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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #7

Characters who use telekinesis to move large masses have to be emitting a certain amount of energy in order to achieve the feat, but often Newton's 3rd Law isn't used to support their durability scaling to their abilities.
 
@Damage - I believe that DF users physical and creative abilities are what make the Devil Fruit useful and powerful. Blackbeard may have used the Gura Gura no mi for the first time and performed impressive feats (He's strong in his own right regardless), but unlike Whitebeard, he lacked control and Burgess noted that if he wasn't careful, he'd take all of his crew including himself out by destroying the ground they stand on. Same case for Sabo. He displayed impressive power with Ace's fruit despite having just acquired it, but he had very little control in using its powers, and still heavily relied on his own physical abilities--like when he fought Burgess.

  • The point I am making is that if a user is strong, the power will be as strong as them. It's just a matter of knowing how to use the power. Pica using his abilities and generating that much energy should imply he is at least comparable. (Not like it matters since Zoro basically low-diffs him whether he fights physically or with his golem)
In the case for Pica, he must be in contact with stone to manipulate it (proven when Zoro cornered him in their final engagement), and I seriously doubt anyone could just create a mountain-sized structure on a whim with no training, and insufficient power in their own right. Therefore, it is more likely that Pica scales comparable to his Golems. He's only really used them to hide from Zoro, to increase his area of impact with large stone fists from hundreds of meters away, and to move around more easily. If anything, he only used the stone golems to take pot shots at Zoro and hoped to get lucky, as he gave up entirely on trying to fight Zoro with his physical body the moment he realized he was outmatched.

  • Chapter 777, he opt'd to lure Zoro to the far side of the Flower Hill, preventing him from going after Riku, and also attacked other enemies instead of fighting Zoro directly.
All in all, I think Pica should be 7-A scaling to his KE feats. Thus Zoro should be "At least 7-A" for basically annihilating him the moment he got serious. Higher with Asura.
 
Cin has explained my point much better.

I'm okay with any of the options for Zoro's scaling, whether he keeps his 7-B or becomes 7-A.
 
Also, CP9 stats do not make sense. Lucci in base should be High 7-C if Blueno and Kalifa are both 7-C+. His physical power is scaled to be nearly 5x Blueno's. Kaku and Jabra should also both be High 7-C in base due to being over double--nearly triple Blueno.

  • They make it explicitly clear that Lucci is exacly 5x stronger than Fukuro via a statement, and Franky being unable to even budge him (Fukuro is barely below Blueno in Doriki).
    • Also DF powers do not factor into the rating, so this doesn't scale his Zoan form to his 4000 Doriki rating--ONLY his base.
 
While I agree that that should be the case, we don't have enough information about the Doriki is a linear power level so without more proof we didn't changed the profiles accordingly to that statement. Especially because it's talking about the Doriki and not explicitly his strength.
 
@Calaca, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was telekinetic. I only meant that it seems comparable to me of other characters using their ability to move huge masses without physically exerting themselves or scaling it to their durability. Pica does have to merge with the stone to control it, but I don't think that he means he has to use his physical power to move the stone.

@Cin; While physical strength may play into it a bit, Pica's feats with stone being considerably higher than everything else the other executives have shown off (including other characters at that level like Zoro, Sanji and Kyros) makes me question whether Pica is capable of such feats in his base form.

There's also Zoro's feat being 7-B, Pica's offensive feat being 7-B (albeit hypothetical), and Pica's other attack agaisnt Zoro that you suggested would be in the 7-B region. - And Chinjao and Elizabello managing to cancel out one of his attacks which is roughly 7-B.

Personally it seems to me that while Pica is capable of reaching up to 7-A with enough access to stone, his offensive feats are generally lower than that.
 
I think it's pretty clear when this scene plays out.

Also, if it's not a linear increase, then that means he's even more than 5x powerful than Fukuro. Either we use linear because there's more support for that, or assume it's exponential higher (not exponentially lower--no scale works like that when the value increases).

While it never says whether it is linear or not, it doesn't matter. Whether we argue it is "linear" or whatever, Lucci, Kaku and Jabra will be High 7-C or higher regardless.
 
@Damage

That's why I said that even if Pica can't reach those levels by himself, his Durability would scale anyway. Tanks are a thing.

@Cin

Yes, that evidence was brought up before. But it's not me who you need to convince. I supported this but due to the lack of supporting evidence we never made any changes based on that. For the record, I think that Lucci being 5x stronger than Fukurou isn't bluff nor any inconsistency and it could be applied. It might give a good lower estimate for Gear Second as well.
 
