• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #7

Damage3245

Damage3245

He/Him
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
31,365
27,631
Quite a few calcs have been remade in the light of certain errors being discovered in previous calcs, this means that a lot of the current scaling chains for Post-Timeskip characters are obsolete and require a thorough examination. Here is a rough list of all the calcs to take into consideration.

Here is the previous thread.

Current Topics

  • Determining the scaling of characters in the Dressrosa Arc.
  • Revising the ratings for the Vinsmoke Family, and Charlotte Family as a result of Charlotte Oven's calc being revised from Mountain level to City level.
  • Evaluating Aokiji's calc for freezing the ocean.
  • Create a clear scaling chain between the High Tier characters and who they scale to.
I will make a list of everything that has already been decided and settled on soon, but the things up above are what needs to be sorted out in the near-future.
 
My main concern is going to be Dressrosa scaling and the Bird-Cage/Meteorite calculations as I'm not particularly interested in the Oven content, I don't know the current argument regarding the Aokiji calc, and this will lead into the High Tier scaling chain, which I will discuss after.

Dressrosa Scaling (Mostly referring to Doflamingo/Bird-Cage)
Now then, going to get right to the Bird Cage. As Damage and I have been arguing, either the cage cut the meteorite 6 times (hence it is in 7 chunks on-panel, a few more in a later panel), or the artist took the liberty to put less detail on the cage and meteorite considering the shots we see with them on panel with wide-shots display an easily countable number of threads, and meteorite pieces. I am arguing for the latter, and this is what I believe to be the case:

1) Birdcage threads

Conclusion: The bird-cage threads are spread apart in wide shots in order to keep artists from spending countless hours on an entire chapter, drawing every small detail in the background while also having to draw attention to what's actually happening in the chapter. The threads are obviously only a few centimeters apart, otherwise anyone could escape, and due to the umbrella shape, they are obviously closer to eachother the further up it goes to the center.

2) Bird-Cage cutting the meteorite:

  • As we can see here, yes, there are only 7 visible chunks, but as seen upon a closer look in the next panel, up to 14+ large chunks of the meteorite can be seen, if we exclude the two up in the sky that possibly came from another meteorite. There are also cuts that are visible along the meteorite, implying they have been cut, just not separated.
  • The meteorite is clearly large enough to cover entire city blocks, as shown in the last link, which clearly suggests that 6 cuts is impossible unless the meteorite broke off many of the threads in its way (clearly didn't). Again, artist decision to prevent an incredibly unnecessary amount of detail over the course of 4 to 5 panels (between 2 pages)
  • As previously mentioned, the threads are less than 1/10th of a centimeter in thickness. Had the meteorite been sliced apart upon falling at 11km/s at multiple vectors (thousands, at least), and it did not lose much of its velocity, it is incredibly likely that it would not separate fully until after hitting the ground (The time it would have taken from hitting the cage to landing on the ground is less than 2 seconds, no dispute). The cuts are incredibly thin and the surface the meteorite covers would make it difficult for each piece to push away from eachother when falling, at least in that time-frame. And considering we see it go from 7 chunks to 14/15 chunks in the next page, the 6-cut argument is out anyways.
Conclusion: Now, we can do this one of a few ways:

a) Go with the previously accepted ratio, which would give the durability of the cage a High 7-A rating as before, and scale it to Doflamingo because... (will get into it).

  • Basically making anyone scaling to this as a primary/secondary scale to High 7-A.
b) If we assume that the anime displayed the event with any accuracy (excluding the fact that there's only one meteorite... lol), then the meteorite was completely stopped by the cage, fully scaling the largest meteorite's KE to the cage, and then to Doflamingo.

  • Making anyone scaling to this as primary/secondary scale to 6-C.
c) Same as a, but including the KE of the rest of the meteorites, as the impact between each meteorite is too small for the cage to have any recovery from each subsequent hit, so a >24% value of the collective AP of the meteorites.

  • IDK what the value of this would be, but I suspect a lower end of 6-C overall.
d) same as b, but including the KE of the rest of the meteorites.

  • Probably nearing the AP of Zunisha walking if the rest of the meteorites collectively equal the AP of the largest.
Personally, I'm leaning for a or c as b/d assume the meteorite comes to a complete stop and we don't know that unless we rely on the anime, but you guys can argue for whatever.

3) Scaling.

