One Piece: Massive Speed Revision, Part 1: Pre Timeskip

[KingTempest]

That doesn't mean the average human in One Piece has ten times higher visual acuity than IRL people, or that these assassins are comparable to fighter pilots under test conditions.

The average human in One Piece outside of the super fodder dodge bullets, can train enough to jump on air, can break huge structures, can breathe under water for several minutes, can fight serious brawls for hours, etc.
One of the fastest humans outside of the blatantly stated superhumans (CP9) can run at 20-25 m/s while the fastest person on our planet can't break 13 m/s. These dudes outrun animals, and training for less than a year can make them FTE.

I think it would be safer to switch over to the 13 ms value for timeframe.

The figure we use doesn't matter to me, it's the reasoning for it. If it's just "too quick", then I disagree.

 

[Damage3245]

It's not because it is "too quick". It's an unnecessary high ball assumption, the actual results don't matter.

If it is necessary, I can make a calc group discussion thread so we can get some more input.

 

[KingTempest]

It's not necessary. We'll use the 13 ms, the reasoning just wasn't convincing

 

[Damage3245]

It's not necessary. We'll use the 13 ms, the reasoning just wasn't convincing

Okay. I'll post a replacement blog soon and get it evaluated quick.

Will move on to the next calc soon.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

@KingTempest, Robin also saved Luffy from Monster Point Chopper's attack while exhausted.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; something seems off with Zoro's section in the sandbox.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; something seems off with Zoro's section in the sandbox.

An issue with the references, fixed

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. Posted my new calc so it'll be evaluated soon.

Doing a write-up for another calc in the sandbox.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Bump​

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

@KingTempest, Robin also saved Luffy from Monster Point Chopper's attack while exhausted.

She could've saved luffy before chopper attacked

 

[Damage3245]

Next calc I want to focus on is the one for Zala / Miss Doublefinger.

The calc is currently assuming that lightning started heading towards Zala, then Zala turned her head before the lightning struck her.

But after taking another look at the page where the feat happened and checking with the anime version of the feat.

It looks more like the cloud became electrified and doesn't start sending the lightning towards Zala until after she turned her head to look at it. Looking at the bottom three panels of the page; the first one is Nami sending the electric charge to the cloud, the second panel is the cloud crackling with lightning and the third panel [after Zala has turned her head] is the Flash! where the lightning begins.

It can be difficult to tell just from the manga version alone, so I looked at the anime version for more context (which we can always look at if manga panels alone can be unclear in what they're showing).

So to sum up; Zala turned her head before the lightning headed towards her, so Zala's speed calc isn't valid.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'm not sure... tho using the anime over the manga is iffy since when it flashed, she turned her head which also makes sense

 

[Damage3245]

@MonkeyOfLife; I'm not using the anime over the manga.

I'm saying that the interpretation of the feat in the calc from the manga does not appear to be correct. The anime is just additional context.

 

[RazumaHiroki]

@MonkeyOfLife; I'm not using the anime over the manga.

I'm saying that the interpretation of the feat in the calc from the manga does not appear to be correct. The anime is just additional context.

Who says the additional context is correct?

 

[Damage3245]

Who says the additional context is correct?

Nobody. We have to judge it ourselves to verify how relevant it is.

All I'm doing is providing my viewpoints to you, and based on both the manga and anime, I don't think the current assumption that Zala only turned her head after the lightning started moving towards her is correct.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Nobody. We have to judge it ourselves to verify how relevant it is.

All I'm doing is providing my viewpoints to you, and based on both the manga and anime, I don't think the current assumption that Zala only turned her head after the lightning started moving towards her is correct.

can you provide the anime clip?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

@MonkeyOfLife; I'm not using the anime over the manga.

I know but it seems that way since we use the manga first and then the anime if necessary

I'm saying that the interpretation of the feat in the calc from the manga does not appear to be correct.

Maybe but trying to use the anime to debunk the manga isn't really a good way to go about it

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

can you provide the anime clip?

Next calc I want to focus on is the one for Zala / Miss Doublefinger.

The calc is currently assuming that lightning started heading towards Zala, then Zala turned her head before the lightning struck her.

But after taking another look at the page where the feat happened and checking with the anime version of the feat.

It looks more like the cloud became electrified and doesn't start sending the lightning towards Zala until after she turned her head to look at it. Looking at the bottom three panels of the page; the first one is Nami sending the electric charge to the cloud, the second panel is the cloud crackling with lightning and the third panel [after Zala has turned her head] is the Flash! where the lightning begins.

