- 8,857
- 5,697
The anime version supports this, the cloud was already being electrified and stuff and zala looked back at it when it's still charging up, after that she was attacked.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
One Piece: Massive Speed Revision, Part 1: Pre Timeskip
- Status
- 31,596
- 28,067
I think I'm missing something. Nami swinging her arms is in both manga and anime. Can you link me to the specific part of the clip you mean?
She didn't "not choose to move". She couldn't move because she wasn't fast enough to avoid it.
What you say there for the manga "she noticed it during the flash" is exactly what I'm saying. Her head is already turned there as the Flash happens and the lightning starts moving towards her.
Yeah. I don't see a single lightning bolt there. If Zala has turned her head in the timespan of the lightning crossing from the clouds to her face; then with her head turned there the lightning should be visible next to her.
I don't know. Can I? Any additional proof I offer appears to not be accepted.
It's the same visual effect as the charged-up cloud that Nami sends into the main cloud. It just shows that the lightning is ready to fire from it.
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #243
Nvm I was thinking during the "TEMPO" portion
So she just stayed there and let the cloud electrify
The cloud must've electrified at mach 2000 if she can't take a step back
Neoooooooooo
You're saying she turned her head over before the bolt of lightning even left the cloud, and she just let it hit her
Damage we are at the EDGE OF THE CAMERA even her hair gets cut out.
if a cloud is a 3x3 ft^2 cloud and the lightning is in the middle of the cloud, you won't see it there.
"then with her head turned there the lightning should be visible next to her." no it should not, because I calced the distance from the cloud to her head, not from the 3rd scan where we see like 5% of the cloud.
- 31,596
- 28,067
The cloud had already begun being charged before she even turned her head. She simply didn't notice it in time.
By the time she turned her head around and saw the electrified cloud it was too late.
Characters aren't perfect robots that respond to things as soon as they register in their perception; they've still got to process and react to what they're seeing, and factors like shock & surprise can slow them down.
She could have just seen it a split-second before the lightning began, and even if she knew what she looking at I don't think she'd expect a point-blank lightning bolt to shoot from it.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
It's always best to use the manga if you want proof.
The manga shows differently; when the thunder ball thing is sent the lightning is instantly formed.
To date the charge up period has never shown an actual lightning bolt in the cloud to my knowledge, the flash and actual visual evidence of the lightning bolt being formed indicates that she reacted to the actual bolt of lightning.
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #246
She saw the flash.
Of the cloud.
As it was being shot out.
The anime added a scene.
We don't see this in the manga.
The anime did not support it.
It added new scenes.
Why in hell would Oda draw her not looking at the electrified cloud but looking and noticing it AFTER THE FLASH IS PRODUCED.
This is ridiculous atp.
The lightning shoots out lightning which produces a flash.
We see her during 2 instances.
1 instance she's not looking.
Next instance she's looking.
It's that simple
- 31,596
- 28,067
Which was after her head was already turned.
I'm not relying on the scenes the anime added. I'm relying on the scenes that seem to line up with the manga.
She doesn't notice it after the flash is produced. Her head is turned as the flash is produced.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
How do you know that?
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #249
You're saying she looked before the flash was produced when the only time we see her look in the manga is after the flash is produced.
You're not relying on anything valid.
Based on an additional assumption
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #250
Cause the anime shows her looking 8 times at a lightning bolt and not having the common sense to finish her attack or even move out the way
- 31,596
- 28,067
I'm relying on the exact same thing you're relying on.
When we have two seemingly valid interpretations, then we look for additional context to support either side. The additional context in this case shows the cloud being electrified and does not show lightning bolts being sent Zala's way until after she already turned her head. Just like how it appears in the manga to me.
Actually the 8 times are her looking around. She doesn't actually fully turn around until after that, and that's when she sees the cloud.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
Why are we using the anime over the manga?
- 31,596
- 28,067
Because that's how it appears in both the manga and anime.
We don't see the Flash! happen with her already facing Nami then after that she turns her head.
Please don't strawman me. I'm using both the manga and the anime.
Looking for additional context from the anime does not make this Manga vs. Anime.