@Damage -

1) Again, Zoro's feat can not properly scale how much energy that attack displayed. The Pica Statue that was sent flying upwards was not even directly hit by the attack and was sent flying vertically, rather than horizontally. The value should be significantly higher, but we can never know.

2) Pica is among the top 3 Executives. Ofc the rest should be weaker by default. The 7-B values come from the energy required to move the statue's arms or entire body. lower 7-B to throw a punch, 7-B+ just to stand up. And he's got more 7-A feats than 7-B, and the "consistency" argument is ridiculous at this point. 7-B is the energy required to move his golem a specific distance, not the total power behind the attack. KE values for throwing such punches (I can't do this due to baseless time-frames) would be consistently 7-A.

  • Physical power does not "factor a bit" -- Where does the energy come from, then? Nothing? The stone was molded and moved from Pica's will, as he is the sole thing moving the stone--nothing else. It should fully scale to him.
    • Also, Pica had way more stone to utilize than what he used for his largest Golem. It's not a sound argument to say "he only has x amount of AP" from more stone when he has only used a consistent size for his golem, and attacks on the Flower Hill. If he could have free reign over the stone, he would have used more of the island, the flower hill, or the royal plateau while he was connected to it. The fact he didn't (and using his powers showed visible strain at a couple points) indicates his limitations.
2.5) Also, Trebol and Diamante only ever fought on top of the Flower Hill (for serious fights at least), so there isn't really much to work with "feat-wise" up there.

  • Trebol's only significant feat is laughable, Diamante's went flying off the top of the flower hill, so we can't know how much land he can raze with a simple sword slash.
3) Elizabello and Chinjao each struck a narrow point in his arm and the stone is not dense enough to withstand the impact of their combined attack. The arm crumbled before the attack could actually touch any surroundings, let alone Elizabello (Chinjao is unknown to have touched the arm or not... Can't tell from manga). So neither of them could really scale when this particular event can be considered to be an outlier. PE + Stone breaking is all we can argue. (also the arm was mostly outstreched before they performed the feat and at least 4 panels before the attacks landed, so the KE argument in 2 would not really apply here since it can be argued to take over 10 seconds and still be lower end City level anyways).
 
When did Pica show visible strain when using his abilities?

I know Pica has more 7-A feats than 7-B (well, depending on how the evaluations go) but I meant if it was consistent for the other characters we're trying to scale to base Pica.

DF powers don't always depend on physical power from what I can tell. Though Pica's ability is to merge with stone and control it, that doesn't mean the limitation on the amount of stone he can manipulate depends on his physical strength.

I gave an example of this up above; telekinesis users have to expend energy to move large masses but though the energy comes from them it doesn't scale to their physical ability or durability (at least in most cases).

The argument that 'he could lift up the Flower Hill with 7-A force' so therefore 'his punches in his base form carry the same 7-A force' doesn't make sense to me without additional evidence. When he has his base form ever been shown to be that strong?

There's also the matter of Lifting Strength not always correlating to Striking Strength. If Pica is physically exerting himself in a manner comparable to pushing/lifting the stone, then that doesn't mean his actual attacks in base have the same strength.
 
Here's one case. There's at least two more cases while he fights Zoro, but that will take some digging and I'd rather go to sleep within an hour.

All of Pica's feats would technically be 7-B+ (Royal Plateau basically being the lowest. And it never happened, so it should not really count regardless) to 7-A. Almost all being 7-A. The only character that even scales to base Pica directly is Zoro (Who, again, wrecked Pica).

No, DF powers don't always depend on the user's abilities and strength, but a lot of them do, and Pica's seems to be the case for supporting that.

  • Take Diamante as comparison--he utilizes his power to wear a steel cape and hide large weapons within his clothing--none of which would be scaled to him due to the fact that they are external sources.
  • Pica on the other hand, manipulates stone upon touching it. And he is capable of moving large masses at incredible speeds through his own power.
 
Yes, he moves stone after merging with it, but being able to 'push' large masses of stone around seems more closely tied to Lifting Strength, not Striking Strength.

After the calcs are all evaluated, I think we should take a look at which ones are for actual attacks from Pica, and which ones only involve him moving stone.
 
... I just said the movement of the stone is 7-B energy via PE. KE for actually using it in punches would be significantly higher and easily 7-B+ to mid 7-A, as shown with the other feats (The sole exception being w/ Elizabello and Chinjao due to the arm already being mostly stretched out and 3 panels later it is fully stretched--significantly longer time-frame than the rest).
 