  • Doflamingo created the Bird-Cage, and each time we've seen him do it, it was with absolutely no preparation time, and he summoned the threads directly from his palm, or from the Black Knight, implying the threads do not take any effort for him to create. He should scale to his own creation.
    • Basically, I am suggesting that all his threads that are exclusively used for combative purposes are this strong. Besides, the only character EVER shown strong enough to break or damage the threads is Luffy (Off-panel with unknown effort--implied to be Gear 3rd + Haki via anime, but that's not considered canon here, and Gear 4th Luffy, which we know to be physically stronger than Doflamingo).
  • Luffy is not a tricky matter. Gear 4th scales above Doflamingo, and Doflamingo stated Gear 4th to be "several" (3 or more, but the official translations suggest 3) times stronger than before. Gear 2nd Luffy would be 1/3 Gear 4th's AP from this. We know Luffy AP/Dura does NOT scale to Doflamingo without Gear 4th because of the following:
    • When both were in good condition, Luffy could never harm Doflamingo with the sole exception of Red-Hawk, which uses Haki, and sent an explosion through Doflamingo's torso--hence Durability negation, which was accepted not too long ago--and Doflamingo was unprepared.
    • Doflamingo stomped Luffy twice, and nearly a third time before he was weakened. Doflamingo also refers to Luffy as weak several times, and was unphased by Gear 2nd attacks shortly after using Shufuku Sagyo to repair the damage to his body.
    • Even after Red-Hawk, Injection Shot, and Gamma Knife all brought Doflamingo down a few notches (a lot more than that, honestly), Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy was still overpowered by Doflamingo, despite being more successful than before (Only because Doflamingo was weakened), so it should be fair to say that only Gear 4th scaled to Doflamingo, and Luffy's Gear 2nd to 1/3 of Gear 4th (merely because we only see Doflamingo take hits from Gear 2nd, and never directly from Gear 3rd.)
Just as an example: assuming High 7-A Doflamingo (3.1GT or whatever it was), Luffy would be At least 7-B with Base, likely higher, High 7-A with Gear 2nd (around baseline, considering the numerical value), higher with Gear 3rd, and At least High 7-A with Bound Man (>3.1GT).

That's all I'll say for now. We can get more detailed if the whole Bird-cage mess gets concluded.

Also, for the record, I do not agree with Gear 3rd Luffy scaling to Katakuri during Whole-Cake when only ONE Gear 3rd Punch was implied to match Katakuri's Muso Donuts, when that's an outlier in their entire fight, and Luffy is consistently overpowered before and after this specific event until he utilzies Gear 4th again.
 
I'm not going to be able to fully respond to all of that until this evening, but I will make a response detailing why i think it is more likely the meteor was sliced into fewer chunks, and my issues with some of the scaling being suggested.

I also want to explain how the durability of the Birdcage shouldn't scale to Doffy's AP if I get the chance.
 
Cin's argument makes a lot of sense. It sounds really nonsensical for the meteorite to be cut only a few times given its size and scale.
 
I appreciate people wanting to jump in to the new thread & new convo already, but I haven't even had a chance to formulate a reply / counter-argument yet to Cin's long post, so I'd personally appreciate if people kept comments that don't add anything other than an agreement to a minimum.
 
I agree with Cin, it ridiculous to assume that bird-cage threads are spread apart several dozen of meters from each other since otherwise any superhumans can escape by jumping into the sky where the threads are separated widely and Machvise will not be cut by bird-cage threads when he was thrown into the sky.
 
We ought to get some official word from the Calc Group settling the topic of meteors.

The current Calculations thread says that 11,000 m/s is the minimum entry speed, and that 17,000 m/s is a reasonable high end speed.

Assuming we go with 43.69 Gigatons, I think it likely that some of the resultant scaling (also assuming we scale the Birdcage fully to the meteors) will be an outlier.

EDIT: I'll be getting home sooner than I expected so I can write my response to Cin's post in a couple hours.
 
>Feats coming from High/Top Tiers

>Outliers

Yeah no. Stop using such claims like they make sense. It's like calling the 8-A calc an outlier because we have no similar feats on that level besides Crocodile's feat.
 
Well, I haven't even begun to explain how it could be considered an outlier yet.

I'm keeping an open mind going into this, but that doesn't mean accepting anything without reservations.

Even high tier characters can have outliers if it is inconsistent.
 
Yeah, even using the highest end for meteors gives a feat 1.5x stronger than Zunisha's. That's far from being an outlier.
 
It depends on what this is scaling to. If you're talking about scaling it to Kaido or Akainu for example, I'm not disagreeing with you - but if this is scaling to someone like Gear 2 Luffy from the Dressrosa Arc then I can't deny that I may have problems with it.
 
Before I get into the whole Meteor/Birdcage discussion, I want to address the scaling first so that we get the scaling settled regardless of what the end result of the calcs will be.

1) The durability of the Birdcage does not automatically scale to the AP of the Birdcage. (Durability can be scaled from AP in a lot of circumstances such as a character's body withstanding the force of their own punches, but the inverse is not necessarily true.)

2) The durability of the Birdcage does not scale to Doflamingo's AP or Durability directly.

For example, just because a character uses their ability to create a sword out of thin air that can withstand Mountain level amounts of energy, that doesn't mean that the character themselves has to be Mountain level.

Likewise just because Doflamingo manipulates strings in his Black Knight, or projects strings from his body, that does not mean he has to be as durable as the strings he creates.

3) The durability of the strings of the Birdcage may scale to other strings Doflamingo has created; as noted, the only one to properly break through these was Gear 4 Luffy using his strongest attack. Something that Doflamingo himself doesn't scale to.