I know you don't mean any offense but after all this arguing, this is like being given a message that says "You clearly didn't read it." or "Can you even read?" I don't want to be misconstrued.
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #254
With all due respect, I'm starting to question if yours is a valid interpretation.
I don't think I've ever canonically seen a cloud from nami "charge up".
Usually the instance its affected, it shoots lightning. The anime adds this "electrified" stuff
This doesn't matter at all.
She still moved several times in the timeframe it takes the cloud to charge up, which is... frankly ridiculous.
For support for an apparently ambiguous feat
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
The manga already clears this up here:
Wasn't this statement made literally years after this scene was done, in which Oda himself made statements on how the anime is treated as canon compared to the manga.
- 31,596
- 28,067
To be fair this is the very first time that the Thunder Tempo has ever been drawn. Oda could easily have changed his presentation of it after this / over the years.
It being ridiculous is not a good reason for it to be unacceptable.
It's equally ridiculous that she is capable of moving her head around hundreds of times the speed of sound to catch sight of some lightning in her face but she barely did anything while Nami was actually launching the attack to charge the cloud.
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #257
Yes it is
So if I say Luffy is ten trillion times the speed of light with decent proof I can get it accepted and you'd have no issues with it?
Things being ridiculous have been huge restrictions on this verse even since before I've joined, from 3-A BB to 200 km Dressrosa, or your argument yesterday about how haki negging immortality wouldn't be accepted because it's ridiculous.
Now being ridiculous isn't good enough for it to be denied. Not really.
She was talking.
You act like was in slow motion.
She was talking then started to attack after Nami threw the ball, then as the lightning came down she looked at it.
Last edited:
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
Alright going back to this, the anime shouldn't be used at all for this. That statement about the anime staff asking Oda for information was made literally over 15 years later from this scene.
And in chapter 194's sbs section (funnily enough directly after the nami fight in question) Oda states he doesn't do much for the anime other than doing original anime only designs for movies and specials. And that he puts his trust in the directors:
And in chapter 194's sbs section (funnily enough directly after the nami fight in question) Oda states he doesn't do much for the anime other than doing original anime only designs for movies and specials. And that he puts his trust in the directors:
- 31,596
- 28,067
KingTempest, let me put it like this:
The calc is based on the movement of the lightning starting at Time 0, and crossing a certain amount of distance which gives you Time 0.0000020478 seconds. That is the time you have for the lightning to go from the cloud to Zala's head.
You're proposing that at Time 0, Zala was facing Nami and didn't begin turning her head until Time 0 had begun and she finished turning her head at Time 0.0000020478 seconds.
In other words, when Zala's head has fully turned 0.220812634 meters, the lightning should already be hitting her face/head.
But I don't see that. I see that Zala's head has already turned as the Flash! signifying the lightning goes off, and there is no evidence of lightning bolts approaching her. You say that we wouldn't see them because of the angle of the manga panel but we don't need most of the cloud to be on-panel to see what is near to Zala's head.
What seems to be the case to me is that Zala's head turned, the Flash! happened and Zala was electrocuted. She didn't turn her head in the exact same timeframe that it took the lightning bolts to travel from the cloud to her head.
The calc is based on the movement of the lightning starting at Time 0, and crossing a certain amount of distance which gives you Time 0.0000020478 seconds. That is the time you have for the lightning to go from the cloud to Zala's head.
You're proposing that at Time 0, Zala was facing Nami and didn't begin turning her head until Time 0 had begun and she finished turning her head at Time 0.0000020478 seconds.
In other words, when Zala's head has fully turned 0.220812634 meters, the lightning should already be hitting her face/head.
But I don't see that. I see that Zala's head has already turned as the Flash! signifying the lightning goes off, and there is no evidence of lightning bolts approaching her. You say that we wouldn't see them because of the angle of the manga panel but we don't need most of the cloud to be on-panel to see what is near to Zala's head.
What seems to be the case to me is that Zala's head turned, the Flash! happened and Zala was electrocuted. She didn't turn her head in the exact same timeframe that it took the lightning bolts to travel from the cloud to her head.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
Alright going back to this, the anime shouldn't be used at all for this. That statement about the anime staff asking Oda for information was made literally over 15 years later from this scene.
