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@Ttenrr this isn't the place to discuss that. We have other open threads where we talk about the VCDB.
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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #8
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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- one piece
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Just to clarify an earlier topic regarding Haki and CP9, it seems that the CP0 pack as well as this pack strongly imply the former CP9 members to have developed Haki over the course of the time-skip, so no changes need to be made.
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Good, that's a relief that doesn't belong to this thread.
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I dont even see a VCDB thread anywhere (unless it hasn't been active for some time)
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We have a thread series exclusive for abilities addition and deletion, or just use the general discussion where we usually talk about that stuff.
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- Thread starter
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Just to clarify what I'm up to do that it doesn't look like the thread was abandoned; I'm currently doing some research with Calaca's help that may provide a better foundation for a lot of the scaling of the Post-Timeskip ratings.
There may be some new upgrades and downgrades proposed as a result.
There may be some new upgrades and downgrades proposed as a result.
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I've said this in the general discussion thread but since this is the place we discuss such things, I think it's better if we just put Shirohige's feat discussion on standby. We need to finish what we're currently working at, so don't bring that topic atm until we solve these things first.
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I agree with Calaca on this.
But at the same time if anyone has any new calcs or feats that they think need a calc, be sure to mention it here so that we don't overlook them or forget about them.
But at the same time if anyone has any new calcs or feats that they think need a calc, be sure to mention it here so that we don't overlook them or forget about them.
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Of course, let's not overlook anything.
BTW, I think you should delete Sabo's Hiken from the OP. It's really outdated and with our accepted size the result is 18MT anyway.
BTW, I think you should delete Sabo's Hiken from the OP. It's really outdated and with our accepted size the result is 18MT anyway.
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Well I think the Knockup stream could use a calc as it scales to characters like pre timeskip Teach and Burgess https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3047792
Cin seemed like he was looking into it.
Cin seemed like he was looking into it.
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@Js - the main issue is the potential volume of water. I could easily assume it to be 100% of the volume for the space it occupies, but considering how it shoots up like a geyser, i'd seriously doubt it. Probably would have to do 100% but then ask for input on the matter. It would affect the result a fair amount.
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So, it comes as no surprise, but the Kaido Calamities are definitely FAR below Big Mom (even while she is in this state), so it should not be assumed that the other Yonko are drastically inferior to Kaido 
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Since Queen is basically out (and it's debatable whether or not he will be put in another fight), I think now a profile can be made for him.
Going with current scalings, he'd be High 7-A scaling above Jack, and above Base Luffy, and that he should likely not be inferior to the likes of other Yonko commanders of this caliber such as Vista, Cracker, Katakuri and Marco.
Going with current scalings, he'd be High 7-A scaling above Jack, and above Base Luffy, and that he should likely not be inferior to the likes of other Yonko commanders of this caliber such as Vista, Cracker, Katakuri and Marco.
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I think he should be Likely High 7-A, since he doesn't have a single offensive feat and his only durability feat is being defeated in two hits by Big Mom.
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@Damage - He overpowered Base Luffy's punch with ease, and is noted outright as being above Jack in power-level (The former at this point can casually hurt Sanji, and [w/ Haki] can hurt characters in the High 7-A range like Katakuri, the latter being able to fight Fujitora, Tsuru and possibly Sengoku and returned alive after destroying half of their forces). He doesn't have a "feat", but he's certainly above Base Luffy and Jack.
Likely High 7-A would be fine though. He's still conscious from taking hits from Big Mom, though. Just laying there, probably scared.
Likely High 7-A would be fine though. He's still conscious from taking hits from Big Mom, though. Just laying there, probably scared.
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No one assumed Kaido>other Yonko based on Queen VS BM . . . :SCinCameron20 said:So, it comes as no surprise, but the Kaido Calamities are definitely FAR below Big Mom (even while she is in this state), so it should not be assumed that the other Yonko are drastically inferior to Kaido
Surely you're not suggesting Queen is comparable to Kaido?
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Yes, but we should wait to see what will happen before editing the profile.
I'm going to update Queen's profile soon to get IT done.
I'm going to update Queen's profile soon to get IT done.
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No, Damage made the comment earlier that was basically suggesting that "The other Yonko have no reason to be scaled to Kaido" despite the fact that they've been at war for decades, and it would be unlikely that Kaido has several defeats (and hasn't killed any of the others) if there were such a disparity between them.Dr.Fix said:
We used Big Mom baby-shaking Queen as a reason for "Yup, the Yonko are definitely >> Commanders and Luffy, and there's now nothing to assume that BM is < Kaido atm"
Also, Jack's profile is based off of being comparable at least to Cracker, who is the weakest commander of Big Mom's crew (Even an individual biscuit soldier is >>838MT scaling above Gear 3rd Luffy), and that he also posed a serious threat to Fujitora and Tsuru (who are both strong af in lore. Tsuru being hinted as being more-so)
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@Rex - We do not scale Haki into Attack Potency or Durability due to a value of increase being unknown, and that it is Statistics Amplification, which only applies to stats for specific situations where a value is known.
