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My issue is that I don't think we should backscale half of the verse from the God Tiers, but if you do go down this path of scaling than there are way more characters that you have to include.
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One Piece: Oh shit, Giant Hands and Flaming Feet actually do be strong?
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
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- #42
Well then we include them, it's very clear from Oda himself that Gear 3rd Luffy and Diable Jambe scale to Big Mom, so yeah, I'll stop dancing around it and say it effects a decent amount of characters, a bunch of characters getting upgraded by this doesn't make it wrong
If characters have the feats that scales them to Gear 3rd Luffy and Diable Jambe Sanji, then they would scale
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The verse's God Tiers are not currently built on actual feats for scaling. This is the scaling chain being presented:
Roger does not have actual feats of matching Whitebeard's Devil Fruit head-on. No actual Country level feats there.
Kaido does not have actual feats of matching Shanks. It's just being assumed that his two-handed swing in base form is equal to Shanks clashing with Old Whitebeard.
There are many assumptions at the root of this scaling chain for me to be totally comfortable with upgrading several more characters to this level.
We're proposing backscaling Whole Cake Island arc Luffy and Sanji to be 1/4 of Gol D. Roger and Prime Whitebeard, strongest pirates ever, because they had one clash with Big Mom when she was aiming for Reiju?
We have a lot more feats and actual fights for the majority of the Post-Timeskip characters who are much more consistently varying from City level to Mountain level. I think it is inconsistent for all of these characters to be Small Country level or Small Country level+.
Roger does not have actual feats of matching Whitebeard's Devil Fruit head-on. No actual Country level feats there.
Kaido does not have actual feats of matching Shanks. It's just being assumed that his two-handed swing in base form is equal to Shanks clashing with Old Whitebeard.
There are many assumptions at the root of this scaling chain for me to be totally comfortable with upgrading several more characters to this level.
We're proposing backscaling Whole Cake Island arc Luffy and Sanji to be 1/4 of Gol D. Roger and Prime Whitebeard, strongest pirates ever, because they had one clash with Big Mom when she was aiming for Reiju?
We have a lot more feats and actual fights for the majority of the Post-Timeskip characters who are much more consistently varying from City level to Mountain level. I think it is inconsistent for all of these characters to be Small Country level or Small Country level+.
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You know with all the vsdebates where i went against one piece fans i forgot i am a fan of one piece.
I agree with the upgrade. It seems more consistent than what we have rn.
Either way they're gonna get nerfed to 7-B within 2 weeks
and then buffed to 5-B on the third week
I agree with the upgrade. It seems more consistent than what we have rn.
and then buffed to 5-B on the third week
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Yes... You're acting like that isn't consistent, in WCI, Luffy is directly fighting Yonko and Yonko Commanders, the immediate arc afterwards, Luffy and Sanji are fighting the Yonko and Yonko Commanders again, the Yonko are not untouchable Gods at all, Gear 3rd Luffy and Diable Sanji being Low 6-B is completely consistent, not to mention they're 6-B in Wano anyways
You seem to take issue with the gaps between characters being 1000x and then also take issue with backscaling characters from a single calc, so you have conflicting viewpoints here, you can't have your cake and eat it too, why you believe it makes sense for these guys to be 1000 of times weaker than the Yonko is beyond me when we clearly see even without getting stronger at the beginning of the timeskip, Gear 3rd and Gear 4th Luffy are doing well against Yonko and their Commanders
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Those Yonko Commanders are scaling from Luffy in the first place. They can't be used to support his rating.
Which doesn't apply to the earlier versions of Luffy and Sanji.
Sure. That's why I think they're a lot lower than their current rating.
I would much rather downgrade Big Mom's Striking Strength and rate Big Mom and Kaido on their actual feats in the arc than in scaling them to Shanks, Gol. D Roger and Whitebeard.
If we're talking about consistency then why is it that the highest calc in the entire verse is going to be used for the ratings of half the verse?
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I can make a CRT right now about the god tiers if that's such a prevalent issue
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Given that half the verse will end up being almost as strong as the God Tiers, maybe that'd be good.
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That's just your personal belief speaking, what do you mean that vast majority of the characters are consistently City level to mountain level? It's only thanks to downgrading Dressrosa to smaller and lower than a town that "it's consistent" despite the fact it's blatantly wrong and goes against Oda's intentions & words, but I guess it doesn't matter as long as it fits your narrative of City lvl Dressrosa which everyone disagrees, but wouldn't stop you from making that into reality anyways.
Your entire argument can be summed up to "It's too high, I don't like it", but if it were to be used to downplay more than 50+ characters you would be fine with it. Are we really going to discredit all these Gear 3 and Diablo Jambe feats because it upgrades too many characters? Sorry damage, I strongly disagree with you on this.
