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I don't think this is true either. IIRC Fujitora and Green bull were appointed directly to Admiral rank
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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph
- Thread starter KingTempest
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this was such a powerful and impactful moment.
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Please don't derail Monkey, this has nothing to do with the main discussion at hand.
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This is really not sufficient. I get Marco and Jozu, who (both) properly injured Aokiji, but Vista really didn't do something like that
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Meh, downscales from Mihawk then
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... Zoro fanboy
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As far as we know, he leaves Zou clean. No bandages shown.
He comes back looking like this
Meaning he didn't get out without a fight.
Literally the implication that you have to be stronger than the ones below you, means you have to be strong enough to be acknowledged as an admiral. The whole reason Akainu even became fleet admiral is because he won a fight against Aokiji. (Until otherwise is revealed, since it's still questionable what happened)
That'd imply Zoro had conqueror's based on his words, which contradicts Zoro's current obliviousness to him being able to use it. He wouldn't acknowledge Luffy as a captain if he wasn't shown that Luffy's worthy of being his captain.Fan scanshe said if Luffy wasn't at least capable of Conqueror's he'd have to take over as captain, not that if he wouldn't follow anyone weaker than himself.
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You can derail discussions in the thread. If we were all talking about the strongest Yonko and you bring up Kuro, that's derailingCan you really derail a general discussion thread? I think not
Eminiteable
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I don't see how that's relevant? Your point was Zoro is saying he can't follow anyone weaker than himself, that isn't stated or implied and his actual comment is in relation to conqueror's haki which at this point for Zoro and Luffy has nothing to do with strength scaling.
Eminiteable
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Pre Timeskip Zoro is about equal to Gear 2 Luffy, so that already puts Zoro > Base Luffy.
We also have Timeskip Zoro ~ G4 Luffy's Ap so he's already massively higher than base Luffy.
Even if we assume that Zoro stated that his captain must be stronger than himself, there are way more feats proving that Zoro > Base Luffy. Ever since gears were introduced (hell, even Goken), Zoro's always been above Base Luffy.
We also have Timeskip Zoro ~ G4 Luffy's Ap so he's already massively higher than base Luffy.
Even if we assume that Zoro stated that his captain must be stronger than himself, there are way more feats proving that Zoro > Base Luffy. Ever since gears were introduced (hell, even Goken), Zoro's always been above Base Luffy.
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This is not akainu evading the attack but tank it as he has stronger haki... That's the only explanation.... It makes no sense they are just evading.
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This could be a cannonball you know that right?As far as we know, he leaves Zou clean. No bandages shown.
He comes back looking like this
Meaning he didn't get out without a fight.
No you do not.
There are gargantuan gaps between admirals. Heck, there's crazy gaps between vice admirals in their own rank.
You can be superior to one and be inferior to another.
Akainu became fleet admiral because of his mindset, not because of his strength.
Fleet admirals are nominated by higher rank members. Aokiji was nominated because of his values of justice, while Akainu was nominated because of his asshole personality.
The only reason they fought is because they were fiercely opposed on each other becoming fleet admiral, and they made a bet on whoever wins the fight becomes Fleet admiral.
Otherwise is revealed, you're just so stuck in the mindset of all statements point to power.
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Again, if you believe Zoro is stronger than Luffy, you do you. With the exception of their whiskey peak clash, the story always made it crystal clear that Luffy>Zoro>Sanji. Either by having them fight the first, second and third strongest, or simply the straw hats themselves having the "If Luffy can't do it no one can" mentality.
Cannonball>Neko and Inu fighting him for days. Understandable
Again- you're far too fixated on the power gap. Admiral is Admiral. They don't say "It's the weakest admiral Fujitora" or "It's the slightly strong admiral Fujitora", they know it's Fujitora, and they know he's an admiral. If he wasn't worthy of that chair, Akainu would make sure he doesn't get it. The bastard killed guys scared for their lives and hesitating, and you think he'd let anyone weaker than the title requires be an admiral?
Both Akainu and Aokiji were nominated by Sengoku and Garp. Their ideologies clashed, and the winner's ideology got to be the one getting a pass. They were still both comparable, otherwise their fight wouldn't go on for ten days, with both sustaining visible scarring from eachother.
Send? Because aside from "They didn't agree and fought for ten days to decide it", I don't recall any other thing being told.
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Do people not understand what downscaling means
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No I'm just pointing out you straight up lied about Zoro saying that.