4) Assuming that approximately 21769 strings were hit by the meteorite (going by the ratio calced by Cin earlier), each individual string would have recieved a certain amount of energy each. No string was hit by the full amount of energy from the meteor. So even if we scaled Doflamingo's strings to the Birdcage, the end result of the Birdcage calc would not be the durability of the individual strings.

EDIT: Calaca, I didn't mean to say that somebody else directly implied that, I gave it as an example.
 
Cin is more knowledgeable about the Birdcage so I won't way much about this discussion but...

3) If Luffy breaks the strings and punches Doffy then Doffy scales because he's not breaking apart from a force that has broken the strings. Even if he scales lower.

4) IIRC the calc doesn't say a thing about the strings tanking the full KE but using the surface difference instead to get a proper number for its Durability.

I don't get why do you use an already settled example. We have discussed and accepted that Luffy shouldn't currently scale to the meteor so using him as a basis to argue that the meteor power is an outlier is wrong. In fact you think that nobody should scale to it, so why would you use such example when nobody here would argue that Dressrosa G2 scales to that? It sounds like a Strawman.
 
> 3) If Luffy breaks the strings and punches Doffy then Doffy scales because he's not breaking apart from a force that has broken the strings. Even if he scales lower.

Doffy was one-shot by it. Even if he didn't die from the impact, his durability still doesn't scale to the punch.

> 4) IIRC the calc doesn't say a thing about the strings tanking the full KE but using the surface difference instead to get a proper number for its Durability.

It gets the durability of the section of Birdcage hit by the meteor, but not for the individual strings.

> In fact you think that nobody should scale to it, so why would you use such example when nobody here would argue that Dressrosa G2 scales to that? It sounds like a Strawman.

Cin suggested that Doffy's durability scales to the Birdcage, and therefore Gear 2 Luffy scales to that.

I didn't know what side of that argument you were on Calaca.
 
I want talking about the KKG. Luffy broke the strings with the G4 transformation as well.

4) Oh, I get it.

>G2 scales to Doffy

With what? The attack that was clarified to be Durability Negation? If anything the only thing that should scale to Doffy is G4 and arguably G3 for posing a threat that Doffy needed to block instead of just tanking it with no effort.
 
> I want talking about the KKG. Luffy broke the strings with the G4 transformation as well.

A transformation isn't an attack.

And as I mentioned, those were a much smaller number of strings compared to the full amount hit by the meteor (if we go with Cin's version).

> With what?

No idea. I also disagree with scaling it to Doffy.
 
The force of the transformation broke the strings unlike Jozu who was stopped mid-attack with the strings and was immonilized.

Right now we can't scale the Red Hawk to Doffy unless some visible external injury is proved.
 
@Damage - Going to your initial 4 points:

1 [before attempting to refute this point, look onto point 4 as it has some relevance here]) Yes, but while that is true, the threads did not only tank the meteorites, but when they clashed, the meteorite was severed into whatever many pieces. While the AP of slicing the meteorites alone is NO WHERE near the amount of energy as the durability feat itself, it was only done upon simultaneously meeting the force of the impact head-on.

  • Although not related, The cage itself (while controlled by Doflamingo) is also strong enough to surpass the efforts of Fujitora and countless others. The enclosure of the cage was able to keep shoving Haki-amped Fujitora back, so to say that the durability is all that scales is really unlikely. Even if Fujitora could not break the threads, if the AP was significantly lower (around Doffy's accepted AP, for example), then stopping the cage without destroying it would have been a simple task.
    • Also, before anyone argues Fujitora = or > Doflamingo, nothing supports this at any point.
2) Let's say Doflamingo uses similar (or stronger, whatever) threads in combat: Luffy's physically strong enough to break out of Doflamingo's threads upon entering Gear 4th (He flexed out of them. The transformation wasn't what broke the threads. Luffy broke them off after transforming. I'm not agreeing with Cal here at all). Against Doflamingo's Awakening threads, he punched a hole through a wave of them with a head-butt. I would only credit Gear 4th Luffy as being this strong, as Luffy broke from the threads binding his arms through unknown means, and unknown amounts of time and effort with his lesser gears. Doflamingo then takes hits from Luffy despite being in a weakened state, and can keep fighting. Also, Doflamingo can hurt characters who are strong enough to at least deal some level of damage to him such as Law (obviously disregarding the hax abilities).

3) The strings on Luffy were snapped just by him flexing. The Awakening threads were parted, damaged, broken, or whatever by a headbutt. Gear2nd/3rd also broke threads, but through incredible levels of effort and possibly time, so he wouldn't scale.

4) Actually, both the cage and the meteorite are spherical in shape. This means 1, at most 2 threads would come into contact with the meteorites initially. The meteorite would have to be cut into by a small amount before it starts coming into contact with the rest of the strings. Also, the cage would be treated as one object as it is connected. Just think of it as a shell with holes.

