Stefano4444
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Ok, the only one left to upgrade is Pre-Timeskip Luffy, which is currently lock.
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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #6
- Thread starter Damage3245
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Instead of relying on backwards scaling everyone from Zunisha, I propose that we try and go off a couple of the calcs we already have for characters and see what we get.
I don't fully agree with scaling Doflamingo to Aokiji, but we have two calcs for Aokiji's casual freezing which are City level and Mountain level.
So let's say Doflamigo's durability is Mountain level for withstanding it.
We can say that Law is Mountain level for fighting and harming Doflamingo.
Fujitora stomped Law in a fight and is clearly portrayed to be stronger, on top of having a casual City level+ calc.
So let's say that Fujitora is At least Mountain level, up to Island level with meteors (this is dependant on the results of our discussion about his meteors of course).
Luffy's Gear 4 would be At least Mountain level for stomping Doflamingo, likely higher because of how much more powerful he could become with his strongest attacks.
Now, this is obviously a downgrade for these characters but it is based on their current calcs instead of backwards scaling from a creature ridiculously far above them.
I don't fully agree with scaling Doflamingo to Aokiji, but we have two calcs for Aokiji's casual freezing which are City level and Mountain level.
So let's say Doflamigo's durability is Mountain level for withstanding it.
We can say that Law is Mountain level for fighting and harming Doflamingo.
Fujitora stomped Law in a fight and is clearly portrayed to be stronger, on top of having a casual City level+ calc.
So let's say that Fujitora is At least Mountain level, up to Island level with meteors (this is dependant on the results of our discussion about his meteors of course).
Luffy's Gear 4 would be At least Mountain level for stomping Doflamingo, likely higher because of how much more powerful he could become with his strongest attacks.
Now, this is obviously a downgrade for these characters but it is based on their current calcs instead of backwards scaling from a creature ridiculously far above them.
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So Old Chinjao is still At least Small City level then. Should 'likely higher' be added to it due to his drill?
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If G2 Luffy is city level then chinjao is also city level. He clashed equally with a gear 2 Haki fist and then fought G2 Luffy on even terms for a long period of time
Btw that logic of chinjao being small city level because he was defeated by a small city level attack is really bad and can be used to downgrade most of the characters in the series.
Btw that logic of chinjao being small city level because he was defeated by a small city level attack is really bad and can be used to downgrade most of the characters in the series.
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Okay, taking part into discussion wasn't my plan for today but I'll take a brief time to answer everything has been discussed so far.
First, yes, I agree with upgrading the speed for the characters in the EBS. Luffy and likely Zoro should get an at least for their current ratings considering how stronger they are in the food chain. Sanji shouldn't be added since he was slightly weaker most of the time and we have no feats putting him more than 'comparable to Zoro'. On top of that, Luffy and Zoro stalemated in Whiskey Peak, so it makes sense for them being more comparable than Zoro and Sanji, at least for the time being.
Second, I agree with Damage. Right now we can't backscale characters, so sadly, this is a downgrade for Dressrosa. I suggest to keep the discussion for WCI Luffy and Katakuri for other thread, because right now, we have tons of things to do and we cannot get involved in another discussion that will take days.
Luffy should be Low 7-B in base, 7-A in G3 for being a possible threat to Doffy. Red Hawk is weaker than G3 techniques and still could harm him.
The same way Fuji gets an at least, G4 Luffy should get as well considering he was clearly superior to Doffy and the only reliable way for the latter to win was outlasting Luffy.
Third, if Chinjao is getting upgraded to City level, so should Lao G at least for his buffed form, and possibly Gladius as well considering they were defeated by the (IMO) strongest Strawhats Grand Fleet members.
Fourth, Damage, what do you think about upgrading Pica's Durability to Mountain level, which scales to Zoro? With the current state of the arc the scaling is kinda closed but it makes more sense that Pica is only as good in attack with enough stone, but he's still able to generate that energy without strain or damage from using it.
First, yes, I agree with upgrading the speed for the characters in the EBS. Luffy and likely Zoro should get an at least for their current ratings considering how stronger they are in the food chain. Sanji shouldn't be added since he was slightly weaker most of the time and we have no feats putting him more than 'comparable to Zoro'. On top of that, Luffy and Zoro stalemated in Whiskey Peak, so it makes sense for them being more comparable than Zoro and Sanji, at least for the time being.
Second, I agree with Damage. Right now we can't backscale characters, so sadly, this is a downgrade for Dressrosa. I suggest to keep the discussion for WCI Luffy and Katakuri for other thread, because right now, we have tons of things to do and we cannot get involved in another discussion that will take days.
Luffy should be Low 7-B in base, 7-A in G3 for being a possible threat to Doffy. Red Hawk is weaker than G3 techniques and still could harm him.