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Even if he is desperate, King knows a Tobi Roppo just offered to do the job and he doesn't underestimate her chances against the Half-Dead Scabbards we see at the end of Chapter 1004 like Jack did.
You mean the same Jack who took FIVE DAYS to change up his strategy, despite Neko and Inu maintaining a consistent tactic that kept him in a permanent stalemate? The same Jack who thought it was a wise idea to engage Fujitora, Tsuru, and possibly Sengoku all at the same time in a fight while trying to retrieve Doflamingo, despite being warned beforehand that there were powerful Marines guarding him? The same Jack who returned to Zou to kill Zunesha, only for Zunesha to one-shot him and his entire fleet in the end? If you say so man.
Some of the matchups we've see in this war have been due to personal grudges, but you really can't see Jack just wanting to defeat the Scabbards himself because they handed him his ass earlier?
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I argue with what's provided, not with headcanon assumptions of the narrative at play.
For the entire damn timeskip except the end, the databooks stated that Luffy and Zoro were equals.
The story didn't make shit crystal clear. This is your own headcanon.
Cannonball wounds Jack and can't put him down. Read to comprehend.
External wounds aren't everything.
Ok.
Shichibukai is Shichibukai. Guys let's make Buggy 6-B.
Captain is Captain. Let's make all captains 6-B.
You are not weaker than a title. Stop trying to justify tiers by positions.
Garp did not nominate a soul. Garp did not give a damn.
Akainu and Aokiji being comparable does not justify every damn admiral who gets the rank to be comparable.
Or what you think Dressrosa Luffy and Doffy can fight Akainu now? Since they apparently scale to Issho who's "in the same ballpark of other admirals" which includes Kizaru, who's around the level of MF Akainu.
Read above.
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This I agree with.
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Jack actually knows the strength of the scabbards and fought them recently, unlike King who hears information of "the scabbards can't even move and they're just lying there. Go kill them".
You know the only reason he pulled out the poison gas weapon is because he got tired right?
Being fearless isn't the same as being dumb.
He was told by Kaido to go retrieve Doflamingo. He does not care who's guarding, he said "go get Doflamingo".
You think Jack's gonna go back home to say "oh man Kaido, they had some strong people" and get off scot free?
The same Jack who had a well thought out strategy on how to defeat him and was defeated by a power that even the citizens of Zou did not know about???
I see that obviously, but you're trying to push the narrative that that's the only reason that Jack wants to fight them.
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Actually... This is better
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Not a lie? The implication is there, that if Luffy showed any less, Zoro would take over. Again, there's no reason Zoro would follow anybody weaker, going by his personality alone.
And I'm arguing for Luffy being at least equal to Zoro. Therefore, if Zoro, who you're saying is equal to Luffy, can clash with an admiral- and KATAKURI can kick around that same Luffy for nearly half a day, then Katakuri has scale that suggests he too would clash with Fujitora similiarly to Zoro and Gear 3 Luffy.
You say cannoballs, I say he got on the ship and fought, because the SBS itself says the confrontation was more direct than "he got hit by cannoballs and ran off":
I'm not saying they're around his level, I'm saying the Admirals themselves have to be over the ranks below, therefore qualify as "admirals". No one says all the admirals have to equal eachother, just that they're all worthy of carrying the admiral title based on their superiority to lower ranked fighters.
You can be a captain and get one shot by a vice captain. You can be a Shichibukai because you're either valuable to the government, or are acknowledged as powerful (or Lucky in Buggy's case).
You can't be an admiral unless you're stronger than Vice Admirals and qualify as an Admiral candidate. (Which, mind you, there are two of those confirmed currently, outside of the the 3 admirals we have.)
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"His strength is second only to the captain."Actually... This is better
Bless you for the sauce, monkey
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It was a straight up lie what are you saying?
Zoro never said that, there isn't even implication of that as it's in response to conqueror's haki. What Zoro said was if Luffy wasn't at least capable of conqueror's he would take over.
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None of them fought a serious Issho. So your whole scaling chain is folly.
I've already tackled each point.
This is not the SBS. This is the summary of the vivre cards by someone who leaves out lots of information.You say cannoballs, I say he got on the ship and fought, because the SBS itself says the confrontation was more direct than "he got hit by cannoballs and ran off":
If you find a translator, here's the actual official card.
The ranks below are fodder. So this isn't important.
Vice Admirals are fodder.
You're trying to put this "admiral level" narrative by admirals being superior to a tier of fodder, then scaling commanders to them to say they're in the same ballpark.
They can be superior to fodder, I don't care. The point is that they're not in the same ballpark.
