao G in his buffed up state and Sai when he awakened his kick.
3) Bellamy used Haki in every strike on Luffy, and Luffy was incredibly docile in their "fight". While logically "being submissive" doesn't lower durability, this commonly happens in this manga and other shounen, so it should not apply to Bellamy for hurting Luffy, especially when the likes of Dellinger can stomp him.
- 5,107
- 1,786
Also, considering (in Wano arc) X-Drake is currently dominating Sanji in their fight, tanking hits and hurting Sanji, it would seem he also deserves an "At least 7-A+" rating now.
- 14,574
- 5,874
@Cin most people know about this, but I have Queen's profile prepared in one of my sandboxes and I'll make an update with the new information soon.
>About Queen "scaling" to Big Mom
Unless he wakes Up in the instant, he shouldn't. Zoan users are especially tough to put down and if his fruit is Awakened then he's going to be like the Impel Down guards (Minotaurus), who was beaten and a couple of minutes were enough to heal his wounds.
>About Queen "scaling" to Big Mom
Unless he wakes Up in the instant, he shouldn't. Zoan users are especially tough to put down and if his fruit is Awakened then he's going to be like the Impel Down guards (Minotaurus), who was beaten and a couple of minutes were enough to heal his wounds.
- 5,107
- 1,786
Currently, in regards for Dressrosa, here's where I think everyone should currently be:
Likely Low 7-B+: Characters such as Orlumbus that we do not see engaging in combat as much, but have taken hits from the Donquixote Executives. Hajrudin and Machvise fall here simply because they scale from the others, and we don't really see them engaging with anyone else. Giolla would also fall here.
Low 7-B+: Elizabello's normal AP, and this scales to every major Coliseum Fighter such as Blue Gilly, Ideo, Sai (pre awakening), and some of the Donquixote Executives like Baby 5, and by extension, Buffalo.
At least Low 7-B+, likely higher: Characters that have been seen dominating the characters above, such as Dellinger, Gladius, Bartolomeo, Cavendish, and those around this level.
At least Low 7-B+, likely far higher: Characters who have been seen exceeding the above characters, such as Chinjao, Hakuba, Lao G, and by extension, Sai Post Awakening.
At least 7-B (likely higher): Elizabello's King Punch, Bartolomeo's Barrier AP/Dura
At least Low 7-B+, Possibly/Likely 7-A+ - OR simply "Possibly 7-A+" (This will be case-by-case): These are characters that, through scaling, are far above any of the previously mentioned characters, and should logically be within the same league as the Donquixote Top Executives (Pica, namely): Robin (>>Hakuba, and blocked hits from Diamante and Trebol), Diamante/Trebol (They should be comparable to Pica's physical abilities, and Diamante withstood being within one of Sabo's attacks with little injury), Kyros (defeated Diamante), and anyone else that could fall here like Sanji.
Likely 7-A+: Pica himself
7-A+: Pica's Golems
At least 7-A+: Zoro and anyone scaling to him.
At least 7-A+, Possibly High 7-A: Vergo (Same reasons as Dia/Tre, but that he also has the capacity to injure Law, albeit with Haki. He also cracked Sanji's Leg with a kick and tanked Diable Jambe kicks with minimal damage [despite Diable Jambe previously ignoring durability]), Smoker (Matched Vergo for an extended period)
Likely High 7-A: Law, but probably only in AP (His Dura will simply have a possibly), as he was capable of matching Doflamingo's BK with one armed swings and blocks.
High 7-A: Fujitora for generating this amount of energy to lift the rubble from Dressrosa, Gear 3rd Luffy + Base Luffy Durability for matching Fujitora blow for blow (If you want to argue the lifting feat weakening Fujitora, all that can be argued is that the PE be removed since that's the constant energy needed to hold it mid-air, and the value would still be High 7-A for Fujitora's AP at the time), Doffy's Black Knight (For Hurting Luffy several times--blunt attacks included).