And in chapter 194's sbs section (funnily enough directly after the nami fight in question) Oda states he doesn't do much for the anime other than doing original anime only designs for movies and specials. And that he puts his trust in the directors:
So considering this, nothing valid supports the lightning bolt being formed as a charge up period.
Instead we should look to the canon manga:
- 31,596
- 28,067
I'm not arguing in favor of additional non-canon material from the anime. I'm looking at the adaptation of canon material to provide context for something that could be ambiguous.
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #262
Damage,
My calculation is based on a lowball method I and others use for several calcs, calcing the distance she moved and doing it as if they covered that distance before the attack did instead of on the exact same timeframe.
We are given 2 panels in the manga. One where the cloud has lightning coming from it (being apparently charged up) and one where the cloud starts to produce lightning.
In the first panel, Zala is looking down. We have the opacity effect for the thunder balls showing that they traveled. We have the lightning being produced, everything.
In the second panel, Zala is looking at the lightning upwards where the flash is being produced.
The default assumption on that is that when the bolt starts to move, her head starts to move.
Your argument is based on a huge assumption supported by a tertiary scene which adds something not hinted to, not shown, not implied, and not noted at all.
Zala's head turned in your own headcanon, and you're covering it up by saying that the feat is ambiguous and saying that the anime can be used to support it, which it doesn't since it changes the scene up.
The entire scene was changed, making the anime not valid, making your only support moot.
In this case I can use Luffy dodging the lasers in the anime even though there is added scenes (more lasers, more movement from Luffy) all because it can support the apparently ambiguous feat shown.
If so, I'll get to calcing that right away.
My calculation is based on a lowball method I and others use for several calcs, calcing the distance she moved and doing it as if they covered that distance before the attack did instead of on the exact same timeframe.
We are given 2 panels in the manga. One where the cloud has lightning coming from it (being apparently charged up) and one where the cloud starts to produce lightning.
In the first panel, Zala is looking down. We have the opacity effect for the thunder balls showing that they traveled. We have the lightning being produced, everything.
In the second panel, Zala is looking at the lightning upwards where the flash is being produced.
The default assumption on that is that when the bolt starts to move, her head starts to move.
Your argument is based on a huge assumption supported by a tertiary scene which adds something not hinted to, not shown, not implied, and not noted at all.
Zala's head turned in your own headcanon, and you're covering it up by saying that the feat is ambiguous and saying that the anime can be used to support it, which it doesn't since it changes the scene up.
The entire scene was changed, making the anime not valid, making your only support moot.
In this case I can use Luffy dodging the lasers in the anime even though there is added scenes (more lasers, more movement from Luffy) all because it can support the apparently ambiguous feat shown.
If so, I'll get to calcing that right away.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
According to the One Piece page we only use that when quote;
And this was only accepted due to a recent statement stating Oda's involvement in the anime, meanwhile during this feat there is a statement from the author himself stating he has no real involvement, thus there is no reason to interpret lightning being formed as a charge up period when the manga has never shown it as such.
- 31,596
- 28,067
I know what your method is. I don't think it can be used in this circumstance though.
Sorry, but I absolutely disagree for the reasons I've mentioned above.
I'm not accusing you of lying; but you are definitely misrepresenting my argument. It is uncalled for you to resort to "headcanon" accusations when I'm afraid it is equally true of your side.
Please don't act petty like this Tempest, just because I'm bringing up issues with a particular calc.
If your response to me bringing up issues with an MHS calc is "Great, I can use this to calc a higher feat to spite you" then that isn't a good look.
If the manga was clear enough, then we wouldn't have had this whole last page of idscussion.
The "clarification for feats" thing is exactly what I'm doing.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
And regardless it's invalid, we only accept the anime at all due to a statement that the author is involved, during this period he straight up says he's not involved, it cannot be used as a clarification as it's not a valid source.
- 31,596
- 28,067
I agree it's not a valid source for anime-original content; but this is a clarification of a scene that we're both looking at in the manga itself.