It can be difficult to tell just from the manga version alone, so I looked at the anime version for more context (which we can always look at if manga panels alone can be unclear in what they're showing).

So to sum up; Zala turned her head before the lightning headed towards her, so Zala's speed calc isn't valid.

 

[Damage3245]

can you provide the anime clip?

I did link it above. Here.

Maybe but trying to use the anime to debunk the manga isn't really a good way to go about it

I think you're misunderstanding me.

We're both using the manga here.

And if we're both holding a potentially equally valid view of the manga that requires further elaboration to expand on so we can have a better idea of who is correct... we usually look at the anime. We've done this countless times before, for multiple verses.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

And if we're both holding a potentially equally valid view of the manga that requires further elaboration to expand on so we can have a better idea of who is correct... we usually look at the anime. We've done this countless times before, for multiple verses.

Yes I know but the anime doesn't even show her getting hit by lightning it just cuts I'm not saying what you're saying is wrong but it seems like there are probably other ways to debunk that calc

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Bruh... I agree with damage3245, that calculation is wrong, I could've eaten breakfast in the time it took her to react not to the lightning but to the cloud.

 

[Damage3245]

Yes I know but the anime doesn't even show her getting hit by lightning it just cuts I'm not saying what you're saying is wrong but it seems like there are probably other ways to debunk that calc

Well, the simplest debunk is that from the manga itself we don't see the lightning heading towards her before she turns her head.

The anime is just extra.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Well, the simplest debunk is that from the manga itself we don't see the lightning heading towards her before she turns her head.

Saying that or talking about that more would be better... Just to me it feelt like you were mostly basing it on the anime

 

[Damage3245]

Saying that or talking about that more would be better... Just to me it feelt like you were mostly basing it on the anime

That's why I said this first:

It looks more like the cloud became electrified and doesn't start sending the lightning towards Zala until after she turned her head to look at it. Looking at the bottom three panels of the page; the first one is Nami sending the electric charge to the cloud, the second panel is the cloud crackling with lightning and the third panel [after Zala has turned her head] is the Flash! where the lightning begins.

Then this in case it wasn't enough:

It can be difficult to tell just from the manga version alone, so I looked at the anime version for more context (which we can always look at if manga panels alone can be unclear in what they're showing).

But glad that's cleared up.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Tho I still think the anime contradicts the manga because she turns her head before there were any flash of light

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Tho I still think the anime contradicts the manga because she turn her head before there were any flash of light

No she doesn't the panel where she turns her head, you see the cloud is already lighting up. In the anime it shows that she didn't even see the lightning.

 

[KingTempest]

In the manga we see a spark of lightning in the cloud before she even recognizes the lightning, then as that spark's coming down, she moves her head up.

In the anime we see Nami throw up the lightning then the entire cloud gets electrified, then she forcibly start the attack.

In the manga Nami didn't even know how tf to start the attack, in the anime Zala has a neck issue and she wants to look 8 times at the cloud.

The anime is dead wrong.

 

[KingTempest]

Yall tryna tell me the anime is right in this case when this lady looked at the cloud 8 times and didn't think about moving, and she didn't even start to attack Nami, she's just staying there as if her nerves are already stopped from the lightning.

The anime is dead wrong.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yall tryna tell me the anime is right in this case when this lady looked at the cloud 8 times and didn't think about moving, and she didn't even start to attack Nami, she's just staying there as if her nerves are already stopped from the lightning.

The anime is dead wrong.

Ok but the manga?

 

[KingTempest]

Ok but the manga?

The manga is perfectly fine

 

[Damage3245]

In the manga we see a spark of lightning in the cloud before she even recognizes the lightning, then as that spark's coming down, she moves her head up.

The cloud is sparking, but that's not the spark coming down.

In the anime we see Nami throw up the lightning then the entire cloud gets electrified, then she forcibly start the attack.

It looks to me like the cloud is electrified in the manga too.

In the manga Nami didn't even know how tf to start the attack, in the anime Zala has a neck issue and she wants to look 8 times at the cloud.

I agree Zala looking around eight times is an exaggeration, but the main point is that she turned her head before the attack began moving.

The manga is perfectly fine

We're both using the manga. I just don't see enough evidence that Zala turned her head after the lightning began moving towards her.

 

[KingTempest]

The cloud is sparking, but that's not the spark coming down.

For every showing of Nami's attacks pre Kalifa fight she had no control of the lightning and it was automatically produced as soon as the thunder ball touched the cloud. That's most definitely the spark coming down.

It looks to me like the cloud is electrified in the manga too.