At least High 7-A, Possibly 6-C: Doflamingo scaling >>> Gear 3rd Luffy, but < Gear 4th Luffy (at least in AP. His Dura scales to 6-C for taking hits).
6-C: Gear 4th Luffy (=/>3x Multiplier statement)
Luffy's stats for Base and Gear 2nd will be basically the same.
Likely Low 7-B+: Characters such as Orlumbus that we do not see engaging in combat as much, but have taken hits from the Donquixote Executives. Hajrudin and Machvise fall here simply because they scale from the others, and we don't really see them engaging with anyone else. Giolla would also fall here.
Low 7-B+: Elizabello's normal AP, and this scales to every major Coliseum Fighter such as Blue Gilly, Ideo, Sai (pre awakening), and some of the Donquixote Executives like Baby 5, and by extension, Buffalo.
At least Low 7-B+, likely higher: Characters that have been seen dominating the characters above, such as Dellinger, Gladius, Bartolomeo, Cavendish, and those around this level.
At least Low 7-B+, likely far higher: Characters who have been seen exceeding the above characters, such as Chinjao, Hakuba, Lao G, and by extension, Sai Post Awakening.
At least 7-B (likely higher): Elizabello's King Punch, Bartolomeo's Barrier AP/Dura
At least Low 7-B+, Possibly/Likely 7-A+ - OR simply "Possibly 7-A+" (This will be case-by-case): These are characters that, through scaling, are far above any of the previously mentioned characters, and should logically be within the same league as the Donquixote Top Executives (Pica, namely): Robin (>>Hakuba, and blocked hits from Diamante and Trebol), Diamante/Trebol (They should be comparable to Pica's physical abilities, and Diamante withstood being within one of Sabo's attacks with little injury), Kyros (defeated Diamante), and anyone else that could fall here like Sanji.
Likely 7-A+: Pica himself
7-A+: Pica's Golems
At least 7-A+: Zoro and anyone scaling to him.
At least 7-A+, Possibly High 7-A: Vergo (Same reasons as Dia/Tre, but that he also has the capacity to injure Law, albeit with Haki. He also cracked Sanji's Leg with a kick and tanked Diable Jambe kicks with minimal damage [despite Diable Jambe previously ignoring durability]), Smoker (Matched Vergo for an extended period)
Likely High 7-A: Law, but probably only in AP (His Dura will simply have a possibly), as he was capable of matching Doflamingo's BK with one armed swings and blocks.
High 7-A: Fujitora for generating this amount of energy to lift the rubble from Dressrosa, Gear 3rd Luffy + Base Luffy Durability for matching Fujitora blow for blow (If you want to argue the lifting feat weakening Fujitora, all that can be argued is that the PE be removed since that's the constant energy needed to hold it mid-air, and the value would still be High 7-A for Fujitora's AP at the time), Doffy's Black Knight (For Hurting Luffy several times--blunt attacks included).
At least High 7-A, Possibly 6-C: Doflamingo scaling >>> Gear 3rd Luffy, but < Gear 4th Luffy (at least in AP. His Dura scales to 6-C for taking hits).
6-C: Gear 4th Luffy (=/>3x Multiplier statement)
Luffy's stats for Base and Gear 2nd will be basically the same.
- 5,107
- 1,786
I'm sure there'd be some agreement, but some disagreement with the above.
- 4,842
- 3,680
I agree with mostly everything but still have concerns, basically why Bartolomeo's Barrier AP is City level when the only physical thing is do is one-shot Elizabello II unless Elizabello II's Durability is City level for withstanding the strain of his King Punch
Edit: Fujitora should be "At least High 7-A" because he didn't strain himself when performing the feat and he had clash evenly with a casual Doflamingo
Edit: Fujitora should be "At least High 7-A" because he didn't strain himself when performing the feat and he had clash evenly with a casual Doflamingo
- 14,574
- 5,874
I agree with everything but Elizabello's KP. As Ronnijuro explained before, the distance weakened the KP a lot just like it'd do with Zoro's ranged slashes. At least 7-B, likely (far or not) higher would be better. This would scale to Barto's barriers only.
