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One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #5

Does nobody care about fallacies any more? Saying that they absolutely have to scale to an attack that they has no interraction with just because you can't believe otherwise is bad reasoning. Besides, as you yourself said, Kaido already scales above it. So scaling him just to the meteor would be a downgrade.

@Cin; I didn't say it was confirmed. I'm just saying it's as likely as any other theory.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Rin; nobody is saying Fujitora is the strongest character in One Piece.

Zunisha's calc is actually above Fujitora's biggest meteorite.

Nobody said Fujitora could one-shot the Yonkou either. Not scaling them to the meteor feat does not imply that.

This has nothing to do with any other verse's meteor feats. Nobody is using the Argument from Incredulity fallacy to justify those.

I don't know how I'm supposed to explain this to you better...
Click to expand...


1: No? It isn't? Fujitora's meteorite feat is going to change with the Dressrosa size calc along with the fact that's it'll change a lot once we get our planet size settled. You can't use the current meteorite feat to as a counter argument.


2: It does indeed imply that. The actual value for Fujitora's meteorite would be around High 6-C taking the size of Dressrosa and the planet into consideration. Currently they scale to 28 Gigatons, a meteorite would indeed one shot them at this level. Not scaling them to the meteorite implies that they can't dish out the same type of damage, or even take damage on that level whenever we have characters who are much stronger than Fujitora himself.


3: There are plenty of main verses that scale characters to meteorites despite never interacting with them. It's called simple power scaling, to assume that a character with Fujitora's standing in the verse is stronger than the Yonko and past Admirals makes zero sense. You can attempt to call it a fallacy if you want but we both know that makes no sense and goes against the concept of power scaling, especially whenever we have multiple pieces of information that indicate that the Yonko and Admirals scale above Fujitora even with his Devil Fruit powers. Again, need I remind you that nobody agreed with you on the previous two Fujitora meteorite threads? You were the only person who went with not scaling them to the meteorites. If you disagree then you can make a CRT about it. Because as far as I'm concerned the scaling method was accepted already by users and multiple staff members.


Edit: Since Matthew has a basic understanding of how power scaling works I'll ask for his opinion on this issue.
 
1) Well, that's assuming that Dressrosa's size changes. It might not.

2) Well, assuming it is actually rated that highly. It might not be calced that high or it could potentially be an outlier due to the lack of supporting feats.

3) Usually there are reasons like an energy system in place and characters having higher energies than each other. Powerscaling in series is best done with actual feats and reliable statements. We have neither of these for assuming anyone can just stand there and tank a meteor...

It's fine if you want to make stuff up with everyone else and say that Akainu can tank a meteor to the face; I'm just saying it's an incredible leap of logic to say that because Akainu is one rank higher than Fujitora in the marines that he automatically scales to literally anything that Fujitora is capable of with his unique powerset.

It's like you're assuming if they ever had a fight that Fujitora would just bring down his biggest meteor on top of Akainu and logically Akainu has to completely withstand it... despite never being hinted in the series.
 
You might both want to calm down a bit.Things look like they're getting heated and tbh there's no reason to discuss high 6-C right now.
 
1: It most likely will considering that Calc members prefer my method so far. Regardless Calaca is gonna make a new Dressrosa Calc so it'll change regardless.


2: The Jump from 6-C to High 6-C wouldn't be an outlier. It's a relatively small jump, you can't simply dismiss a higher feat like that. If it's Large Country to small country you'd have a point but I doubt it'll be that higher considering the change in the planet size and the Dressrosa size.


3: Assumptions, no, most of them don't use energy systems. And if we're playing that game Akainu is literally confirmed to have the strongest Offensive Devil Fruit. He'd literally scale with just this alone.
 
Dr.Fix said:
You might both want to calm down a bit.Things look like they're getting heated and tbh there's no reason to discuss high 6-C right now.
Click to expand...
I just find it a little frustrating because the topic makes next to no sense to me.

I would totally get it if it was based on a feat or reliable statement but it currently seems too much like speculation.