  • Not to mention, if we're really gonna divide its durability by THAT number of threads, not a single one would have survived the impact. They would each have to withstand a large portion of the KE just to make it through the impact, let alone cut the thing. If each thread were, say, City Block durability just because we divided by the number of threads that had to come into contact with the meteorite, the meteorite would have crashed through EVERY thread one by one. Not a single thread can withstand Island level KE coming into contact with it, even if not fully. They have to possess at least a fraction of that just to survive, let alone actually destroy the object yielding that much KE.
Anyways, like I said, the 24% ratio (for one or all meteorites) is fine because the other two options come from assuming the meteorite stopped, and unless we can all agree that it did, there's no way of knowing if it just kept going full speed, slowed down, or stopped.

Regarding the scaling, only Gear 4th Luffy scales to Doflamingo. Law got basically low-diffed and only lasted because of hax that Doffy was wary of, only managing to scratch Doflamingo's hand with his best efforts without relying on his DF, and Luffy got stomped every single time up until Gamma Knife and only hurt Doflamingo with a Red-Hawk, and nothing else up until chapter 782.
 
Also, it was already agreed upon that Luffy's Red Hawk has limited Durability negation for similar reasons that Sanji's Diable Jambe does. It would not scale to Doflamingo.
 
Just another note:

It would be incredibly strange for Doflamingo to be capable of using something on the scale Bird-Cage, and then his Awakening, which is noted by him as being "beyond" or in other translations "Another stage entirely to the powers of a Devil Fruit", would not power-scale--at least in Durability.

Bird-Cage comes from either Doflamingo's hand, or from an already summoned bundle of threads (Black Knight, for example), so it would certainly not be an awakening technique. Am I being told that Doflamingo's Awakening is inferior to his Bird-Cage, even if we somehow argued Doflamingo's base attacks didn't scale?

And Doflamingo can control the cage at will just like any of his strings in general.
 
1) The cage surpassing the physical strength of the others is a different feat altogether if that's what you're going to use to try and gauge Doflamingo's AP. The Birdcage tanking the meteors cannot be used to get AP.

2) You're comparing Luffy 'flexing' out of a handful of strings with the tens of thousands of strings that survived the meteor impact. There isn't any way of saying they're comparable as far as I can see.

  • Luffy forced a hole open in a bundle of threads, but he didn't break them. If he did, why would Doflamingo be so shocked / angry later when he exclaimed 'You broke my strings!'. If Luffy was capable of doing that the whole fight, Doffy would have no reason to say that.
3) I think it is most likely that Luffy's headbutt parted the strings.

4) If you did the ratio method with only one or two strings, you'd find that the resulting energy would be nowhere near the level fo the meteor.

5) I don't see how it would be strange for Birdcage to be on a scale above his other techniques. 'Another stage entirely to the powers of a Devil Fruit' says nothing about AP. When Doflamingo and Katakuri both started using their Awakening, all they did initially was convert the surrounding landscape to their 'element'. It's another level of their ability because they couldn't do this before, but it didn't represent a massive AP boost.

I'm not telling you that Doflamingo's Awakening is inferior to his Birdcage, I'm saying that Doflamingo's statement isn't evidence to support the Awakening being superior to the Birdcage.
 
1) Ignoring the enclosure feat vs Fujitora for now, as that's not important. The Bird-cage didn't just tank the KE of the meteorites, but destroyed the meteorites as they were coming in with that much energy behind them. That's the point.

2) Going to #4. I feel like you ignored what I said.

3) His head-butt destroyed the threads without a doubt. a straight-forward attack causing all the threads to simply shift to the side instead of back towards the direction the attack is going makes no sense. That would only work for the threads not directly caught in the attack, as seen.

  • Doesn't matter if Doflamingo said one thing later on, he was clearly shocked just before being struck my Leo Bazooka, and besides, you pointed out that Doflamingo noted his strings breaking from Luffy flexing in G4. You say he was "shocked/angry" only from chapter 790's case, but Chapter 785 clearly shows Doflamingo surprised and left speechless before Leo Bazooka connected.
4) From #2, you ignored what I said and why the original calculation was accepted.

a) The ratio is used simply because of the total area coverage for the meteorite and cage touching, but it was later argued that the meteorite did ridiculously low damage to the city (around City level with the old scaling, certainly less with the newer scaling), meaning the cage sucked up most of the KE before it passed through.

  • Also the ratio was used because of the members who believed it necessary to scale that way due to the fact that this would imply Doflamingo and thus Fujitora would scale to the top tiers of the verse, as hardly any other feat at the time could compare, and literally no other reason. Realistically, with all that's presented, the cage should fully scale AT LEAST to the largest meteorite, if not all of them. But it wasn't totally accurate to assume the cage scaled 100% to the meteorite, as we don't see the meteorite hit, and just shatter upon impact, hence why the low-end 24% ratio was used.
b) If the threads had durability as low as you claim them to be, again, the threads would have been destroyed upon impact due to the meteorite touching one thread in each instance as it is being cut into. It doesn't matter if there's a small area coverage. The front of the meteorite would be hitting a thread dead on and would not stop while it is being sliced apart. Only a fraction of the energy would be left out. Not even a majority.

