One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8

[Damage3245]

3) That was also right after he hit Doflamingo with Gamma Knife so it may be that Law was just shocked that Doflamingo was alive at all after all that, not that he specifically thought that the Counter Shock would kill a healthy Doffy. Out of curiousity what do you mean that Oda is a troll?

4) So you think that the alternate forms of attack cannot be more powerful than what their base AP / strength is normally?

5) You may be right. It's possible that the idea of Luffy using his Gear 3 arm as a shield agaisnt Fujitora's attacks prompted the idea that Luffy gained defensive benefits specifically from using Gear 3 like that. But what other indicators are there aside from possible smoke (especially since that smoke is drawn very similarly to the rest of the dust around them)?

6) The Black Knight almost certainly isn't capable of using Haki itself, but as an extension of Doflamingo's abilities is there any reason to think why Doffy couldn't be using Haki through the Black Knight to hurt Luffy?

7) Oda does draw Haki quite a lot when characters are attacking each other - but I'm sure there are also cases when he doesn't, it is just a hard thing to tell sometimes since with invisible Haki there are no visual indicators. Unless they're hitting a character that wouldn't normally be hurt by it. Has Luffy ever been hurt by any other non-Haki blunt force attacks since the timeskip?

 

[The_Calaca]

4) Depends on the ability.

6) It's a possibility, but he apparently can't or doesn't in-character for some reason (like he didn't just cut Luffy's neck like he did to Crocodile in Marineford).

 

[Damage3245]

I think Doffy suffers pretty heavily from PIS during some parts of Dressrosa. He used Parasite frequently beforehand, even to stop the physically powerful Jozu, but against Luffy and Law he only uses Parasite right at the end of the fight and to minimal effect.

So him not using his super-slicing strings on Luffy's neck is also likely PIS.

 

[Dr.Fix]

IIRC almost every instance of paarsite was used by a casual Duffy. The only exception being against Luffy, but then he used many more strings then usual to perform the feat, and still failed. Seems more like a move one uses on weaker adversaries and that is why he didn't bother with it against more powerful opponents.

 

[RexofLM]

IIRC almost every instance of paarsite was used by a casual Duffy. The only exception being against Luffy, but then he used many more strings then usual to perform the feat, and still failed. Seems more like a move one uses on weaker adversaries and that is why he didn't bother with it against more powerful opponents.

Wouldnt that contradict the fact that it was the first thing he did to interact jozu, jozu would classify as "more powerful opponents"

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage -

3) Yes, but Counter Shock was intended to finish Doflamingo off. The times he used the attack was intended to be a finisher against his opponent(s), and it simply didn't kill Vergo as intended, and Doflamingo got right back up due to unexpected recovery. Oda stated once that Zoro and Sanji are equals, but post time-skip, during an SBS, someone asked who would win between them, and Oda simply didn't acknowledge the question and made a joke about the phrasing of it.

4) They could be, but it could simply be a method of suffocation, danmaku, slicing, crushing, defensive, etc. They tend to excel in some areas, but in the case of Fujitora, he simply has the ability to manipulate gravity, and it can be used in many ways--and lifting the rubble still requires a lot of energy--which didn't seem to phase him in any way.

5) The dust/smoke coming from Luffy's torso should already be a clear indicator that he took part or the entire hit to his torso (The other one, that looks blackish tends to indicate burns or even blood, but that wouldn't make sense since we don't see Luffy scorched/hurt by the attack anywhere), and again, regarding blocking w/ his arm, Gear 3rd has never once implied to increase Luffy's Durability, only Haki, and his arm was still unscathed by the attack, and he was in perfect condition the very next moment we see him.

6) Doflamingo likely could put Haki on the BK, but he was busy engaging Law to even do so, and didn't even know the Black Knight was being pressured/defeated until after he saw it destroyed by Luffy's Jet Gatling.

7) I fail to see why you are commenting that Doffy "might" have used Haki when there was no visual indicator, statement, or proof of any sort that he was using it. And the only non-haki fighters Luffy even engaged after the time-skip were all fodder. Hody was the only one that gave him trouble (outside of Caesar Suffocating him), but he did use piercing attacks.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Rex-

I suppose that is a matter of perspective. Compared to Luffy, Issho, and perhaps Law he is a weaker adversary.