Personally I'd rather be getting back to deciding the ratings as they should be currently. I still think my proposed list is a fair compromise so far.


EDIT: " And if we're playing that game Akainu is literally confirmed to have the strongest Offensive Devil Fruit. "

Fujitora's Devil Fruit isn't the Power of Meteors. It's just gravity and bringing down a meteor is an application of it; the calcs are for the end product of the meteor hitting the ground, not the energy required to start pulling them down.

Fujitora has displayed several direct attacks with his Devil Fruit powers and they've all been considerably weaker than the meteor calc.
 
Fujitora's Devil Fruit isn't the Power of Meteors. It's just gravity and bringing down a meteor is an application of it; the calcs are for the end product of the meteor hitting the ground, not the energy required to start pulling them down.


It's literally still apart of his Devil Fruit abilities, it being a sub power is a non factor. Fujitora applies the force of his Gravity to the meteorite to pull them down. And he can use said Gravity in combat.
 
Yeah, meteor issue needs another thread. In Bleach and Fairy Tail, the meteors were destroyed but I'm sure we scale meteors in general to comparable or stronger people. Idk, it probably also depends on context and the mechanics of the character's abilities / verse in question.

That said, why's Kaido possibly scaling above Zou? It's stated he's the strongest creature, so he should be stronger.
 
@Rin; the calc is not for the gravity required to start moving the meteors.

It's for the kinetic energy of the meteor hitting the ground.

Meteor's final kinetic energy =/= gravity required to start moving it.

EDIT: I'll see if I can find a way to calc it.
 
@Damage


I'm aware of how the calc works. It still revolves around Fujitora pushing them down towards the earth with his Gravity ability. Via his Devil Fruit, you can't be arguing that Fujitora with his meteorites can be stronger than people like Yonko and Admirals. Again, nobody agreed with you and your idea of scaling so I'm not sure why you keep trying to push it now.


Edit: If I sound hostile or anything I don't mean to give that impression off so my bad.
 
I'm not denying that Fujitora is pulling the meteors down towards the planet.

I just think that this calc - for the kinetic energy of it hitting the planet - is essentially environmental destruction. Fujitora does not cause that exact amount of kinetic energy through his Devil Fruit; it's just the product of the meteorite hitting the ground.

The amount of energy Fujitora has to put into the meteor to move it into Earth's gravity well and out of orbit would be less than that.

There is no logical discrepency between Fujitora himself being personally weaker than Akainu & Kaido, yet still capable of summoning a very destructive meteor.

It's like pushing a boulder off a cliff. You don't scale to the boulder, do you?

EDIT: I don't mean to be hostile either, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning as best I can. Does the above example make sense?
 
I understand and I still disagree with that notion. While it can be considered as Environmental Destruction Fujitora can still use them in combat at a moments notice. Not to mention that he can summon them easily and within seconds, also I'm pretty sure we're getting rid of Environmental Destruction. We've seen Fujitora using them in combat in several occasions. Again, that's a non factor. Fujitora would still need to force the Meteorites down to the Planets Gravity Well with his own Gravity otherwise he wouldn't be able to summon them in the first place.


False Equivalence Fallacy Damage. There's quite a big difference in that and someone summoning a meteorite down with Gravity, said Gravity is from a Devil Fruit ability. At the worst I'm willing to settle for a compromise for the scaling with a "At Least 6-C, possibly || Whatever tier the meteorite is ||"
 
Right; but you're asserting that Fujitora's gravity has to be equal to the kinetic energy of the meteor when it hits the planet.

When in reality it is most likely a lot less than that; as you said, he only needs to bring it to the planet's gravity well. He isn't constantly accelerating it the whole way down.
 
Okay well we're down the rabbit hole now. Ant & Damage long since said not to bring up Dressroasa/Fugi until after the revisions were done but it seems Rin does not want to wait.

For the record Power scaling is not what Rin described. It is the placing of characters without calculations of their own to characters that have their own after the former has proven themselves in a fight against the latter. Scaling characters without feats against another character is the opposite of power scaling.