No, the cloud doesn't have lightning in every square inch of the cloud. It has like 2 bolts which have already reached half a meter down.

I agree Zala looking around eight times is an exaggeration, but the main point is that she turned her head before the attack began moving.

Which I disagree with, and if that was the case with this ridiculous scene she would've just moved out of the way or attacked Nami prior to the cloud charging that long, which makes little to no sense that she didn't.

We're both using the manga. I just don't see enough evidence that Zala turned her head after the lightning began moving towards her.

You're using the manga and the anime which added 4 extra scenes in that 1 clip.
1. Her looking back and forth at the cloud
2. Nami actually controlling the cloud
3. Her not attempting to hurt Nami
4. The entire cloud being electrified

 

[Damage3245]

For every showing of Nami's attacks pre Kalifa fight she had no control of the lightning and it was automatically produced as soon as the thunder ball touched the cloud. That's most definitely the spark coming down.

It doesn't look like it to me.

No, the cloud doesn't have lightning in every square inch of the cloud. It has like 2 bolts which have already reached half a meter down.

They don't look like they're going down to Zala to me. It's a sign that the cloud has been electrified.

The actual Flash! of the lightning doesn't occur until the next panel.

Which I disagree with, and if that was the case with this ridiculous scene she would've just moved out of the way or attacked Nami prior to the cloud charging that long, which makes little to no sense that she didn't.

Not a lot makes sense in anime/manga. Talking being a free action is one of those things. Another is the characters not always performing the most optimal move from an out-of-universe perspective. She simply didn't have time to react to the attack since she wasn't expecting the cloud to shoot lightning.

1. Her looking back and forth at the cloud

The anime expanded on her looking back and forth, but it still showed her turning her head fully to look at the cloud which is what I believe she does in the manga.

2. Nami actually controlling the cloud

This isn't part of the dispute for the speed. I just wouldn't consider Nami controlling the cloud to be a factor.

3. Her not attempting to hurt Nami

She doesn't try to hurt Nami in the manga either. She raises her arm up and does nothing for a moment.

4. The entire cloud being electrified

The visuals are a bit different but they're depicting the same thing. The cloud being electrified before the lightning is shot down.

Zala has her head turned before the lightning shoots down.


I can tell you aren't convinced by my objections though, so I don't mind getting some more staff in to investigate the scene and get their input.

 

[KingTempest]

They don't look like they're going down to Zala to me. It's a sign that the cloud has been electrified.

The actual Flash! of the lightning doesn't occur until the next panel.

Fair

Not a lot makes sense in anime/manga. Talking being a free action is one of those things. Another is the characters not always performing the most optimal move from an out-of-universe perspective. She simply didn't have time to react to the attack since she wasn't expecting the cloud to shoot lightning.

She can look at it 8 times but not have time to react to the lightning bolt which apparently had to charge up?

Taking is a free action doesn't excuse stupidity (not directing that towards you btw) or CIS, she would've dodged if she just noticed the thing charging.
And it couldn't be that long if apparently Nami has enough time to swing her attack in the same timeframe after the cloud electrifies.

Nami throws lightning ball in the air
Cloud electrifies
Lightning comes down
Lightning hits Zala

She had all that time and she didn't dodge or block? Nah.

The anime expanded on her looking back and forth, but it still showed her turning her head fully to look at the cloud which is what I believe she does in the manga.

The anime shows her looking prior to the flash, which the manga doesn't show

This isn't part of the dispute for the speed. I just wouldn't consider Nami controlling the cloud to be a factor.

It could be for sure, because then arguments like
"What if Zala saw her move the rod then reacted" or "what if she predicted it off of Nami"

She doesn't try to hurt Nami in the manga either. She raises her arm up and does nothing for a moment.

She raises her arm up in the first panel, the second panel she's striking and she bends down, curves her arm, hunches over, and is about to attack.

The visuals are a bit different but they're depicting the same thing. The cloud being electrified before the lightning is shot down.

The manga shows that as a flash is happening, she turns her head. If this was true, she would've had her head up when the cloud was electrifying on the 2nd panel.

As the cloud is apparently electrifying, she's not looking at it.
When the spark happens, she's looking at it and has the "...".

Makes minimal sense for her to react to the cloud electrifying and not do anything about it.

Zala has her head turned before the lightning shoots down.

That's debatable and the only thing supporting it is the anime, which changes the scene completely

I can tell you aren't convinced by my objections though, so I don't mind getting some more staff in to investigate the scene and get their input.

I don't mind, go ahead

 

[Damage3245]

She had all that time and she didn't dodge or block? Nah.