The same way Fuji gets an at least, G4 Luffy should get as well considering he was clearly superior to Doffy and the only reliable way for the latter to win was outlasting Luffy.
Third, if Chinjao is getting upgraded to City level, so should Lao G at least for his buffed form, and possibly Gladius as well considering they were defeated by the (IMO) strongest Strawhats Grand Fleet members.
Fourth, Damage, what do you think about upgrading Pica's Durability to Mountain level, which scales to Zoro? With the current state of the arc the scaling is kinda closed but it makes more sense that Pica is only as good in attack with enough stone, but he's still able to generate that energy without strain or damage from using it.
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- #46
I agree with leaving Whole Cake Island ratings for a separate discussion.
I don't think we can scale Pica's durability to his ability to shift the landscape of Dressrosa. It's not as if he is putting physical effort into moving the palace or the Flower Hill around; it is a function of his Devil Fruit.
Much like how Devil Fruit usage doesn't typically drain a persons stamina (with a couple notable exceptions) I don't think Pica's physical AP or durability is involved with his stone golems. Pica doesn't generate a certain level of energy inside his body, tank it then release it into the stone.
I think we can scale Pica's base AP and durability to Zoro's sword-slashes which Pica could survive, but Zoro's AP should be derived from his City level calc.
I don't think we can scale Pica's durability to his ability to shift the landscape of Dressrosa. It's not as if he is putting physical effort into moving the palace or the Flower Hill around; it is a function of his Devil Fruit.
Much like how Devil Fruit usage doesn't typically drain a persons stamina (with a couple notable exceptions) I don't think Pica's physical AP or durability is involved with his stone golems. Pica doesn't generate a certain level of energy inside his body, tank it then release it into the stone.
I think we can scale Pica's base AP and durability to Zoro's sword-slashes which Pica could survive, but Zoro's AP should be derived from his City level calc.
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I was trying to avoid a downgrade to 7-A. Now that a couple calcs are reduced its obviously the only option. I do not think Luffy qualifies as "at least" though unless we also give Duffy the same.
If we're switching the focus to Dress then Cin's comments would probably be helpful.
If we're switching the focus to Dress then Cin's comments would probably be helpful.
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The stone isn't shifting by some sort of magical method. The DF are directly tied to the mastery and power of the user. It's no hax at all like Law's fruit but raw power that moves the golem.
DF's don't drain the stamina. The only exception I could think of is Law's fruit which, as I said above, works in a very different way than the rest of the fruits so that fruit's feats are dismissed because hax (which is sad because it has a 5 GT feat but I digress). Pica's fruit is like any other fruit, and in the same way Fujitora pulls a certain amount of energy to atract meteorites, Pica uses a certain amount of energy to shift the landscape.
The only moment when Pica is 7-A in AP is with Golem Form, but that ignores Newton' Third Law. The fact that you don't think he's generating that amount of energy while he shifts the landscape isn't an argument.
If the DF has some standard potency from the very beginning then people like Perospero would be able to generate candy strong enough to withstand G3 Luffy's attacks after eating the fruit. DF's are easy to learn, hard to perfect (some cases not tho).
Instead of thinking that trying to manipulate more energy than you can would drain the stamina, is more like he couldn't even if he try because it needs more training.
DF's don't drain the stamina. The only exception I could think of is Law's fruit which, as I said above, works in a very different way than the rest of the fruits so that fruit's feats are dismissed because hax (which is sad because it has a 5 GT feat but I digress). Pica's fruit is like any other fruit, and in the same way Fujitora pulls a certain amount of energy to atract meteorites, Pica uses a certain amount of energy to shift the landscape.
The only moment when Pica is 7-A in AP is with Golem Form, but that ignores Newton' Third Law. The fact that you don't think he's generating that amount of energy while he shifts the landscape isn't an argument.
If the DF has some standard potency from the very beginning then people like Perospero would be able to generate candy strong enough to withstand G3 Luffy's attacks after eating the fruit. DF's are easy to learn, hard to perfect (some cases not tho).
Instead of thinking that trying to manipulate more energy than you can would drain the stamina, is more like he couldn't even if he try because it needs more training.
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Hmm, well, the only character it would affect is Zoro's Dressrosa rating, right? I guess it wouldn't be a problem.
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I can make the edits if that all the EBS characters in need of an 'At least' to their ratings. Pre-Luffy is locked so can't do anything.Calaca Vs said:
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I'll ask a staff member to unlock it to make the edits for Luffy's page.
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Btw, regarding Luffy, I think we should start differencing between Luffy with and without hardening, because IMO that would help with the scaling.
Imo: strongest none top exevutive members of Doffys crew<<G2 Luffy without hardening = Chinjao <Buffed Lao G<Top executives<G2 Luffy with hardening< Zoro<<G3 Luffy with hardening.