  • Each thread has to be capable of withstanding the meteorite's KE (Obviously not EQUAL to the energy the meteorite is outputting, but they were undamaged and cut completely through the meteorite, so who knows).
  • What I'm getting from you is that the meteorite's KE "must have distributed" evenly through all the threads it touched, but the thing is that it had to have touched a single thread first, and that the threads, while stationary, cut the thing into ribbons just from its own force coming into contact with it.
5) Bird-Cage is a tool Doflamingo uses to prevent escape using his threads to place a "barrier" around the area. It has not combative application outside of possibly chucking an opponent through it. And again, it is strange to assume that Doflamingo's threads used for combat would be of less durability than his bird-cage threads, seeing as how he, again, has no difficulty summoning countless of these threads for the cage. Again, the only character in the series ever shown to break Doflamingo's threads was Gear 4th Luffy.
 
1) To be more specific, the meteors destroyed themselves on the Birdcage. If I punch a wall hard enough to make my own fist bleed, the AP of the wall is not equal to or greater than mine.

3) I don't think that the strings were 'without a doubt' destroyed by Luffy's headbutt. It looks a lot more like they were pushed aside.

4) If you're saying that each thread has to be comparable to the meteor's K.E., if not equal, then that's suggesting Island level strings for the Birdcage. Like you said, the meteor had to touch a single string first (even if it was only for a fraction of a second) so the ratio method seems inaccurate for calculating that.

  • To follow up on this scaling, we'd end up with Island level Gear 4 Luffy. Island level Doflamingo. Island level Law... Even if you downplay Law's involvement, the way his profile is currently written states that he matched several of Doflamingo's attacks.
  • And if we go with your interpretation that Gear 2 Luffy is a third as powerful as Gear 4 Luffy (as mentioned earlier in the thread), then we'd end up with Island level Gear 2 Luffy too.
5) Why would it be strange for the strings of the Birdcage to be the most durable? The amount of effort Doflamingo puts into it is irrelevant.
 
@Damage

1) I don't think this is a very good comparison on the basis that your fist and the wall are of far different densities. If the strings are assumed to be similar in density to iron or steel, the difference between them and the space-rock would be significantly less.

3) I know that a large number of strings must have been moved aside, as they would if not actually hit directly by Luffy's head, but the ones hit directly--why would they go up or down, but not backwards, if not destroyed?

4) About the scaling--and this is only the case if we go with my first post's option b or d for scaling the Bird-cage. While that's likely, it's possible that we'll be going with option a/c since I can't prove that the meteorites came to a stop via the manga, and the small destruction in the city was previously chalked up to PIS (Why would Fujitora drop island busting meteorites onto civilians, i swear):

  • Law's stats need to be reevaluated again because several users (I compromised, and this was back when Black Knight scaled to Doflamingo) came to the conclusion that he blocked Doflamingo and the Black Knight's attacks (the latter is actually going to end up scaling to Law). However, Law only ever managed to scratch Doflamingo's hand without hax, and required Haki to block Doflamingo's attacks without his sword. Also, if we scaled BK, Law, and Gear 2nd Luffy to one another, Law would be < or = 1/3 Doflamingo anyways. Not a serious threat as we see (ignoring his ability, ofc), but not too weak to be defeated soundly.
    • Yes, he'd be Island level, assuming we go with b/d. Otherwise, he'd be around Base-line High 7-A with a.
  • Not my interpretation, it's just from a statement that Doflamingo claimed Gear 4th Luffy to be "several times" or "triple" in power as before, depending the translation. Base Luffy would be ridiculous if we left it 7-B scaling to the Coliseum fighters and Executives. Luffy, even in base, was capable of harming a weakened Doflamingo quite consistently while bloodlusted and w/ Haki (Chapter 782. No sign of smoke to indicate Gear 2nd, so it's definitely Base Luffy). Base Luffy would probably also have to scale to something like "Unknown, possibly 6-C/High 7-A" (depending on which end we use) just based off of that.
    • Omg, if someone brings up Chinjao again, I swear. I seriously doubt Luffy fought him with the full intent to knock him out until the last two hits--first one nearly KOing Chinjao on the spot, and the 2nd one deforming his head.
5) Doflamingo utilizes various other abilities for attack and defense. Why would Spider-Thread be used if it's any weaker than Bird-Cage in durability? Why would Overheat be used if the Bird-Cage threads are far more potent? I would drop the argument if Bird-Cage took preparation or time to deploy, but as it doesn't, this suggests Doflamingo can generate strings of such strength with no effort on his part, and should thus be capable of such feats if he so pleased.

  • Using the Cage enclosure as an example, Doflamingo toyed with Luffy by starting to close the Bird-Cage at an incredibly slow pace, then way later in their fight, he started closing it at a much faster speed to draw Luffy out. It's entirely possible he could have quickly destroyed the island if he so desired. He's sadistic. He was going to torment Luffy, and slowly kill everyone off on the island, not a single survivor left after turning everyone against each other earlier in the arc. Makes you wonder why he didn't close the cage at max-speed from the start.
I go to sleep in a few minutes and then work... and projects, so I'm going to be MIA for some time.
 