If Luffy does block an attack from Big Mom, or even harm her in some way, he'd likely have the following for his (base) durability: High 7-A normally (At least as durable as before), Likely 6-C with Goken (With his advanced application of Haki, Luffy has acquired the ability to block attacks from the likes of the Yonko, Big Mom, who casually defeated Queen, and should likely be comparable to Kaido)
If Luffy does block an attack from Big Mom, or even harm her in some way, he'd likely have the following for his (base) durability: High 7-A normally (At least as durable as before), Likely 6-C with Goken (With his advanced application of Haki, Luffy has acquired the ability to block attacks from the likes of the Yonko, Big Mom, who casually defeated Queen, and should likely be comparable to Kaido)
- However, he'd likely only be blocking a more casual attack from Big Mom, seeing as how she hasn't really shown signs of fighting seriously (Unlike Kaido in one instance). So it may not make him 6-C in durability.
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How is BM vs Queen strengthening the idea that Kaido>>>Yonko? This just support the idea of BM being more or less comparable, in fact, albeit weaker of course.
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@Fix You're missing the point, but option 2 is what I'm actually talking about.
First of all, we don't know if Kaido used Haki. He likely didn't, but we have no indication of one case or another.
Second, as it was pointed before, BM is likely not at his peak. She didn't used Haki to two-shot a Zoan user, whose fruit increases all the physical stats. Queen's still conscious tho, but that could be due to the fast healing rate Zoan user have when their fruit is awakened as I explained before.
Third, you need to learn that comparable doesn't mean equal. For all we know Linlin could be 2 or 3 times weaker than Kaido and still able to pose a threat to him.
@Xulrev We have no idea how strong Bracchioqueen actually is when compared to his human self, let alone to G4, so both feats are really impressive by themselves.
Granted, Kaido needed one while Linlin needed two, but the nature in those feats isn't massively different from each other to believe that just because that Linlin's still massively below Kaido. In fact, it supports the idea that all of them are comparable, because if we have Kaido being God Tier alone he'd have rekt'd the rest of the verse with his crew already.
Luffy isn't above #1 YC, he's #1 YC level since the only reason why he won against Katakuri was endurance with Katakuri being far superior in most terms.
First of all, we don't know if Kaido used Haki. He likely didn't, but we have no indication of one case or another.
Second, as it was pointed before, BM is likely not at his peak. She didn't used Haki to two-shot a Zoan user, whose fruit increases all the physical stats. Queen's still conscious tho, but that could be due to the fast healing rate Zoan user have when their fruit is awakened as I explained before.
Third, you need to learn that comparable doesn't mean equal. For all we know Linlin could be 2 or 3 times weaker than Kaido and still able to pose a threat to him.
@Xulrev We have no idea how strong Bracchioqueen actually is when compared to his human self, let alone to G4, so both feats are really impressive by themselves.
Granted, Kaido needed one while Linlin needed two, but the nature in those feats isn't massively different from each other to believe that just because that Linlin's still massively below Kaido. In fact, it supports the idea that all of them are comparable, because if we have Kaido being God Tier alone he'd have rekt'd the rest of the verse with his crew already.
Luffy isn't above #1 YC, he's #1 YC level since the only reason why he won against Katakuri was endurance with Katakuri being far superior in most terms.
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@Cal
He got more powerful during the fight and would, in his current state, simply obliterate Katakuri. He was keeping up with Kata without future-sight haki, and now has it fully mastered. With it semi-mastered, he was fighting on even ground blow by blow, and as stated, has vastly superior endurance. Snakeman even outsped Kata as well, meaning Luffy>>Kata in attack speed and durability while negating his future-sight at current.
He's very well above Kata at this point in time due to the future-sight attainment imho
He got more powerful during the fight and would, in his current state, simply obliterate Katakuri. He was keeping up with Kata without future-sight haki, and now has it fully mastered. With it semi-mastered, he was fighting on even ground blow by blow, and as stated, has vastly superior endurance. Snakeman even outsped Kata as well, meaning Luffy>>Kata in attack speed and durability while negating his future-sight at current.