I do think that is the case. Look at the bottom panels. Nami has enough time to swing her arm and throw an electrified cloud to join with the main cloud behind Zala - without Zala doing nothing other than noticing and going quiet. Zala has enough time to turn her head and react to lightning when it is bearing down on her but doesn't have enough time to do anything but stand frozen while Nami swings her arm?

The anime shows her looking prior to the flash, which the manga doesn't show

I think the manga does show that.

It could be for sure, because then arguments like "What if Zala saw her move the rod then reacted" or "what if she predicted it off of Nami"

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean Zala predicted the lightning strike based off of Nami's movements?

She raises her arm up in the first panel, the second panel she's striking and she bends down, curves her arm, hunches over, and is about to attack.

Sure, but that still shows a failure on her part to react to Nami's movements.

The manga shows that as a flash is happening, she turns her head. If this was true, she would've had her head up when the cloud was electrifying on the 2nd panel.
As the cloud is apparently electrifying, she's not looking at it.
When the spark happens, she's looking at it and has the "...".
Makes minimal sense for her to react to the cloud electrifying and not do anything about it.

To me it looks more like that as the manga shows the flash is happening, her head is already turned to look at it. She would have turned her head in between the cloud becoming electrified on panel 2 and the flash on panel 3.

That's debatable and the only thing supporting it is the anime, which changes the scene completely

The anime adds on to the scene, but it doesn't change the core of it which is that the cloud becomes electrified, Zala turns and looks at it, and then the lightning strikes her afterwards.

Why don't we see any lightning bolts about to hit Zala in the third panel if they're supposedly already on their way down to her from the second panel?

 

[Eminiteable]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but the lightning bolt has already been formed before Zala turns around to react, and as Zala turns around the flash of lightning occurs.

 

[KingTempest]

I do think that is the case. Look at the bottom panels. Nami has enough time to swing her arm and throw an electrified cloud to join with the main cloud behind Zala - without Zala doing nothing other than noticing and going quiet. Zala has enough time to turn her head and react to lightning when it is bearing down on her but doesn't have enough time to do anything but stand frozen while Nami swings her arm?

She raises her arm up in the first panel, the second panel she's striking and she bends down, curves her arm, hunches over, and is about to attack.

She in in the phase of attacking Nami.

She's not stagnant.

She's attacking and the lightning hit her.

I think the manga does show that.

WHERE???

She blatantly isn't looking at the charge of the cloud.
Next she's eyeballing it after the light starts to flash.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean Zala predicted the lightning strike based off of Nami's movements?

I'm saying this is an argument people can use for anime Nami's apparent movement to start the attack

Sure, but that still shows a failure on her part to react to Nami's movements.

What movements? The anime only ones when she swung her arm, which wasn't in the manga??

To me it looks more like that as the manga shows the flash is happening, her head is already turned to look at it. She would have turned her head in between the cloud becoming electrified on panel 2 and the flash on panel 3.

The manga shows the cloud being electrified on panel 2 with Zala not looking at it at all.
Next panel she's looking at it with the ... signal.

It's a bigger assumption to say "she eyeballed it before it came down, didn't choose to move, and stayed there and did nothing while the bolt hit her" than "while the bolt comes down, she looks at it, signified by the ...".

The anime adds on to the scene, but it doesn't change the core of it which is that the cloud becomes electrified, Zala turns and looks at it, and then the lightning strikes her afterwards.

Which is wrong to the manga.

The anime blatantly adds Zala looking at the clouds prior to the shock and noticing it prior to the flash.
The manga shows she noticed it during the flash.

Why don't we see any lightning bolts about to hit Zala in the third panel if they're supposedly already on their way down to her from the second panel?

You mean in the aerial portion of the camera where we see the border of the cloud and the middle of the cloud is offscreen?
The sfx of the flash is from the lightning that is striking on it's way down, signified by the fact that we don't ever see that flash prior.

Not sure if it's been mentioned but the lightning bolt has already been formed before Zala turns around to react, and as Zala turns around the flash of lightning occurs.

Damage considers this the cloud charging up

 

[Damage3245]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but the lightning bolt has already been formed before Zala turns around to react, and as Zala turns around the flash of lightning occurs.

Right.

The cloud is electrified in panel 2, and in panel 3 Zala's head is already turned around as the Flash! happens.

 

[Eminiteable]

Damage considers this the cloud charging up

Can he prove that?

 

[KingTempest]

Can he prove that?

The anime shows the cloud charging up so apparently it means this is the cloud charging up

Though I fail to see why the cloud would charge up with lightning that far away from the cloud