I'll wait till your online before getting back into the full discussion, but about the issue of the meteor initially connecting with only some of the Birdcage first:

Let's say hypothetically that the meteor hit a single string, and passed straight through it.

The amount of meteor hitting the string is just 0.00889 m.

A ratio of just 0.00001126528, for the whole 789.15 m wide meteor.

Multiply that ratio by the 182798959999997940000 joules of the meteor, and we get: 492.18 Kilotons.

So even if the meteor did only impact one or two strings initially, using your method we can see that the strings don't need to comparable to the whole meteor at all since they are touching such a tiny amount of it.

If we presume that the string simply vaporized all of the meteor that it came into contact with on that thin slice of meteor hitting it, we'd get a value of 26.71 Kilotons.
 
It sounds like 6-C Luffy is Damage's problem lol.

BTW it has been discussed and accepted that G4 is a 3x to Luffy's full potential which isn't G2 but G3. Looks like Cin has forgotten that so in any case the G3 would be scaling to 1/3 of G4.
 
Calaca Vs said:
It sounds like 6-C Luffy is Damage's problem lol.
BTW it has been discussed and accepted that G4 is a 3x to Luffy's full potential which isn't G2 but G3. Looks like Cin has forgotten that so in any case the G3 would be scaling to 1/3 of G4.
Click to expand...
The quote from Doflamingo doesn't make a reference to Gear 3. Nor is there anything implying that we should think Gear 3 is the 'limit' that Doflamingo is referring to.
 
I already explained why we'd use Gear 2nd and not 3rd. Doflamingo was never touched by a single Gear 3rd strike. He blocked Elephant Gun with Spider Thread, and then dodged Grizzly Magnum. Not once do we see him trading blows with Gear 3rd, but we see him doing do with Gear 2nd at every single instance. It's safer to come to the conclusion he is implying Gear 4th to be "several times" stronger than Gear 2nd when considering this.

@Damage - Again, the ratio argument would not work for the reasons I've already explained. For the 3rd time, the ratio was ONLY used because the users in the conversation were of the opinion that Doflamingo and Luffy would not scale to the same value as the top tiers and thus a low-ball. Nothing else. Considering that both objects were not flat, AND that the meteorite was destroyed upon impact, the ratio argument is useless. Againx3, Town level threads would be incapable of withstanding the impact of the meteorite. The majority of its KE would be coming into contact with only a fraction of it not applying. Town tier threads being struck by just the explosive energy (shock-wave) coming off of the meteorite (assuming the 13GT KE) would be easily exceeding City Level+ (I prefer calc group fact-checking this) and thus easily snap the threads if they were of Large Town level durability. That is also disregarding the fact that the object came into direct contact with the threads (and that the object is the one to give way, and not the threads).

(Working on poster designs and such for a project, so I'm not going to be totally active from today onwards)
 
If the ratio was only used to satisfy the doubts of people that thing they would not scale, then it seems to be an inaccurate approach to take. If the ratio argument is useless then we should consider alternative forms of calcing the feat.

If we just take into consideration that the two objects (the strings and the meteor) hit each other, and the meteor was the one to give way, then that implies that the string's durability > the meteor's durability. So we just need to calc the durability of the meteor, right?
 
At the point the argument was having people fight over it fully scaling to the meteorite, or not scale to it at all (the 6-cut argument), A difference of 6-B to 7-B at the time (Sun-sized scaling, lol). The main argument for the full scaling was the meteorite not damaging the cage in any way, but the meteorite itself being destroyed and the resulting AP on the city was almost nothing compared to the calculated KE. The main argument against it was... "outlier", or the indication that Doflamingo would be scaled to the top tiers.

If anything, the top tiers would be "At least" considering G4 Luffy is stronger than Doflamingo, the Admirals (original 3) should be stronger than Doflamingo, the Top commanders should be at least comparable due to their feats against Luffy, and the Yonko obviously >> Doflamingo and G4 Luffy.

You can get an energy value from the meteorite's durability, too, but that's not going to be the total energy, just adding a small amount to the overall value. I'm pretty certain fragmenting/violently fragmenting that chunk of rock would only be City level in any case. (Looks really quick using your 789.15m wide meteorite) Only like 1.7733e+16 Joules, or Small City level+ from just that (Using 69j/cc, which is a high-end, lol). Again, would not be the total value.

  • When a meteorite hits the ground at such speeds and destruction, they are usually destroyed down to shards, dust, or in few cases, vapor. As none of these happened upon it hitting the city, it's further confirmation that much of the energy was absorbed by the cage, and only the areas making contact were destroyed since the rest of it was only touching air. The threads survived the impact (At least most of it) where the meteorite didn't.
With all the consideration from before, we KNOW that the meteorite's total KE did not fully come into contact with the thread, but a large portion had to transfer over considering it basically did nothing to the island itself (like Small City AP upon contact). We can't say that the threads are 100% scaled to the meteorite, but the meteorite is so far into Island level to the point where the threads themselves should be Island level durability regardless.