 

[RexofLM]

@ Dr. Fix I suppose we could make a presumption but ibfeel like thats a situation where lore takes precedence for a characters line of thinking.as a yonko commander of whitebeard doflamingo should definitely presume a character like jozu is stronger than luffy or law. If he was willing to open with it verses jozu he should of here as well.

 

[CinCameron20]

Dressrosa has contradictions. Doflamingo outright stated he set all of this up to specifically kill Law when they saw eachother on Green-bit, but later states he needed Law to perform the Eternal Life giving ability before he could die and also held off on killing him on two occasions in the entire arc. He also allows Law and Luffy to escape him in 745 for some reason instead of dealing with both on the spot with Pica, Gladius and Baby 5 right there to assist him, then having the rest of the Strawhats and Sabo picked off by the whole "Stars" set up.

Many say "Law not using his DF hax to swap bodies" to be a PIS, but Doflamingo not outright stomping both Law and Luffy is the true PIS. He had the means from the start, but didn't so do. Also, again--Parasito and Thread Manipulation on targets are very different applications Doflamingo uses. Parasito is a sentient thread that forces targets to attack randomly. Thread manip allows Doflamingo to have more direct control over target's actions, but it requires physical effort, hence why some are able to resist its effects to some degree--like Sarquiss hesitating to attack Bellamy, Luffy moving his arm to activate G4, and Rebecca trying to stop herself from attacking Viola.

 

[Damage3245]

> Parasito and Thread Manipulation on targets are very different applications Doflamingo uses

I don't think I agree with this.

Whether he is using the strings directly from his fingers to control them, or sending strings down from the Birdcage, both cases are him using Parasite to control the target.

The strings having their own independent sentience seems a bit random.

 

[The_Calaca]

Does this matter tho? What are we even discussing here?

 

[Damage3245]

The main topic is trying to decide whether some of the proposed scaling makes sense such as:

1) Scaling Luffy's base durability either fully or partially to Fujitora's feat of lifting up the rubble on Dressrosa.

2) Scaling the Black Knight's AP to be superior to Luffy's base durability by making him bleed slightly after it kicked him through the floor.

3) Saying that Law's physical AP is equal to the Black Knight for holding off its attacks with his sword.

4) Scaling Law's Counter Shock to his physical AP so say that Vergo took a potentially High 7-A attack.

Etc.

There are also other points like how equal are Zoro and Sanji after the timeskip. And whether the other Supreme Executive Officers on Doffy's crew deserve to be fully scaled to Pica's 7-A+ feat.

 

[The_Calaca]

Then why are you discussing about Doffy's abilities? That's my question.

I think I haven't gave my opinion or I just forgot.

1) Agreed for the G3's argument. He was clearly able to deal some damage, albeit slight, so that would scale Luffy comparable to the 2GT while being somewhat lower.

2) Wasn't this already accepted as legit?

3) Agreed. He also hold his own against Doffy himself, clashing physically despite being in a serious disadvantage.

4) Disagreed. Vergo was visibly damaged and remained conscious, yes, but I see no indication in Vergo being comparable to Law at full strength. Law wasn't in the best state either, and the gap between the 7-A calc and the High 7-A calc is around 2.5x. If anything, this would justify Vergo being in the 7-A+ level.

 

[Damage3245]

> 1) Agreed for the G3's argument. He was clearly able to deal some damage, albeit slight, so that would scale Luffy comparable to the 2GT while being somewhat lower.

Do you mean Fujitora did some slight damage, or Luffy did some slight damage?

2) That's part of what we're currently discussing.

 

[The_Calaca]

1)Luffy to Fujitora, and likely the other way around as well.

2) That's not what I asked.

 

[Damage3245]

1) From what I can tell Fujitora doesn't have a reason to have High 7-A durability, and Luffy only appeared a bit scuffed up after his fight with Fujitora and not actually hurt.

2) I don't if it was accepted as legit in the past, but we've been discussing it recently.

 

[The_Calaca]

1)You failed to prove it wrong to my eyes. If you hadn't noticed, I hasn't been part of this discussion because I know little about Dressrosa's scaling. It's not me who you should be arguing this with.

2) Pretty sure we did, considering the BK was scaling to the same tier before.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Damage what do you suggest for Issho's dur then if not the lifting calc?