Imo this difference help some of the problems the scaling had, like G3 and G2 having such a difference in tier. Another problem this fixes is the idea that Luffy shouldnt be that weaker that Zoro and Sanji, while at the same time having none top executive level characters giving problems to characters who scale to G2 Luffy like Chinjao, Bartolomeo and Cavendish.
Imo: strongest none top exevutive members of Doffys crew<<G2 Luffy without hardening = Chinjao <Buffed Lao G<Top executives<G2 Luffy with hardening< Zoro<<G3 Luffy with hardening.
Imo this difference help some of the problems the scaling had, like G3 and G2 having such a difference in tier. Another problem this fixes is the idea that Luffy shouldnt be that weaker that Zoro and Sanji, while at the same time having none top executive level characters giving problems to characters who scale to G2 Luffy like Chinjao, Bartolomeo and Cavendish.
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His profile would become a mess if we add the with and w/o Haki for every Gear.
The only thing I have to say about that is that Luffy w/o Haki is weaker than a Red Hawk, considering his Gigant Pistol wasn't able to break Perospero's Candy Wall while Red Hawk could. So yeah, Luffy w/o Haki is even weaker than G2+Haki but adding more ratings is unnecessary IMO.
But if it helps to the scaling I agree to make the difference, just not adding to Luffy's profile since it'll turn it into a mess. Remember that we have two profiles now to avoid that.
The only thing I have to say about that is that Luffy w/o Haki is weaker than a Red Hawk, considering his Gigant Pistol wasn't able to break Perospero's Candy Wall while Red Hawk could. So yeah, Luffy w/o Haki is even weaker than G2+Haki but adding more ratings is unnecessary IMO.
But if it helps to the scaling I agree to make the difference, just not adding to Luffy's profile since it'll turn it into a mess. Remember that we have two profiles now to avoid that.
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Calaca is right, we can't differentiate between Haki and no Haki on the profiles.
We should assume Haki is being used to determine the ratings.
Zoro's City level calc for example is a feat done with Haki.
Which is part of the reason why I don't believe Pica's durability should scale to his Stone Manipulation.
We should assume Haki is being used to determine the ratings.
Zoro's City level calc for example is a feat done with Haki.
Which is part of the reason why I don't believe Pica's durability should scale to his Stone Manipulation.
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I dont think it will be that much of a problem, something like "Low 7-B in base, higher with gears, Likely 7-A with hardened G2/G3 doesnt look that bad.
Edit:
I am not talking about asuming Haki, I agree with the asumsion that they always use it, I am talking about the difference with normal Haki and hardening, which it exists, Pica was able to mantained a fight with Zoro, even tanking at least one of his attacks, but when Zoro used hardening Pica got one shoted.
Imo for the sake of being as precise and accurate as posible with the profiles we ahould add the difference between the 2.
Edit:
I am not talking about asuming Haki, I agree with the asumsion that they always use it, I am talking about the difference with normal Haki and hardening, which it exists, Pica was able to mantained a fight with Zoro, even tanking at least one of his attacks, but when Zoro used hardening Pica got one shoted.
Imo for the sake of being as precise and accurate as posible with the profiles we ahould add the difference between the 2.
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If you read the scene for the feat, you'll notice that the Haki isn't to enhance his attack but avoid damaging the swords. That's why Mihawk's flashback is a thing. Zoro's concern is to not damage the swords so at most we can say that Zoro couldn't launch attacks that strong without scratching the blades.
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Armament Haki increases your ap. They're clading themselves in armour.
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Yes, but the whole scene is made to let you know that Haki is necesary to protect the swords more than increase Zoro's power.
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His AP is irrelevant. In the whole fight he stomped Pica with no effort, and the only reason to use Haki is that the swords might not stand the damage it'd give such slashes.
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Doflamingo: Mountain level, likely higher with Awakening (Survived Aokiji's casual attack)
Trafalgar Law: Mountain level (Scaling to Doffy)
Admiral Fujitora: Mountain level, up to Island level via meteors (Scaling to Doffy & his own City level+ calc)
Hawkins: Mountain level (Scaling to Law)
Dressrosa Arc Zoro: At least City level, possibly Mountain level (His own calc & scaling to Pica's Golems)
Wano Arc Zoro: Mountain level (Scaling to Hawkins)
Sabo: City level+ (His own calc)
Burgess: Likely City level+ (Scaling to Sabo)
I'm not expecting 100% consensus here but would people be willing to give this scaling a try and see where it leads?