(Also, this isn't relevant to the feat, but if a bunch of Small City to Mountain level characters could not even damage one thread that isn't imbued in Haki, and at best stop its movement momentarily, I seriously doubt the Large Town+ value for each thread. Hell, Fujitora did next to nothing despite being the strongest person individually going against it).

I think the only reason others have disregarded Doflamingo's cage being = or > the meteorite is because that would insinuate that Fujitora himself is equal or inferior to Doflamingo's threads, despite the contrary never being stated or proven (Especially when Doflamingo openly attacked him and Fujitora couldn't do anything about the cage, and was shocked that his meteorites were ineffective against the cage).

Anyways, I'm done talking about the cage (for now). This is a thread discussing other topics, so I might as well bring another one up:

Doflamingo's Parasito and Black Knight should give him some form of power on his page that allows him to make some form sentient beings. The Black Knight has its own intelligence and has acted without Doflamingo being needed to directly give it commands, and the Parasito makes individuals caught by it attack enemies at random (as opposed to his more direct control by placing threads on the limbs of targets directly).
 
Also, For the Coliseum Fighters scaling, I think we should include a calculation of the KE or PE (or both, whatever) of Pica's statue palm strike that Elizabello and Chinjao stopped, as that should also factor into the AP result, as the punch was stopped along with the Small City level energy coming from the destruction of the statue's arm. Pretty sure the over-all result would be somewhere comfortably in 7-B.
 
Well, Doflamingo does have this:

  • Duplication (via Black Knight, can create a perfect replica of himself to fight alongside him)
Doesn't that cover it?

As for the Coliseum Fighters scaling I'll see if I can add that to the existing calc and see if it results in an upgrade.

However I will say that if you really do want to scale the strings of the Birdcage to the full 43 Gigatons then we're going to run into some scaling problems that will a huge portion of the verse from the Mid Tiers in Dressrosa upwards into Island level.

I can see ways to avoid the massive scaling problems, but I don't know what the majority of people will go with.
 
@Damage - Wall of text imminent

Powers - Brief
Even if that can cover Black Knight, the power i'm bringing up is that some of Doflamingo's summoned threads seem capable of acting on their own (Black Knight being a creation that has Doflamingo's intelligence and can act on its own free will, which I guess Duplication works for, but Parasito causes victims to act in randomly aggressive patterns without Doflamingo doing anything after casting the ability).

Mid Tiers ain't scaling
Regarding the feat, honestly, I'm at the point where "If x character is hurt/blocks attack from y character, but one or both of them is using Haki, the AP/Dura of x character should not be affected, at least if this happens in one to two instances." (Such as Bellamy. Actually, are people seriously going to argue him scaling due to being able to hurt Luffy? We had the discussion as to why this wouldn't apply to Sanji vs Luffy in the next arc, so Bellamy's point is moot. Also, Chinjao was practically one-shot, so he surely can't scale to Luffy, who was not fighting seriously up until AFTER Chinjao was bad-talking Ace).

  • Not a single person before Doflamingo even gave Luffy anything beyond scratches that certainly wouldn't scale any character to him. (inb4 someone mentions Luffy noting he is tired to Cavendish after fighting Chinjao--we don't know how much of an impact using Haki has on Luffy, but using it perpetually for 20 minutes against Doflamingo left him near incapacitated, also Luffy was running around in the area for an extended period before ever fighting Chinjao. We also don't know if Chinjao would be easily capable of harming Luffy just by using Haki by default. We don't factor Haki into the AP of characters.)
  • Doflamingo, Luffy, Law, and Fujitora should be the only ones in Dressrosa affected. Everyone else would be 7-B scaling to their respective feats (Zoro 7-A from Asura).
Scaling of the Verse
As for who else would scale throughout the verse, only the top tiers would scale, and the commanders + very few others.