The exception to this being of course written word that one is superior or at least comparable to another An example being Kaido scaling to Zuu because the narrator confirmed him to be the strongest in the series right now. This is despite not having a feat against the giant elephant himself.

As far as Fugitora is concerned his meteors are textboook case of enviromental destruction (ED). It is not his own energy being assesed in the meteor calc but the impact of the meteor itself which was pulled down in part by the gravity.

Ex: Ferocious tiger can be applied because it's an assesment of only the gravity Fugitora produces and the energy yield given to correspond to AP.

So bottom line ED =/= AP =>Fugi does not scale to the meteors one way or the other, therefore no one who scales to Fugi also scales to the meteors.
 
Damage3245 said:
This is far from all of the characters of course - but I want to know what people think of the list so far?
Click to expand...
Big Mom, Shanks, Old/Prime Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku and Mihawk should be put at 6-C.

It was stated more than enough time that only a yonko can trully challenge another yonko in a equal fight, with the exceptions of people like Garp, Mihawk and possible Sengoku, so i don't think the "Likely" is necessary.

Aokiji, Pre-Timeskip Akainu and Kizaru should be put at Likely 6-C.

Despire be overall weaker than a yonko the admirals are one of the few characters in the series who had the necessary strength to challenge such people, so even if you don't think they are fully 6-C there is no reason to have them at High 7-A.

Gear 4th Luffy and top yonko commanders instead should be put at At least High 7-A, likely 6-C.

For top yonko commanders i mean the ones who had either the feats to prove they're indeed the strongest (like Ace, Marco, Jozu and Vista for fighting the admirals and Mihawk or Jack surviving Zunisha's trunk) or had a title that make it clear they're the top members of their respective crew (like the sweet commanders or the calamities).
 
By the way, I've realized that the calc I made for the Birdcage's durability had a major flaw so I have updated it and hat it evaluated.

The result is now a lot lower than Large Mountain level+.

So Dressrosa arc ratings for some characters will have to be revised.

The gap between the rest of the verse and Zunisha's calcs is growing larger...
 
Well, not exactly outlier but it's funny how the verse is getting more consistent with these revisions.

I'll finish up the calc for the tsunami tomorrow and get it properly evaluated.

Then I'll make a new thread.
 
Seeing as how this has came back to where we were before, I think restricting these threads to the KM and Staff Members is the best option so far.

@Damage Oh, I was about to ask about the energy Fuji should need to pull the meteorite down to Earth but it seems that isn't the same than KE.

But I agree with using the meteorites for scaling purposes. Not only Sakazuki but Shirohige has his own statement but regarding the Paramecia-Type only being his the strongest fruit around. I really think Fuji's meteors aren't that special when it comes to power.

With this being said, I suggest to finish the editions for the Mid-High Tiers and then open a thread to specifically talk about the Top Tiers of the verse. Other way, we will never get this over with.
 
Okay, I thought that handling the Top-Tiers first would have been easier but I was mistaken.

Let's handle the revisions for every other character that is below that.

The sandbox with all the profiles listed has been cut down considerably already.
 
Regard the Mid-High Tiers i think its pretty clear that they're pretty intro 7-A.

Gear 2nd Luffy was able to (more or less) tank Fujitora's Ferocius Tiger, Zoro far stronger than Pica even when using his Devil Fruit power and Sanji should be comparable to Oven as his brother Ichiji (who should had comparable strength) was able to severe wound him.

Golem Pica < Vergo =< Zoro (Dressrosa Arc) = Gear 2nd Luffy (Dressrosa Arc) =< Sanji (Whole Cake Arc) = Ichiji = Oven
 
We don't have a solid basis for Golem Pica < Vergo.

At best we can assume:

Sanji (Punk Hazard Arc) =< Vergo = Pica < Golem Pica < Zoro (Dressrosa Arc).

My opinion based on the list of calcs would be:

Zoro (Dressrosa Arc): At least City level (Daisen calc), likely higher (Has not shown his full strength)

Pica: City level (Could clash with Zoro but was clearly inferior), up to Mountain level with enough stone

Vergo: Likely City level (Should be roughly comparable to Pica)

Smoker: Likely City level (Able to fight evenly with Vergo for a while)
 
I can see Luffy having 7-B+ dura.for tanking the Ferocious Tiger.