Trafalgar Law: Mountain level (Scaling to Doffy)
Admiral Fujitora: Mountain level, up to Island level via meteors (Scaling to Doffy & his own City level+ calc)
Hawkins: Mountain level (Scaling to Law)
Dressrosa Arc Zoro: At least City level, possibly Mountain level (His own calc & scaling to Pica's Golems)
Wano Arc Zoro: Mountain level (Scaling to Hawkins)
Sabo: City level+ (His own calc)
Burgess: Likely City level+ (Scaling to Sabo)
I'm not expecting 100% consensus here but would people be willing to give this scaling a try and see where it leads?
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Only ones I do not agree with are Fugi, Sabo, & Burgees. Near as I can tell there is no reason to give him mountain level, let alone at least. You missed explaining that one for some reason.
City level +, possibly Mountain level (Scaling to other Admirals); Island level ED vi ameteors.
City level +, possibly Mountain level (Scaling to other Admirals); Island level ED vi ameteors.
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@Dr. Fix, Fujitora blocked Doflamingo's kick and Doflamingo acknowledged that Fujitora would be difficult to get rid of. Plus he beat Law and managed to restrain him.
We could rate him as City level+, possibly Mountain level for now though since he hasn't had a lot of serious fights but I get the feeling most people wouldn't be happy with that.
We could rate him as City level+, possibly Mountain level for now though since he hasn't had a lot of serious fights but I get the feeling most people wouldn't be happy with that.
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Sabo is good with 7-B+, Burguess should be Likely 7-B+.
Fujitora is still someone who Doffy sees as a threat. 7-A is good for him right now considering his Ferocious Tiger is almost 7-A.
Fujitora is still someone who Doffy sees as a threat. 7-A is good for him right now considering his Ferocious Tiger is almost 7-A.
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Okay, I've updated that post with your suggestions.
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KobsterHope07/Wiper's_Reject_Dial_Redux
Wiper Reject Dial was re-evaluated at 376.82 Tons of TnT (Multi-City Block level)
Wiper Reject Dial was re-evaluated at 376.82 Tons of TnT (Multi-City Block level)
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Thank you. I'll add it to the OP soon.
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Okay, looks like Dr. Fix, Calaca and I agree on the Dressrosa Arc ratings proposed.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on them?
EDIT: I don't want to rush into making edits, but we shouldn't drag it out any longer if no one disagrees with them.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on them?
EDIT: I don't want to rush into making edits, but we shouldn't drag it out any longer if no one disagrees with them.
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I'm good with the suggestion so far
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Great, that's four in support.
I'll wait a few hours to see if anyone else chimes in, then I'll start with the edits.
I'll wait a few hours to see if anyone else chimes in, then I'll start with the edits.
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Seems good.
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I'm in agreement with the ratings.
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Okay, since we're in agreements I'll begin with the updates.
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Akainu Mountain Level: Defeated Akoiji at the end of their battle, taking his leg in the process.
Jozu Mountain Level: Dealt slight injury to Akoiji
Ace Mountain Level: Melted Akoiji's ice.
Whitebead (Dieing) Mountain level: Survived Akoijis freezing attempt
Kizaru Mountain Level: Damaged Whitebeard
Silvers Mountain Level: Matched Kizaru
Luffy Mountain Level: Scaling to Duffy
Cracker Mountain Level: Scaling to Luffy and Duffy
Smoothie Likely Mountain level: Should not be weaker than Cracker
Katakuri Mountain Level: Scaling to Luffy
Big Mom At Least Mountain Level: Scaling to Luffy's attack. Should be stronger than Katakuri
Squard Mountain Level: Damaged Whitebeard
Vista likely Mountain Level: scaling to Ace and Jozu
Marco likley Mountain Level: Should be comparable to Ace and Jozu
Oars Jr likely Mountain Level: Comparable to Ace and Jozu
Jozu Mountain Level: Dealt slight injury to Akoiji
Ace Mountain Level: Melted Akoiji's ice.
Whitebead (Dieing) Mountain level: Survived Akoijis freezing attempt
Kizaru Mountain Level: Damaged Whitebeard
Silvers Mountain Level: Matched Kizaru
Luffy Mountain Level: Scaling to Duffy
Cracker Mountain Level: Scaling to Luffy and Duffy
Smoothie Likely Mountain level: Should not be weaker than Cracker
Katakuri Mountain Level: Scaling to Luffy
Big Mom At Least Mountain Level: Scaling to Luffy's attack. Should be stronger than Katakuri
Squard Mountain Level: Damaged Whitebeard
Vista likely Mountain Level: scaling to Ace and Jozu
Marco likley Mountain Level: Should be comparable to Ace and Jozu
Oars Jr likely Mountain Level: Comparable to Ace and Jozu
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Absolutely nobody is going to agree to that scaling.
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Especially if you're still holding Kaido to being Island level - since I notice you didn't mention him in that list.
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Being honest, I do think that the admirals should scale to Fuji's meteors. The strongest attacks of the other admirals aren't weaker than the strongest attack of Fuji.
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