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #349
I don't disagree with everything you've proposed, but I have a few questions:
> Low 7-B+: Elizabello's normal AP, and this scales to every major Coliseum Fighter such as Blue Gilly, Ideo, Sai (pre awakening), and some of the Donquixote Executives like Baby 5, and by extension, Buffalo.
What are the feats that scale everyone's AP to Elizabello's normal AP?
> Robin (>>Hakuba, and blocked hits from Diamante and Trebol)
Robin could catch and restrain Hakuba but she didn't hurt him, and for Diamante she only redirected his sword strike via a gust of air while the sword was in flag form. That probably shouldn't make her a Possibly 7-A+.
> At least 7-A+, Possibly High 7-A: Vergo (Same reasons as Dia/Tre, but that he also has the capacity to injure Law, albeit with Haki. He also cracked Sanji's Leg with a kick and tanked Diable Jambe kicks with minimal damage
Both Law and Sanji get their durability ratings from Vergo. Why would hurting them make him Possibly High 7-A?
> Gear 3rd Luffy
There still isn't any reason to assume that Fujitora's ordinary strikes are on the same level as feat with the rubble. This isn't just about him being possibly weaker by holding up the rubble, but as his Ferocious Tiger attack shows he could clearly raise the level of his AP massively from his ordinary clashes with Luffy.
> Base Luffy Durability for matching Fujitora blow for blow
Luffy had to block Fujitora's attacks with Gear 3 so his base durability shouldn't scale. When Fujitora used his Ferocious Tiger attack it is likely that Luffy's blunt force resistance saved him instead of his durability scaling that high.
> Doffy's Black Knight (For Hurting Luffy several times--blunt attacks included)
Didn't Doffy's Black Knight only hurt Luffy with a slashing attack that Luffy wasn't prepared to block?
> Doflamingo scaling >>> Gear 3rd Luffy
Can you remind me when Doflamingo's AP was shown to be heavily superior to Gear 3 Luffy? I recall that his strings could block Gear 3 attacks.
> Low 7-B+: Elizabello's normal AP, and this scales to every major Coliseum Fighter such as Blue Gilly, Ideo, Sai (pre awakening), and some of the Donquixote Executives like Baby 5, and by extension, Buffalo.
What are the feats that scale everyone's AP to Elizabello's normal AP?
> Robin (>>Hakuba, and blocked hits from Diamante and Trebol)
Robin could catch and restrain Hakuba but she didn't hurt him, and for Diamante she only redirected his sword strike via a gust of air while the sword was in flag form. That probably shouldn't make her a Possibly 7-A+.
> At least 7-A+, Possibly High 7-A: Vergo (Same reasons as Dia/Tre, but that he also has the capacity to injure Law, albeit with Haki. He also cracked Sanji's Leg with a kick and tanked Diable Jambe kicks with minimal damage
Both Law and Sanji get their durability ratings from Vergo. Why would hurting them make him Possibly High 7-A?
> Gear 3rd Luffy
There still isn't any reason to assume that Fujitora's ordinary strikes are on the same level as feat with the rubble. This isn't just about him being possibly weaker by holding up the rubble, but as his Ferocious Tiger attack shows he could clearly raise the level of his AP massively from his ordinary clashes with Luffy.
> Base Luffy Durability for matching Fujitora blow for blow
Luffy had to block Fujitora's attacks with Gear 3 so his base durability shouldn't scale. When Fujitora used his Ferocious Tiger attack it is likely that Luffy's blunt force resistance saved him instead of his durability scaling that high.
> Doffy's Black Knight (For Hurting Luffy several times--blunt attacks included)
Didn't Doffy's Black Knight only hurt Luffy with a slashing attack that Luffy wasn't prepared to block?
> Doflamingo scaling >>> Gear 3rd Luffy
Can you remind me when Doflamingo's AP was shown to be heavily superior to Gear 3 Luffy? I recall that his strings could block Gear 3 attacks.