  • Bound Man Luffy > Doflamingo (Obvious reasons). Snake Man Luffy > Gear 3rd Luffy due to matching Katakuri where Gear 3rd was consistently overwhelmed (excluding the one outlier where Luffy supposedly matched a punch from Muso donuts, which is a contradiction of what happened before and after the event), but unknown in AP in comparison to Bound Man. Tank Man obviously being comparable to Bound Man due to destroying the Biscuit Soldiers and one-shotting Cracker.
  • Yonko > Bound Man Luffy
    • Big Mom slapping his Kong Gun aside with almost no effort, Kaido tanking a Kong Organ with no visible harm dealt to him, then proceeding to one-shot Luffy.
  • Yonko and Admirals > Doflamingo
    • Aokiji at least being somewhat stronger as Doflamingo was not confident enough to fight him openly and opting to let Smoker live, Akainu = to Aokiji, Kizaru = to both, Rayleigh comparable to Kizaru, Whitebeard likely above each 3 Admirals. Doflamingo admitting that Kaido would destroy him, if Law's plan succeeded in leading Kaido's forced to Dressrosa.
  • Gear 2nd Luffy = or < 1/3 Bound Man's AP and Durability
    • Stomped by a healthy Doflamingo, still low-diffed by a weakened Doflamingo. And Doflamingo's statement implying Bound man to be at least 3x stronger than what he has taken so far from Luffy.
  • Katakuri and other Commanders > Dressrosa 2nd and 3rd Gear Luffy, but < Bound Man Luffy
    • Biscuit Soldier low-diffing Luffy, Katakuri outmatching Gear 3rd Luffy with ease. Cracker overall being inferior in power to Bound Man, and Katakuri--like Doflamingo--being overpowered physically by Bound Man despite taking hits.
  • Doflamingo and Katakuri's Awakening being comparable to Bound Man Luffy
    • Both held him off long enough for the transformation to wear off--20+ minutes at least off panel for both cases
  • Jinbe > Gear 2nd Luffy
    • Due to their skirmish on Fishman Island, and because he managed to block an attack from a hunger-crazed Big Mom (weakened Big Mom, really), and could stagger her back with one of his strongest attacks.
TL;DR = Summary
TL;DR: For AP (Dura has slight difference) Bound-Man Luffy = Tank-Man Luffy > Snake-Man Luffy >> Gear 3rd/2nd Luffy > Base Luffy

Excluding Admirals for this next bit cuz IDK where they'd be in comparison to Luffy in Gear 4th. I'd believe above, but we have no clue.

Yonko > (Admirals? >) Gear 4th Luffy > Doflamingo/Commanders >/= Fujitora > Jinbe/Law/Gears Luffy - This is basically what the scaling would look like overall for the top and high tiers. Here's how I'd list them:

Yonko = At least 6-C (Stronger than Bound Man Luffy, who is in turn stronger than Doflamingo)

Admirals = 6-C (Likely stronger than Doflamingo)

Doflamingo = 6-C (Fujitora's Meteorite being entirely useless against the Bird-Cage. Above Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy. Withstood Gear 4th Luffy for a time), higher with Awakening (Could fend Bound Man off for over 20 minutes, and Luffy resorted to dodging and deflecting most of the attacks).

  • Could also note his effectiveness against Jozu, who in turn was capable of harming Aokiji, and thrashing Crocodile at the time.
Luffy = At least 7-B, At most 6-C in Base (Significantly stronger than all of the Coliseum fighters, and could harm a weakened Doffy [albeit with Haki]) Likely 6-C with Gear 2nd/3rd (should be around one-third as powerful as Bound Man via statement.) Red-Hawk ignores durability to an extent. 6-C with Gear 4th (Physically overwhelmed Doflamingo/Katakuri several times with Bound Man, and has broken Doflamingo's strings on occasion, a feat that surprised Doflamingo. Capable of matching Katakuri and ultimately defeating him with Snake Man.)

Law = Likely 6-C (Scaling to Black Knight, which pressured Gear 2nd Luffy, and was capable of cutting Doflamingo on one occasion)

Fujitora = Likely 6-C (Should be stronger than Law, and was capable of sending a Gear 3rd Luffy flying after blocking a barrage of his attacks. He also blocked a kick from Doflamingo, though it is unlikely Doflamingo was serious with his attack).

Jinbe = Likely 6-C (Should be superior to Gear 2nd Luffy, and was capable of defending himself against a weakened Big Mom.)

Commanders (Katakuri and Cracker) = 6-C (Above Gear 3rd Luffy in power quite casually, but incapable of matching Bound Man Luffy, but capable of harming him with attacks).

(So on and So Forth)
 
At least 7-B to 6-C in base is a ridiculous margin for Luffy's strength.

Why would he be holding himself back so much when fighting characters like Gladius who he hit directly with a Gear 2 kick?

If you're saying that Gear 2 Luffy is 6-C then Gladius logically has roughly 6-C durability; which goes on back to the Mid Tiers.

This is all relying on the assumption of course that all of Doflamingo's strings are the exact same durability as the ones in the Birdcage that tanked the meteor, despite it being shown that the durability of them can be different as seen when Doflamingo's Black Knight got destroyed twice by low tier/mid tier characters.

A far simpler method - if we do insist on scaling the Birdcage's durability to something close to the meteor's AP - is that the Birdcage has 6-C durability and we leave it at that.

Trying to use the Birdcage's durability to justify 6-C base Dressrosa Arc Luffy completely messes up the scaling for the series.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Nami_Kami
  • Locked
Slight Alabasta revisions:
Replies
12
Views
1K
Damage3245
Damage3245
HakutoRei000
WEAKEST CHARACTER FOR EVERY TIER FIGHT EACH OTHER.
Replies
1
Views
968
HakutoRei000
HakutoRei000
BERRIES555
Kamen Rider Geats AP Revsions
Replies
13
Views
2K
BERRIES555
BERRIES555
Flashlight237
Change in Tornado AP
Replies
30
Views
4K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Ednaxel2
Smash Bros, VS Battle's Tier list
Replies
23
Views
3K
Ednaxel2
Ednaxel2
Back
Top