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Sounds like you're injecting a few of your own personal beliefs here.
We discredit feats all the time for consistency and scaling issues.
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What concerns me is that I provide proof from Oda himself that Luffy and Sanji are near the Yonko as early as Dressrosa and instead of scaling Luffy and Sanji to them, Damage suggest downgrading the Yonko in their entirety to 1000 of times weaker than Whitebeard, which makes zero sense at all considering that so many people fought and matched Whitebeard in Marineford, not to mention them having many statements and evidence that make them on the same level as Whitebeard and Roger...
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Consistency doesn't just mean; "Luffy has a feat of punching Big Mom's punch. No antifeats for Gear 3 exist."
It also means seeing what other characters scale to, how strong the calcs are from other characters scaling to them. There are a lot more calcs that suggest the power of many of the characters scaling here is a lot lower than Low 6-B. So if we have many calcs versus one much bigger calc... how is the one bigger calc consistent?
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Sanji was barely above G2 back in Dressrosa and FMI, but in WCI he gets a quite a few G3 level feats.
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Non-existent Scaling issues you mean. Discrediting feats without an apparent reason doesn't always works here, Damage. Surely, you are aware that this is an indexing wiki & debate wiki, if you like it or not, we are not going to discredit these feats.
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God tier CRT in the works -_-
Eminiteable
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I agree that the current justification for Kaido scaling to Shanks is inaccurate, but even then if you remove that there's still plenty of scaling that still puts both Big Mom and Kaido at that value.
So I don't agree with this.
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The scaling issues would be a lot clearer if everyone who is actually being proposed to be upgraded was displayed in the OP.
We're talking about an upgrade from Mountain level (where the characters should be instead of the current Large Mountain level on the profiles due to the CRT not being opened yet) to Small Country level for several characters.
If all of these supposedly Small Country level characters have more consistent feats & calcs around Mountain level, then why would I be happy about upgrading them all to Small Country level?
This is like backscaling Roshi's Moon level feat in Dragon Ball to say that every early Dragon Ball character is Multi-Continent to Moon level.
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I want to see how far you'll take this backscaling. Please list every character that is going to be upgraded to Small Country level or Small Country level+.
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Before that, we need to agree Gear 3rd Luffy and Diable Jambe Sanji scale to Big Mom in a capacity
Like they flat out do from Oda himself, it’s not “Well the validity of them scaling depends on whether or not this effects a lot of characters”
The validity is that they scale and anyone else who backscales is just a biproduct, I only wanted to scale Late WCI Sanji to this, but now you’re saying there is no Late WCI Sanji and it effects everyone
So yeah, you aren’t actually refuting anything I’m saying, what needs to be settled first is that we agree Gear 3rd Luffy and Diable Jambe Sanji scale to Big Mom
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It's like every time I open this wiki people got new opinions on scaling.
We've discussed this already in the last scaling CRT.
Early Timeskip Sanji and Late WCI Sanji are 2 completely different people miles apart in AP
We've discussed this already in the last scaling CRT.
Early Timeskip Sanji and Late WCI Sanji are 2 completely different people miles apart in AP
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A lot of the contents of the OP aren't something that needs refuting.
Saying "Gear 3 Luffy fought Katakuri and Cracker who are Yonkou Commanders so these aren't anti-feats" isn't something that can be addressed really... These characters are getting their scaling from Luffy in the first place.
The Wano portion I did address.
The actual issue though, which is "Do we upgrade all of these characters based on the feat" is a bit different to "Did the feat actually happen?"
Yes, the feat happened. Luffy and Sanji hit Big Mom as she went to punch to hit Reiju. Agreeing the feat exists though does not mean automatically agreeing to upgrading the characters plus everyone else scaling to them.
My issue is whether it is truly consistent or fitting with the rest of the characters if we upgrade them to Low 6-B. To make a proper judgement of that, I need to see everyone who this is being suggested to apply to.
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This CRT serves one purpose, to make sure we acknowledge that Gear 3rd Luffy and Sanji scale to Big Mom
Any scaling afterwards can be decided in the main Post-TS CRT, there's no way I'm letting this feat get negged just because it upgrades a bunch of character
Any scaling afterwards can be decided in the main Post-TS CRT, there's no way I'm letting this feat get negged just because it upgrades a bunch of character
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The CRT can't just serve two characters though given that it is proposing to upgrade multiple characters. If it is accepted that the feat exists for scaling the two of them, but we don't change everybody's ratings until we start the full Post-Timeskip scaling thread which looks at all of the calcs affecting all of the characters as a whole, then that's fine.