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; I'll write up my proposal for it and post it here when I can.

 

[RexofLM]

Wouldnt Newtons third law mean fuji needs to scale to the feat tho??

 

[Damage3245]

Not necessarily; there would need to be demonstrable recoil that Fujitora is being hit by the same amount of force that is lifting up the rubble.

Many telekinesis-type characters use their abilities to move objects which requires certain amount of energy which has to come from them, but their durability doesn't always scale to what they're doing.

 

[The_Calaca]

For the last time. The Zushi Zushi Fruit isn't Telekinesis. Stop using that debunked argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Calaca, I'm not saying that the Zushi Zushi fruit grants telekinesis. That's a misrepresentation of my argument.

 

[The_Calaca]

You're clearly using the TK as an equivalency for the fruit which is blatant incorrect.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

Since we're basically talking about Gravity Man, I feel like we should add all the KE of his meteors. I have calculated it to be High 6-C (125.59 GT)

So, Fujitora rating should be "At least High 7-A. Up to High 6-C with meteors".

 

[Damage3245]

@PlumCrayfish; wouldn't that be assuming that each one of his meteors hits the opponent at about the same time? Those meteors look a bit spread out.

To put it another way, just because you can punch someone with a dozen Island level punches doesn't make your AP as High 6-C, right?

 

[CinCameron20]

Fujitora and Gear 3rd Luffy should both scale to High 7-A, as I previously argued, so that's where I stand on the matter.

the meteorites remain 6-C for obvious reasons.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm going to get into my reasoning for why I believe Luffy's Gear 3 is more likely to be 7-A, but before I do I want to check:

We say that Luffy's Gear 4 increases his durability, but the only thing Luffy does for his Gear 4 is inflate his body and coat his body in Haki.

When Luffy is using Gear 3, he is also inflating his body and coating his body in Haki.

So doesn't that at least imply that Luffy's durability is also increased when using Gear 3?

 

[CinCameron20]

Gear 4th is very clearly a transformation, and Luffy's application of his DF and Haki change entirely as stated by Doflamingo. Not to mention he goes from being casually wrecked by Katakuri/Doflamingo to tanking their hits.

Gear 3rd has no implication of the sort to imply that it has an increase in durability, and even if it did, Luffy--again--has visual indicators of the attack hitting his torso, where his arm was the only thing transformed into Gear 3rd. You simply imply "it may be random dust" when that'd make no sense, especially with the burn indicators coming off of him, and the smoke coming directly from his body.

Again, only the Haki would attribute to his increased durability, and also the Ferocious Tiger isn't the only thing Luffy blocked or took in his fight with Fujitora, so I fail to see how this matters anyways since: Luffy's arm w/ Haki wasn't even scratched in his clash and later "blocking" the Ferocious Tiger, and the most injuries that he suffered were bruises and small cuts despite both Fujitora and Luffy showing signs of fatigue in the middle of their engagement (clear signs neither of them were holding back, otherwise why would Fujitora be heaving if he's not putting forth his best efforts into his attack?)

Gear 3rd inflates Luffy's bones, making him literally a balloon. The only difference is that he's not squishy/stretchy and that his chosen limb(s) are hard. How exactly is that going to make his skin or muscles higher in durability?

Again, this is a circular argument that I have to constantly repeat. I'm done with this topic.

My opinion is clear. All I require is feedback from the others.

 

[Damage3245]

Cin, I feel like we have very different interpretations of that Ferocious Tiger scene.

Here is Fujtiora preparing the attack and hitting Luffy's arm (which is in Gear 3 mode and he is using it definitely.

Here is Luffy being sent flying by the attack. I don't see any burns on his body itself nor is there any visible explosion or flames from the attack.

And here is the next time we see Luffy clearly, just a couple of pages later. Not even a single burn or scorch mark on him.

You don't have to repeat yourself, but I don't see why your allegations should be taken as the only correct version of the events. Saying that Fujitora's gravity attack had explosive properties to bypass the blunt force resistance argument is a weak argument.

> Not to mention he goes from being casually wrecked by Katakuri/Doflamingo to tanking their hits.

Luffy took exactly one hit from Doflamingo in his Gear 4 form, and that was explained by him retaining his elastic properties, not his body becoming several times tougher than before.