- 5,107
- 1,786
1) If Elizabello could have one-shot the Coliseum fighters with his Lite King Punch, he would have had no need to use the King Punch, and while none of the characters tanked the attack, they were all up and about not too long after despite not receiving medical care of any kind, and none of them were gravely injured. It should be justification that they scale to the Lite King Punch based off of this.
3) The descriptions would be changed, because now Law would scale from taking hits from the Black Knight, and Vergo could hurt him (albeit w/ Haki and while Law is restricted), and barely withstood Law's Counter Shock (albeit he was burned and coughed up a lot of blood--but was otherwise fine). Sanji needs to be revisited, since--as you mentioned, he has some questionable scaling when disregarding Vergo.
4) I already discussed this whole Fujitora vs Gear 3rd Luffy mess with you, and the fact remains that Fujitora visibly strained himself in his fight with Luffy while lifting the Rubble was evidently no taxing matter.
5) We see him blocking with Gear 3rd once, and otherwise see him struggling with Gear 2nd for the majority of the fight that we see. I already explained that Fujitora's attack was also explosive--considering we see steam rolling off Luffy's torso after the attack--and don't forget that Luffy's standard use of Haki removes his Elasticity (without Gear 4th), so his arm was not elastic and it was undamaged by the attack.
6) No. The Black Knight stomped Luffy's face and caused him to bleed from his mouth and nose.
7) Doflamingo halting his Elephant gun without his threads even straining should be enough evidence, and he consistently bypassed Luffy's Elastic-enhanced durability with kicks while weakened and without Haki.
- Otherwise, they will all likely be 7-C range scaling from the attack from Franky that Baby 5 and Buffalo tanked on Punk Hazard.
3) The descriptions would be changed, because now Law would scale from taking hits from the Black Knight, and Vergo could hurt him (albeit w/ Haki and while Law is restricted), and barely withstood Law's Counter Shock (albeit he was burned and coughed up a lot of blood--but was otherwise fine). Sanji needs to be revisited, since--as you mentioned, he has some questionable scaling when disregarding Vergo.
4) I already discussed this whole Fujitora vs Gear 3rd Luffy mess with you, and the fact remains that Fujitora visibly strained himself in his fight with Luffy while lifting the Rubble was evidently no taxing matter.
5) We see him blocking with Gear 3rd once, and otherwise see him struggling with Gear 2nd for the majority of the fight that we see. I already explained that Fujitora's attack was also explosive--considering we see steam rolling off Luffy's torso after the attack--and don't forget that Luffy's standard use of Haki removes his Elasticity (without Gear 4th), so his arm was not elastic and it was undamaged by the attack.
6) No. The Black Knight stomped Luffy's face and caused him to bleed from his mouth and nose.
7) Doflamingo halting his Elephant gun without his threads even straining should be enough evidence, and he consistently bypassed Luffy's Elastic-enhanced durability with kicks while weakened and without Haki.
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #351
1) That's too speculative IMO. From what was happening the manga Elizabello wanted to use his trump card King Punch to get rid of every fighter in the ring at once. Fighting with just ordinary punches would leave him open to attack and needing to fight multiple different opponents in a row. While I would agree no contestant was lethally injured, they were all still effectively one-shot by the King Punch. Also not even all of the characters you listed were in Elizabello's round in the tournament.
2) Sure, but simply holding Hakuba/Cavendish isn't a major AP feat. Robin deflected it, yes, but you don't need to fully scale to something to deflect it, right? As for the Trebol feat, I had forgotten that one at first.
3) The scaling for this seems to be like: Fujitora = Base Luffy Durability = Black Knight = Law => Vergo => Sanji. This doesn't seem quite right to me.
4) Simple explanation for that could be that lifting the debris requires no physical effort (only DF power) but fighting Luffy requires him to actually fight and use physical effort.
5) How exactly does gravity generate an explosion? But anyway, Luffy was only seen blocking any of his attacks with Gear 3. He fought against him in Gear 2 for some of the fight, but that doesn't make his base durability scale to High 7-A.
6) Luffy was bleeding prior to being hit by the Black Knight, so that's where that could be from.