If I am to believe that Zala turned her head at exactly the same time as the lightning bolts traveled from the cloud to her head, and this isn't apparent in the manga, then I am going to look at the anime for additional context.
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #267
I'll have to disagree, it's perfectly fine
I'll have to respectfully disagree with your reasoning
My argument is using what we're given and drawing a conclusion from that, repeatedly citing.
Your argument is "Zala turned her head in this frame which isn't even on the page".
You misinterpreted my point completely.
I and several other knowledgeable members have not calced this feat at all because of the inconsistencies brought up by this feat. This feat contradicts canon because of more lasers. This feat contradicts canon because Luffy moved more.
You can check all my calcs and all the calcs I've used for anime additions, pre or post timeskip, and I've specifically ignored that feat. Not because of the high results (which is why I calced FTL+ perception feats), but because of the inconsistencies the anime added.
This is the same exact issue with this calculation and why I haven't resorted to anime for that feat, because the anime adds dozens of more movements which are not hinted to, not shown, not implied, and not noted at all. Zala was not shown to move her head back and forth 8 times. Nami was not shown to say Tempo. Zala actually moved a little, unlike the anime. The cloud was formed above Zala's head in the manga, while in the anime the cloud moved up.
If this is the case, and we can calculate feats like this with huge result changes, then I can get to that.
I don't make spite calcs. Please don't misinterpret my argument, and if that was how it seemed, I apologize.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
Maybe you should read the one piece page:
The only reason scenes like that are accepted is because of the idea Oda approves them, which he didn't for the nami fight via the sbs.
Also like Tempest said the feat in the anime doesn't even match up with the manga:
- 31,596
- 28,067
My main argument is also using what we're given in the manga and drawing a conclusion from that.
Zala's head is already turned in the third panel, seemingly before the lightning approaches her.
It sounds to me like you want to make the calc using only the anime-original material unless I'm misinterpreting it.
I'm not suggesting we make a calc based off of the anime version of the scene for Zala. So it isn't the same circumstance.
The dozens of other movements aren't the focus of this at all. It's specifically the only movement that is relevant, which is Zala looking behind her at the cloud. And I think that is implied in the manga by the 3rd panel.
I apologize too - trying to keep this civil - but my main argument for this is just that the interpretation of the manga scene seems to be incorrect, and that makes the foundation of the calc invalid. The anime depiction of the events does not support the earlier interpretation of the manga.
I'm not trying to argue "Anime > Manga".
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
- 21,494
- 30,831
- Thread starter
- #271
Message my wall when this topic is over. Unfollowing
- 11,881
- 11,243
Why would the manga scene be deemed incorrect? It's the original work of the author.
Why would what the anime does effect anything that happens in the manga? If there are inconsistencies between the anime and the manga, then we obviously go the the manga. We don't use the anime to fact check the manga, it's the other way around.
But by you saying that the manga scene is incorrect and we should follow the anime version, you're basically saying that we should take the anime's version over the manga's.
- 31,596
- 28,067
Don't misquote me. I said:
- 31,596
- 28,067
I'll answer the question if you're genuinely serious but... have you not read any of my earlier posts on this? Here is a good place to start.
- 1,744
- 1,165
Honestly Damage. I genuinely don't see any issues with it, going by this logic we could simply invalid 80% of all calcs and we don't do that.
Eminiteable
He/Him- 7,401
- 6,631
Anyways from what I can tell Damage doesn't actually have any valid support or evidence for his "charge up period" interpretation of the Thunderbolt Tempo attack being formed.
And as said interpretation goes against the other manga instance's of Nami's thunder bolt tempo attack I believe this argument can just be ignored and we can move on, unless Damage has more evidence to offer.
And as said interpretation goes against the other manga instance's of Nami's thunder bolt tempo attack I believe this argument can just be ignored and we can move on, unless Damage has more evidence to offer.
- 18,922
- 13,943
Damage how are you still using the anime when it contradicts many things in that instance and Eminiteable showing proof on author also saying it. Use the manga, you are right now not supposed to even think about the anime...
- 1,744
- 1,165
That or we will ignore him until he decide to provide valid reasons for invalidating this calc.
- Status