It seems that the two blogs of Cin are done evaluated. So the rating of some characters are -

  • Colosseum fighter, Donquixote Executives, weaker members of the SH, Hody Jones, Viola, Tashigi: Low 7-B+
  • Elizabello with King Punch and Bartolomeo's barrier: 7-B
  • Pica, Trebel, Diamante, Kyros, Zoro, Sanji, Vergo, Smoker: 7-A
 
If we use the 7-A calc for Zoro's feat against Pica, I'm fine with the new ratings.
 
Hmmm, depends on whether for the Torso part is ME or LE because the ME is 7-A+

And then there is the Top Tiers of the Arc and their ratings, imo we have several option to scale them off:

  • We have Fujitora's feat where the KE values would grant either 7-A+ to High 7-A+
  • We have the Birdcage which still need to be discussed more iirc to see if they scale to meteor or not.
  • We have that Ace heat calc that would put Yonkou Commanders at High 7-A+, and Doflamingo has been shown able to handle Jozu at that one moment in the war so....
  • And if nothing else, we scales them to be far superior to that of Pica's feats.
 
Regarding the Aokiji feat, there's a few different ends for that. The 7-A+ result should be fine though.

Fujitora may be 7-A from that feat if we use the P.E. calc, which I personally think is preferable to the K.E. versions since we wouldn't have to assume a timeframe.

The Ace calc isn't applicable.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Wasn't the calc still up to discussion?
Click to expand...
Well, I believe the result was that the calc was mathematically fine, but the assumptions behind the feat aren't strong enough to guarantee that it actually happened the way it was calced.
 
Damage3245 said:
Well, I believe the result was that the calc was mathematically fine, but the assumptions behind the feat aren't strong enough to guarantee that it actually happened the way it was calced.
Click to expand...
Yes i know but that was just you, Calaca Vs and Rin The Dragon Empress disagreed and beside you three no one else (not even one Calculation Group's member) had partecipate the discussion.
 
Well if you want to discuss it that's fine of course. No topics are restricted.
 
Not 100% sure which ends are accepted, but since the calc members did not imply anything, I believe the Mid Ends for both Pica Growth feats would apply (as I discussed them more in depth), so 424MT and 838MT respectively - But I will assume the low end for the 2nd feat (for now), so they'd scale to 424MT.

@Damage - Just quick, if we're going to scale based off of Pica, then I believe if Zoro is (far) stronger than Pica, Gear 2/3 Luffy should be at least comparable to Zoro, or at least as strong as Pica. If that's the case and we use the whole "3x" multiplier, and we also use the Aokiji calc for scaling Doflamingo:

Luffy: At least 7-B, likely X with Base (Wherever he lies here), Likely 7-A with Gear 2nd and 3rd (Should be stronger than Pica and comparable to Zoro. Was capable of harming Fujitora with an Elephant Gun), High 7-A with Gear 4th (Stronger than before. Implied by Doflamingo to have tripled his attack power from his previous limit)

Doflamingo would be: At least 7-A+ (Stronger than Pica and Vergo, took no damage from Aokiji's casual freezing. Easily far stronger than Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy), likely High 7-A (Although weaker than Bound Man Luffy, he was still capable of trading blows with him--incapable of harming Luffy only because of Luffy's blunt force defense via Gomu Gomu no Mi).

Pica: Likely 7-A in Base (Gave Zoro some trouble, but was ultimately outmatched by him in combat), 7-A with Stone Golems (via calcs), 7-A Environmental Destruction (PE feats like making the Flower Hill)

Zoro: 7-A (Low-diffed Pica and tanked punches from his Golem)

Fujitora At least 7-A from his own PE feat and scaling above Zoro, who beat Pica.

That'd basically be the gist of it.
 
I can't remember what feat we use to scale base Luffy with exactly, assuming it is a 7-B feat we can probably just put him at 7-B in base.

The rest of the ratings generally look fine to me though I think Doflamingo should probably only be 'Likely High 7-A' when he is using Awakening. His ordinary attacks did nothing to Gear 4 Luffy.
 
I believe we use to have Base Luffy scales with the rest of the Collesuem Fighters, iirc. It was an error that that Luffy's page now have 7-B as his base's stat
 
So you're saying that base Luffy should probably be At least Low 7-B+?
 
I guess, either that or scales Base Luffy to Zoro and Sanji, there is no calc that puts him at 7-B, the only calc at 7-B currently is King Punch and I don't believe Base Luffy scales to that.

Luffy didn't do much in his base form much besides matching blows with Chinjao and Bellamy who are both Low 7-B+ and getting stomp by Doflamingo

EDIT:

For Doflamingo, he should definitely be

AP: "At least 7-A+, Likely High 7-A with Awakening".