 

[Damage3245]

Regarding the Black Knight scaling specifically, I don't think drawing a tiny amount of blood is a significant feat.

Viola was able to kick Sanji in the face and draw blood from him, and as mentioned earlier Bellamy hit Luffy repeatedly and made him cough up blood.

Now, in this circumstances Sanji and Luffy weren't willing to fight back against their opponent but does that automatically lower their durability heavily? It seems counter-intuitive to assume that Luffy's durability is significantly lower when fighting Bellamy but rises to normal levels when fighting the Black Knight.

Does anyone else have some thoughts on this?

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

I do not think a "gravity explosion" would bypass Luffy's elasticity anymore than standard attacks used against him. Regarding Gear 3 durability, the laws dictate it has to equal his AP unless there is significant evidence he is more of a glass canon. I don not see that level of evidence.

I'm still waiting on a dur rating for Issho. :S

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; I do believe we can get Fujitora's durability rating the AP of a standard Elephant Gun from Luffy.

My disagreement with Cin is scaling Luffy's Elephant Gun to High 7-A.

I'm going to perform an analysis of Luffy's Post-Timeskip Gear 3 feats and see if I can build a comprehensive examination instead of looking at a single feat.

 

[Dr.Fix]

So Mountain Lv+ Issho? Seems decent to me.

We could always compromise and say at Least 7-A, possibly high 7-A for Issho, Luffy, Duffy, and everyone else who scales from fighting. Should probably wait for Damage's breakdown of many feats for better reliability.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Wasn't Luffy just finished with his deadly offpanel fight with Black Knight, he was already worn out from his battle and was huffing and puffing. Also, BK could harm Base and G2 Luffy without any indication of AH and make him bleed, and this is being compared to Bellamy who had to use AH to harm worn-out Luffy, who wasn't even trying to put up a defense and defend himself and the moment he gotten serious he one-punch Bellamy with ease.

Also for Sanji and Viola, PIS is the word you're looking for.

 

[The_Calaca]

Sigh. This won't end ever.

The difference between G4 and Luffy's Base Durability is still clear. He gets lots of injuries when fighting against Katakuri and Doflamingo and when he uses G4 whether the version he can fight back with more ease.

Doflamingo connected a single kick on-panel, but you're ignoring the multiple hits he landed when using Awakening, and it was previously explained, Awakening doesn't amp the AP.

Damage, in the second panel you linked we can see Luffy when Hajruding catches him and he has a bruise on the cheek he hasn't before.

>Drawing a tiny amount of blood

I find this funny. I don't know if "draw" has yet another meaning in english, but I read it like drawing blood is Oda's feat XD.

It is a feat when your opponent is rubber and you're not using Haki. If the BK could use it, we don't know. It should be able, but Doflamingo has shown the capability to make Luffy bleed with regular kicks without Haki.

And you're using Viola vs Sanji to justify your point. Viola vs Sanji. A guy who would prefer getting killed before laying a hand on a woman. This is a false equivalency that could be explained via PIS or CIS.

(I also remember Viola wearing sharpy high heels which could easily pierce Sanji's skin.)

Bellamy was using Haki against Luffy. This was explained before. Seriously, everytime you bring an old topic that has been discussed to hell and back to explain one of your arguments my blood boils. We have been here for many more months than we should be, don't waste more time bringing these topics again.

Bellamy + Haki vs Luffy = Luffy will get some injuries.

Looking for G3 feats will give anything but a flawed paragraph of why he shouldn't be High 7-A because his current best scalable feat is High 7-C and because the only time he used was against Doflamingo with no good results.

 

[Damage3245]

I understand where you're coming from Calaca, sometimes I feel angry when I'm discussing these things on here and I think it is down to us having different interpretations but each wanting the same thing (more accurate ratings for the verse).

Really though it doesn't matter how time is spent on it considering that the series will still last for years and it has been many years since a lot of things we're discussing has happened.

And have you considered that maybe the reason I bring up these 'old topics' is because we disagreed on them in the first place and they never went anywhere?

> I find this funny. I don't know if "draw" has yet another meaning in english, but I read it like drawing blood is Oda's feat XD.

Sorry if I used bad wording, but I do believe 'draw' is right to use there. Like drawing a sword from a sheath, you can also 'draw' blood from a person with a slight injury.