7) Isn't that just a durability feat? And basic levels of Armament Haki is invisible, so it is virtually impossible to say that he bypasses Luffy's resistance with just physical strength.
2) Sure, but simply holding Hakuba/Cavendish isn't a major AP feat. Robin deflected it, yes, but you don't need to fully scale to something to deflect it, right? As for the Trebol feat, I had forgotten that one at first.
3) The scaling for this seems to be like: Fujitora = Base Luffy Durability = Black Knight = Law => Vergo => Sanji. This doesn't seem quite right to me.
4) Simple explanation for that could be that lifting the debris requires no physical effort (only DF power) but fighting Luffy requires him to actually fight and use physical effort.
5) How exactly does gravity generate an explosion? But anyway, Luffy was only seen blocking any of his attacks with Gear 3. He fought against him in Gear 2 for some of the fight, but that doesn't make his base durability scale to High 7-A.
6) Luffy was bleeding prior to being hit by the Black Knight, so that's where that could be from.
7) Isn't that just a durability feat? And basic levels of Armament Haki is invisible, so it is virtually impossible to say that he bypasses Luffy's resistance with just physical strength.
- 762
- 438
@Damage - I will disagree with you on Point 6, maybe this is just me, but if compare the two images by Cin and you, you notice the bleeding is much more noticable and pronounced after BK stomp on Luffy and there seem to be a new cut/damage on Luffy's left lower jaw than before.
- 14,574
- 5,874
Base Luffy's Durability scales to his G3's AP. Sans G4 the Gears don't show a Durability amp. G2 is an AP and speed amp while G3 is strictly an AP amp so there's no such thing as "Base Luffy's Durability being below G3's Durability".
- 5,107
- 1,786
Damage3245 said:
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #355
1) If it takes a bit more time to sort out through the individual scaling of the lower tier Dressrosa characters, I think it is still worth doing.
2) I'll concede this one. I'm not too fussed about Robin's rating, I just think it is generous.
3) Vergo being assumed to be at least equal to Pica is a problem. It should be that he is assumed to be at most equal to Pica. As for the Counter Shock, Law has only used that on two other opponents that I remember, and neither would suggest that it is a High 7-A attack. Sanji being comparable to Zoro is something I mentioned a while ago that needs further examination and not just be used as an assumption.
4) Whether Paramecia fruits let you do more than you can by yourself is probably a big topic that needs looking into. It would probably be useful in determining a lot of our ratings.
5) I'm pretty certain that the attack struck Luffy's Gear 3 arm, not Luffy's torso. It might actually just be dust on that panel on not steam (since we don't see it anywhere else).
6) It is still a very minor amount of damage. Bellamy did more damage than that to Luffy on at least two occasions.
7) I was referring to the Spider Web blocking the Gear 3 punch.
2) I'll concede this one. I'm not too fussed about Robin's rating, I just think it is generous.
3) Vergo being assumed to be at least equal to Pica is a problem. It should be that he is assumed to be at most equal to Pica. As for the Counter Shock, Law has only used that on two other opponents that I remember, and neither would suggest that it is a High 7-A attack. Sanji being comparable to Zoro is something I mentioned a while ago that needs further examination and not just be used as an assumption.
4) Whether Paramecia fruits let you do more than you can by yourself is probably a big topic that needs looking into. It would probably be useful in determining a lot of our ratings.
5) I'm pretty certain that the attack struck Luffy's Gear 3 arm, not Luffy's torso. It might actually just be dust on that panel on not steam (since we don't see it anywhere else).
6) It is still a very minor amount of damage. Bellamy did more damage than that to Luffy on at least two occasions.
7) I was referring to the Spider Web blocking the Gear 3 punch.
- 2,426
- 476
I agree with Damage. High 7-A for Vergo (and by extention Law) is too high when nothing links Vergo to being significantly stronger than Pica. I do not think there is even anything which tells us he is cmparable other than rank, which has already been established to do with loyalty to Duffy.