Durability: High 7-A (Able to withstand and tanks blow from Gear Four Luffy)
 
Considering that Luffy was pretty impressed by the King Punch when he first saw it, I don't think he could quite match up to it at that time without using Gears.

At least Low 7-B+ makes sense to me.
 
Well Luffy was generally impressed with a lot of people in the Coliseum in general (be it general interest or finding them to have interesting powers), so it shouldn't really be put against him.

At least Low 7-B+, likely far higher would be better simply because we know him to be stronger than all of them, and he can't be far weaker than Zoro and Sanji, who both can hurt Top Executives with normal attacks. Bellamy and Chinjao both only hurt Luffy with Haki, and while that may not be a valid argument to justify Luffy being higher tier regularly, it's something to bring up later down the road when Haki is explained more clearly.

Doflamingo was incapable of harming Luffy due to Luffy's Bound Man utilizing Haki in a way that allowed him to retain his rubbery stature, thus mitigating the impact of Doflamingo's kick and sending him flying back. And Doflamingo only threw one attack before using his Awakening in any case. Can't really put it against him if the Gomu Gomu no Mi made a single kick useless--Doffy was in a weakened state anyways and Luffy had to apply several attacks to find out they weren't effective in putting Doflamingo down before KKG. He honestly should be High 7-A without Awakening. It might happen anyways if the 800+ MT for Pica's feat is accepted, tbh.

  • The Durability of Doffy is going to scale regardless cuz of how the fight went down.
 
At least Low 7-B+, likely higher would also be fine for me.

Doffy definitely took at least four Gear 4 hits before he was finally put down but it's not really right to say he withstood them. He was getting battered around and sent flying even when he blocked them.
 
Don't underestimate Doffy's durability. He was healing his inner organs at that time and was still able to stand up and try to fight back despite being clearly overwhelmed by G4's raw power. He definitely scales to G4.
 
That does not deny the fact that he was strained in that one instance. If it required little to no physical effort on his part, there'd be no reason for him to be huffing despite being angry. I got home just now (2 hours later than usual) and it has been a rough day, so if you'd like to find other cases (if any) of Pica showing strain with using his power, I'll appreciate that.

@Damage - Doflamingo was weakened from his injuries, and he was still taking the hits and kept getting back up. He managed to block a Kong Gun despite being sent flying with no implied damage to his arms (He was staggered and coughing up blood, but this is strongly implied to be from his 'delicate' condition at the time), and he also withstood a Rhino Schneider to the side of the head with little injury. Only Leo Bazooka dealt any serious damage to Doflamingo--but the latter struck Doflamingo in his weakest spot--the area where to took a Red-Hawk, Injection shot, Gamma Knife, and Counter Shock just shortly before this event.

  • Doflamingo still got up after those hits from G4 Luffy despite it all. It took Luffy's strongest attack to take him out once and for all.
We really need to work on the scaling of the Commanders if we're questioning Doflamingo scaling to G4 Luffy, cuz they scale for similar reasons despite this now being under question (Although Doffy and Katakuri are the only ones to take direct hits from Luffy and actually block them and keep fighting)
 
Hmm, High 7-A should be fine for Doffy's durability then. Though we are in agreement that Law doesn't fully scale to that, right?
 
Law would only be "At least 7-A" from being superior to Vergo. He's clearly no match for Doflamingo, and got torn apart (literally), when Doflamingo actually got serious. And the only attack that actually hurt Doflamingo (excluding hax) was a sword slash that only cut into Doffy's hand enough to make him drip a little blood, which is entirely possible even with a large gap (which there isn't... unless Doffy scales higher later on from any other feat).

  • And Law has only ever successfully blocked Doflamingo's attacks with Haki or his sword. Without either, he got dismembered, or threads pierced him completely through.
So basically: Doflamingo (At least 7-A, Likely High 7-A) > Law (At least 7-A) > Vergo/Pica (7-A).
 
Okay. I agree with that scaling based on the updated & new calcs that have been accepted.

Might I suggest that we also put Fujitora as At least 7-A? He was able to beat and restrain Law, matched Luffy (using Gear 2 & 3) and only took a bruise from Luffy's Gear 3 attack.
 
I ask Spinosarus76DinosaurFan about which end to use and this is his response: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3004950#5

He chosen the KE version for Fujitora's feat which is either 7-A+ or High 7-A+

He also said the Mid-End for both for Pica's growth are fine, though Low-End would be safer (so, we have the option to choose between ME or LE for both feats)

EDIT:

Now we wait for Cin to fix Zoro's Daisen Sekkai which I guessing would be back to 7-B+ or at a super baseline 7-A. And get the Ugarik's Ice Age calc to be evaluated
 
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