He's very well above Kata at this point in time due to the future-sight attainment imho
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I never said Big Mom was less than 1/3 of Kaido's power. I wouldn't exactly call 1/3 comparable. Kaido is stronger then Big Mom and the other Yonko but that doesn't mean they're not a threat. In case you've forgotten, I'm the one who keeps pointing out the importance of strategy and how you don't need to be as powerful as another character to mess with them
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@Fix - I do not think it is a matter of Kaido or Big Mom being stronger, just that it's strange for Big Mom to not be in his league. Kaido has been beaten before, but methods are unknown--it's just been made clear that he simply can not be killed (through normal means at least), and "why" has not been explained (Could be his DF, or some unnatural occurrence within his body--who knows).
- If there's anti-feats like Big Mom getting thrashed, I'll retract my opinion on this. The matter is that Kaido has been stated to battle the other Yonko (and Navy) numerous times, and has been beaten/captured several times, so it is incredibly unlikely for him to be a massive leap above the others.
- Also, Big Mom is not in the right state of mind, nor was there any implication of her fighting with her full strength. Queen and Luffy were both in an enraged state, and it led to their instant defeat against both Yonko. I'm sure Luffy could have dodged Kaido's attack if he wasn't so shook over the potential loss of his friends.
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@Xulrev he didn't become vastly stronger. Even during the final clash Katakuri was hurtng Luffy's knuckles a lot, and he took less damage just seeing at the atriles. His Future Sight is at best comparable to Kata's. He didn't outsped him in any meaningful way but became comparable to him.
Luffy's way Tougher and is now comparable to Katakuri, but he's at best equal to him.
@Fix that was a number I used as an example. Instead of focusing in the trivial part of the reffutal try to talk about the other part.
Tactics matter, but the Smartest Yonko to date is Kurohige when IT comes to fighting. All of them are physical fighters, with more brawn than brain.
Luffy's way Tougher and is now comparable to Katakuri, but he's at best equal to him.
@Fix that was a number I used as an example. Instead of focusing in the trivial part of the reffutal try to talk about the other part.
Tactics matter, but the Smartest Yonko to date is Kurohige when IT comes to fighting. All of them are physical fighters, with more brawn than brain.
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@Cal
Luffy is in no way only 'comparable' to Katakuri as of now. Gear 4 severely wounded Katakuri and the future sight equalization means that will land more, as will Snakeman hits, while Luffy will take an absurd amount less punishment in the long haul.
Luffy was 'comparable' to Katakuri before learning to utilize his future sight fully, and managed to heavily wound him without it. I don't see a strong argument for him not simply thrashing Kata as of current form as a result.
Luffy is in no way only 'comparable' to Katakuri as of now. Gear 4 severely wounded Katakuri and the future sight equalization means that will land more, as will Snakeman hits, while Luffy will take an absurd amount less punishment in the long haul.
Luffy was 'comparable' to Katakuri before learning to utilize his future sight fully, and managed to heavily wound him without it. I don't see a strong argument for him not simply thrashing Kata as of current form as a result.
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In terms of physical ability, Bound Man Luffy is above everyone he has currently fought (sole exception being Kaido, cuz duh), but that's one factor. He was below Katakuri in everything else except speed. He only won once he used an even faster form and boosted his Haki further.
- Honestly that fight was PIS. They made it clear from the start that Katakuri was > Base/3rd Gear Luffy in AP with ease, yet had Luffy match him for several hours in base just before Snake-man? INCONSISTENT!!!!
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Luffy was already stronger with G4, granted. But he didn't severely wounded Him. Kata woke up after every single hit with no problems and some wounds.
In a neutral term fight Luffy'd win not only because of that, but his stamina is so far above Katakuri's that there's no competition.
In a neutral term fight Luffy'd win not only because of that, but his stamina is so far above Katakuri's that there's no competition.
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@Cin As I said before the whole equalization between Yonko has been no more than an argument from beleif, sometiems mixed with popularity votes but always at the root is beleif, not facts.
As for facts, you alluded to it yourself. Kaido has been at the mercy of those who want him dead many times. All the top tiers want him dead. They have tried to kill him. They have all failed to kill him. You can keep bringing up the "decades of war" argument which only bolsters Kaido's superiority as in all this time they cannot harm him.
As for the why you brought up, there doesn't have to be a why. Significantly stronger characters don't get hurt by significantly weaker ones. Scaling 101 if you do you scale. If you don't, you don't scale. Kaido is just that much statistically better physically.
As for facts, you alluded to it yourself. Kaido has been at the mercy of those who want him dead many times. All the top tiers want him dead. They have tried to kill him. They have all failed to kill him. You can keep bringing up the "decades of war" argument which only bolsters Kaido's superiority as in all this time they cannot harm him.
As for the why you brought up, there doesn't have to be a why. Significantly stronger characters don't get hurt by significantly weaker ones. Scaling 101 if you do you scale. If you don't, you don't scale. Kaido is just that much statistically better physically.