Btw re reading some of the dressrosa fights I found this, aparently Chinjao was still weakened for his fight with Luffy.

Also Gladious was able to take an attack from G2 Luffy.
 
@Calaca; what are your thoughts on the ratings for the Dressrosa Saga Mid Tiers?

It seems to me that Pica's AP with Golems depends on how much stone he has available and that there is no reason to scale Vergo to his biggest golem.

So, Vergo and Smoker being Likely 7-B is probably the best rating for them.
 
IMO Pica is a tank. He can generate that much energy without harm but he cannot use it for offensive purposes if he isn't in the Golem Form, meaning that only his Durability in Base should scale to that, not his Human AP.
 
Also regarding Dressrosa G2 Luffy, he shouldnt scale to Dressrosa Zoro, Gladious took one of his attacks with not many problems, Chinjao was having troubles with base Lao G (though Chinjao was tired from his fight with Luffy) and Cavendish also had Troubles with Gladious.

Imo is consistent that characters of the level of G2 Luffy to be trouble with characters who are weaker than the top executives.
 
Ercosore said:
Imo is consistent that characters of the level of G2 Luffy to be trouble with characters who are weaker than the top executives.
Click to expand...
Aren't Gladius and Lao G like the strongest members of Doffy's crew beside the top executives?

They have been treated as fairly strong characters, maybe not as strong as Chinjao but not to the point that they cannot even scale to other characters.

Also Luffy didn't go all out again Gladius, so its not like that prove that Gladius = Gear 2nd Luffy only because he survived one of his attacks.

And for Cavendish it doesn't seen like he had a full match again Gladius, because sooner enough he turned into Hakuba and the fight was interrupted.
 
Gladius was likely going to injure or kill Robin and Cavendish had they not gotten away from his largest explosion. Not to mention, he took a MERE jet pistol, not like Luffy was trying particularly hard to take him down (it was a jet pistol. No haki, no follow-up attack, no stronger attack). It still left him stunned and on the ground for a good while before he got back up and chased after them. If Luffy wanted to, he would've just walked up and finished Gladius off, but he's not that type of character in the slightest.

Cavendish was also worried about being caught up in Gladius' initial explosions, hiding behind Bartolomeo's barrier.

Lao G vs Chinjao, G didn't even hurt Chinjao until he entered his buffed state. Before that, Chinjao dismissed him and was focused on Sai's matter entirely.
 
Yeah, it seems to me that Sai, Gladius, Cavendish, Ideo, etc. are all about Small City level.

After all a mere Gear 2 kick was enough to one-shot Sai as well.
 
Maybe I was downplaying G2 Luffy a bit, but I am not sure how alse we could scale him, I was thinking:

Strongest not top executives<< Chinjao/G2 Luffy/Cavendish<Buffed Lao G<Top executives<Zoro

Chinjao mentioned his fight with Luffy tired him up, so its likely that a not tired Chinjao wouldn't had gotten one shotted, then again he didnt seemed tired enough to make that much of a difference.

On another topic, has anyone calced this? It may not be that high, but it could be a supporting feat.
 
Don't forget that Cavendish blocked Old Chinjao's headbutt with one arm and also deflected Doflamingo's Bullet Strings he was trying to kill Law with. So he wouldn't be just Small City level.

I've been unsure about this, but during the fight against Sugar's Headcracker Dolls wouldn't Cavendish scale at all to Luffy? Luffy immediately resorted to using a Gear 2 attack to damage it, and Cavendish damaged it just as easily right after.

@CinCameron20 What is your take on Bastille's quote about Cavendish/Hakuba: "He's a genius with the sword to begin with. And Hakuba is twice the fighter Cavendish is" ?
 
Personally I'm most eager if the Knockup Stream is ever calced and to a lesser extent the Whole Cake Island feats I posted earlier since I don't see them going past supporting feat
 
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