Anyway, you're right that we probably won't get anywhere right now - but I want to take the time to perform a full analysis and if there is more evidence of Luffy scaling to High 7-A then against then I'll concede that point.

I do think that the Bellamy situation is strange even if write it off as him using Haki to bypass Luffy's durability somehow.

 

[The_Calaca]

I know that it doesn't matter how long these revisions are since the series is much longer. Sometimes I joke about One Piece finishing before we end the revisions, but at the same time I really want to settle them asap. It has been almost a year now.

Many of those topics have been discussed with tens of posts arguing their legitness, with the general consensus accepting them. There are also other topics that have been accepted under your arguments, but the usual users who talk here don't dig up on them. Cin's a different case because he was out of the wiki for months and he started wondering about those topics. Point is, I try to not involve in any discussed already topic if the majority concluded in one way or the other. You want to get back to that point? I think you should open a different thread to discuss it, because we're coming back to the same over and over, and at this rate we won't finish this ever.

>Draw

Yeh, I got it, I just laughed at the idea of Oda doing the feat.

>Slight injury

While it's true that it's not a great wound, the fact that the BK was able to actually injure Luffy is a notable feat.

>Bellamy

It's hard to tell. Bellamy was trashed by Dellinger but could slightly harm Luffy. I seriously think that it could be Oda's inconsistency about Bellamy's power.

 

[CinCameron20]

Shounen have consistently been inconsistent with displays of power levels.

But in the case of Luffy vs Fujitora, it's clear neither could gain an advantage over the other, and the best Fujitora ended up doing was sending Luffy flying a great distance without any resulting damage (unless slight, which we don't see moments later, but as Calaca pointed out, there's a possible bruise. Bruises tend to vanish in this manga quite frequently, on top of other injuries. Katakuri's stab wound vanished for several panels in his final match with Luffy, and Doflamingo's wound from Red Hawk vanished from 760 up until he was about to fight Law again, then it simply vanished forever). Even if Luffy could not overpower Fujitora (he actually did with his initial punch) he was still capable of hurting him with Gear 3rd. Don't forget that Luffy was fighting Fujitora with Gear 2nd for the majority of the fight. The only reason I'm not arguing Gear 2nd to scale in AP is because we never once see it matching, let alone harm Fujitora. We see Fuji blocking a kick before counter-attacking, and we're back to Gear 3rd attacks.

• tl;dr: Luffy was not only using Gear 3rd in his fight with Fuji so there's no reason to believe he simply blocked or tanked hits while using Gear 3rd when we see that he was roughed up. I doubt he used Gear 3rd on his forehead, cheek or his shoulders simply to block incoming attacks.

Luffy's fight with the BK was off-panel, but when we see them again, Luffy is quite visibly worn out, and Doflamingo notes this later on (despite being in considerably worse condition). I seriously doubt Luffy would have been hindred by the BK for as long as it took Doflamingo to nearly defeat Law if it wasn't capable of being a serious threat to him (despite its... questionable... durability [blocked a punch from Luffy easily, but then immediately one-shot by the brothers, who were in turn one-shot by Bellamy LOL]).

The real issue is discussing Haki, because it has allowed lower tier characters to inflict some harm to Luffy, and that has led to questions. The simple fact is that Haki is still somewhat vague, but Rayleigh noted it as being the one and only effective way to combat Devil Fruit users in general, so unless a character is tanking a bloodlusted Luffy's hits w/out Haki, or hurts Luffy w/out Haki, their stats should come into question. The only people who have done so in Dressrosa are Doflamingo and Fujitora (except Doflamingo did one-shot Luffy w/ Haki 2 times, but that's irrelevant).

• Also, Gear 4th makes things worse since he's still elastic w/ Haki, so he keeps his attack deflection on top of his boosted durability. Hard to scale anyone who hasn't directly been seen inflicting serious injury (Doflamingo, and to an extent, Cracker since all he's done is one small cut w/out Haki)

 

[VioIeLFC]

It's definitely not strange or inconsistent for Bellamy to hurt Luffy, in terms of the story. Bellamy is far weaker than Luffy yet can still inflict small damage, makes perfect sense from Odas POV. It's only inconsistent for this site because there's "levels" In reality strength is more fluid and levels separating characters in that way don't exist. You can just consider it an outlier on here