1000 and 2 are both above 1. Are 2 and 1000 in the same ballpark?
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Ah yes... Kizaru was fodder
Theendzero13
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What is being discussed right know? Fuji scaling to the other admirals?
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Nice strawman.
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Again, the implication of him taking over if Luffy wasn't capable of doing what he does is enough to say that he wouldn't follow a captain that isn't at least as strong as he is.It was a straight up lie what are you saying?
Zoro never said that, there isn't even implication of that as it's in response to conqueror's haki. What Zoro said was if Luffy wasn't at least capable of conqueror's he would take over.
Then Greenbull is also vastly weaker than Kizaru, who shouldn't be too far behind pre timeskip admirals? Greenbull was sent to kick Fujitora out of Marijoi and offered to battle, which Fujitora said he'd rather not.
Either the admirals are comparable to eachother, considering Fujitora and Greenbull are so casual about the idea of fighting, only caring about not destroying the meeting, OR both Fujitora and Greenbull are nowhere near the original admirals in power.
Stefano4444
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More like Issho, Katakuri, Cracker, Smoothie and Jack scaling to other Yonko Commanders like King, Queen, Marco, Jozu, Ace and Vista.
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The narrative isn't that "admiral title" equates to you being admiral tier, it's that you can't be an admiral unless you're strong enough to be one. Unlike the Shichubukai and captains who vary in power, admirals start at a certain point based on strength before they're nominated. I don't care if they're weaker, I care that the admirals' ability sets them apart from Vice Admirals. That's why not every vice admiral is a candidate, but only certain ones among them that are just better than the rest.
Otherwise being a CANDIDATE wouldn't even be considered, because by that logic any Vice Admiral that stands out can be an admiral.
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Not a strawman.... I guess vergo is fodder, wait didn't king say he has one of the most potent haki? Huh guess that's fodder
Theendzero13
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I mean i agree that they do scale but without feats or blatant statements we cannot scale so many people to such high levels....
Maybe if we scale doffy to jozu and cracker and katakuri to or above doffy?
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Smoker and Vergo are far from fodder, and even they're not considered admiral candidates.
I fail to see why Admiral candidates (therefore admirals, if they succeed at becoming that) shouldn't be considerably stronger than the likes of Vergo and Smoker to be considered for the Admiral Position, if even Smoker who's by no means weak, isn't considered an admiral candidate yet.
The way it goes is Admirals>Admiral candidates>Vice admirals. This mindset of one admiral being able to fodderize another admiral is flat out wrong, because two of the current admirals are already being portrayed as at least somewhat equal.
I fail to see why Admiral candidates (therefore admirals, if they succeed at becoming that) shouldn't be considerably stronger than the likes of Vergo and Smoker to be considered for the Admiral Position, if even Smoker who's by no means weak, isn't considered an admiral candidate yet.
The way it goes is Admirals>Admiral candidates>Vice admirals. This mindset of one admiral being able to fodderize another admiral is flat out wrong, because two of the current admirals are already being portrayed as at least somewhat equal.
Stefano4444
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As far as i am concerned, i do think that Jack and the Sweet Commanders should somewhat scale to the All Stars or Top WB Crew members (like possibly 6-B should be more than fair), i really find ridiculous to think Top Yonko Crew members wouldn't be capable to fought other Top Yonko members.
Also i do think that Issho should at the very least be consider comparable if not stronger than Doflamingo, as the latter confermed that it would had been difficult defeat him in a fight.
Having Issho only be as strong as Gear 3rd Luffy just don't make sense narratively speaking, Kuzan and Sakazuki would have not send someone that wouldn't be able to accomplish the mission, and i definitely don't think Doffy's full strength would be something that the marines aren't aware of it.
And nothing explicitly show Issho go all out with Luffy during his escape from Dressrosa, or that he wouldn't had be able to defeat him.
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In all fairness Smoothie did nothing so far, so we can't include her in that. For all we know she's weaker than Cracker. (Unless otherwise is stated and I missed it)
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Fodder.
Fodder.
Fodder.
Fodder.
And Fodder.
Hmm something doesn't seem right... All the current admiral used to be vice admirals.
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That maybe true, but 1) King should still have some rough idea of how strong the Scabbards were since they did attack Kaido right in front of his eyes at the end of Chapter 986/start of Chapter 987. 2) Even you agree that the Half-Dead Scabbards who can't move < Black Maria, so we really have nothing more to discuss there.
As for all your other points you brought up, agree to disagree.