- 30,308
- 25,737
- Thread starter
- #358
My bad. I'll fix the link now.
- 5,107
- 1,786
3) Law's Counter Shock was used to one-shot one of the cool brothers (Whatever their name is), and used another time as an attempt to finish Doflamingo off, and he was genuinely surprised when the attack was ineffective. We can discuss Sanji and Zoro, but I must say that when it comes to direct answers, Oda is a troll especially when it comes to this topic.
4) At best, a Paramecia has only been seen either giving an alternate form of attack, or giving someone high resistance to a form of attack (Diamond resistant to cutting and most physical force, Rubber resistant to blunt and electricity).
5) Even if it hit Luffy's arm alone, nothing (other than the blatant use of Haki) indicates Luffy's durability while using G3 is higher than his Base Durability. That's definitely smoke rolling off of his torso, as well as indicators that generally point to "burns", but we don't ever see him having been damaged by the attack. And besides, in the very next fight he has (against Cracker), we see the Biscuit soldier overpower an Elephant Gun, but then totally fail at piercing Luffy's Base Haki defenses with an Haki attack of its own. That's just one of several examples.
6) Keep in mind Bellamy was using swords for the first injury on Luffy, and also Luffy basically allows Bellamy to beat on him for several minutes w/ Haki before finally KOing him. The Black Knight has never appeared to be capable of using Haki, so it's incredibly likely Luffy had the advantage simply because Haki > DF power, and the Black Knight is walking DF strings, and simply kicks were still capable of hurting Luffy through his resistance to blunt force. And I don't think Bellamy actually "hurt Luffy more" with his attacks. They simply had similar results, as the Black Knight caused Luffy to spit up more blood, and also bleed from his nose, and gave him another bruise on his head.
7) That's a durability feat, sure, but I'm still referring to Doflamingo hurting Luffy without Haki in general. You point out that there could have been "invisible usage" of Haki in those kicks, but what's the point when we're given visual indicators every other time? It's not hard to believe Doflamingo to hurt Luffy with base kicks anyways when he previously one-shot him w/ Haki on two occasions.
4) At best, a Paramecia has only been seen either giving an alternate form of attack, or giving someone high resistance to a form of attack (Diamond resistant to cutting and most physical force, Rubber resistant to blunt and electricity).
5) Even if it hit Luffy's arm alone, nothing (other than the blatant use of Haki) indicates Luffy's durability while using G3 is higher than his Base Durability. That's definitely smoke rolling off of his torso, as well as indicators that generally point to "burns", but we don't ever see him having been damaged by the attack. And besides, in the very next fight he has (against Cracker), we see the Biscuit soldier overpower an Elephant Gun, but then totally fail at piercing Luffy's Base Haki defenses with an Haki attack of its own. That's just one of several examples.
6) Keep in mind Bellamy was using swords for the first injury on Luffy, and also Luffy basically allows Bellamy to beat on him for several minutes w/ Haki before finally KOing him. The Black Knight has never appeared to be capable of using Haki, so it's incredibly likely Luffy had the advantage simply because Haki > DF power, and the Black Knight is walking DF strings, and simply kicks were still capable of hurting Luffy through his resistance to blunt force. And I don't think Bellamy actually "hurt Luffy more" with his attacks. They simply had similar results, as the Black Knight caused Luffy to spit up more blood, and also bleed from his nose, and gave him another bruise on his head.
7) That's a durability feat, sure, but I'm still referring to Doflamingo hurting Luffy without Haki in general. You point out that there could have been "invisible usage" of Haki in those kicks, but what's the point when we're given visual indicators every other time? It's not hard to believe Doflamingo to hurt Luffy with base kicks anyways when he previously one-shot him w/ Haki on two occasions.
- 5,107
- 1,786
Also, everyone who draws these panels (and it goes for literally every manga and comic in general) sometimes forget about the injuries, and they vanish for like 3 chapters, then pop up later (like the red-hawk injury on Doffy. We don't see a scratch on him and then we later see some burn marks on his abdomen just before he fights Law 1v1)