I'm not agreeing though to upgrading the characters right away based just on the existence of the feat itself.
I'm not agreeing though to upgrading the characters right away based just on the existence of the feat itself.
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I don't plan to apply changes yet, I know for a fact that there's more to be said
All this CRT is made to do is conclude without a shadow of a doubt that Gear 3rd Luffy and Late WCI Diable Jambe Sanji scale to 1/4 of Big Mom, it is directly supported by Oda's exact words that is what needs to be used, anyone else thats scales to these two is a mere biproduct that wouldn't not change that scaling
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Okay
I wanted to NOT implement this in all actuality because I liked the consistency we had and I don't like higher tiers for the sake of higher tiers, but the arguments I'm seeing are annoying me and irritating my soul.
I didn't want to initially support this CRT. In fact I was supposed to be the one to drop it, but I didn't like it because it didn't feel right.
Now I don't care. @DemonGodMitchAubin, gg
Feats of Others Scaling to Higher Tiers
X Drake, Urouge, Hawkins, and Apoo all surviving and staying conscious from attacks (kicks specifically) from Kizaru.Jinbe with Fishman Karate and most likely Busoshoku blocking a punch from Akainu
Jinbe taking a sword strike from Big Mom (with Napoleon and Prometheus) w/Shark Skin Busoshoku Koka and required her to apply more force to her strike.
Marineford Crocodile, who's around the level of Doffy, taking a Jozu tackle
Doflamingo being able to hold Jozu down with his strings
Doflamingo surviving Aokiji's passive ice freeze
Luffy and Sanji countering a punch from Big Mom
Gear 4th Luffy requiring Big Mom to use Busoshoku Koka to block his punch instead of just casually noselling his attack
Castle Bege taking several hits from Big Mom
Reiju (despite of her fire resistance) taking a hit from Big Mom
Judge surviving a thunderbolt from Big Mom and getting up to fight again later for the rest of the arc
Everybody here scales to (or someone scales to them) in AP or Durability. Proof?
Proof
How many people scale to Doflamingo? Law and Hawkins (who backscales from Kizaru), and Zoro scales from Hawkins and Issho scales above/to Zoro.Jinbe's fishman Karate around the range of others in the verse like Luffy.
Judge who directly scales to Sanji since Sanji can bruise him with a haki infused kick.
Urouge who lost to Cracker and is comparable/superior to Snack.
A Method of Scaling
I'll copy and paste from my old scaling documentSo since we keep pushing this agenda of ignoring feats or letting people have a random key or form that is a billion times stronger than anything else they can produce, here is the consistency that everyone wanted.
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I love you King
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You love it?
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Forgive me for having a shred of doubt in my heart when I see proposals that will radically change the entire verse and make even more characters all end up scaling to the highest calc in the verse.
Some people don't have a problem with that, and that's fine. Everyone sees things differently. But I'm allowed to have reservations against drastic proposals when the majority of calcs and feats (the non-powerscaling kind of feats) don't necessarily agree with the conclusion being proposed.
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You're not not allowed to disagree. I never insinuated that.
I'm just saying that the disagreeal was the conduit for me reverting back to agreeing
I'm just saying that the disagreeal was the conduit for me reverting back to agreeing
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I don't see how wanting to look at all of the calcs together as a whole instead of automatically agreeing to the upgrades would make you change your mind.
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It's not that
It's the lack of information (not dissing anyone, just saying there's a lot that's unannounced) of feats and narrative in the story that shows that there isn't much of a gap.
Me withholding that information isn't fair to the OP, especially when there's truth in the OP
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OH SO? WHENEVER IT'S AN UPGRADE THEN IT IS A BIG ISSUE? Honestly, Damage. I really want you to look at your own Dressrosa CTR/Revision and say that again, because your CTR is radically changing more than 60% of One piece characters.
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That's because the majority of CRT's I've come across are almost always upgrades. Hence when I act as the Devil's Advocate, the majority of the time it is going to be against upgrades.
If somebody proposed changing Luffy to Town level, you can bet I'll be taking an issue with that too.
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Then don't use that argument if you are doing exactly the same thing. Honestly, I can't believe what you are saying.
You are misunderstanding me here, neither sides are fine, but ever heard of the phrase "practice what you preach" if your only argument for disagreeing with the OP is "big changes" then don't act surprised that people are getting irritated at your low-ball ideology.
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Big changes aren't the issue. Big changes that aren't supported by all of the other Post-Timeskip calcs thus far is a bit of an issue to me.
If Whitebeard's calc was Continent level, would you be okay with all of the Post-Timeskip characters being 1/4 of Continent level?
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