One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

[SnookB]

Base Jack ~ Base Scabbards > Super Injured Scabbards > Tobiroppo

I still find it EXTREMELY strange how you called Jinbe "trash" because he used his strongest attack to one shot a Tobiroppo (as far as we know, definitively, since WW isn't awake yet), yet another comparable Tobiroppo took named attack from Big Mom and got right back up to chase after Nami.
It's almost like the Tobiroppo aren't as fodder as you make them sound. They're literally composed of Ancient Zoans, known for their ridiculous endurance, yet Jinbe effectively KO'D one for longer than anyone could KO Ulti or PageOne. Who mind you, Sanji couldn't knock out either during their town fight, while wearing the Raid Suit.

Weird how the Tobiroppo ARE comparable to calamities but the titles are what make things clouded, yet we're acknowledging that titles shouldn't matter in the first place when scaling them based on feats.

 

[Nierre]

you called Jinbe "trash"

unbased KingTempest...

How could you call Big Bro/Boss Jinbe trash... for shame.....

 

[SnookB]

unbased KingTempest...

How could you call Big Bro/Boss Jinbe trash... for shame.....

Wholesome uncle whale shark don't get enough credit. What is this unfair life

 

[KingTempest]

But King, who believes just like Jack that any Calamity is superior to a Tobi Roppo, thinks Black Maria was capable of killing the injured Scabbards. He didn't doubt her strength to do the job.

He was desperate, known by his screaming of "ANYONE"

Since his introduction in Zou, Jack has repeatedly shown to be an idiot.

Jack has never shown to be an idiot. His subordinates have. Check out the vivre cards.

Not to mention, he always came across in that scene when he says the Tobi Roppo can't beat Super Injured Scabbards as just talking a bunch of sour grapes because the Scabbards beat him earlier and he simply just wanted to be the one to finish them off as payback. Of course he'd say a Tobi Roppo, who he looks down on, couldn't beat them.

I fail to see why he'd hold up a war because he's petty and wants to fight people.

This is new

Jack Vivre card

Chapter 922
He is generally a lover of destruction, but he is also calm enough to consider what will the action bring about.

Chapter 921 against Shutenmaru
Possessing high combat abilities, he is able to cross sword evenly against tough samurais.

Chapter 979 "None at all" panel
As a lead performer, he is willing to take on any challenges.

Chapter 991 Kaido protects Jack panels
Jack is a lead performer chosen by Kaido himself, he has earned his trust through his strength, ability to make decisions, and loyalty.

Every first/Second commander we've seen has shown either near admiral character scaling, or flat out clashed with them. (With the exception of Smoothie)

FIRST/SECOND COMMANDER ISN'T A THING.

And only the WB Pirates, the strongest Pirate crew on the sea, have shown that. The beast Pirates had their top tiers struggle with a single Marco.

Marco was fighting Big Mom. You wanna tell me King's fighting Big Mom?

That and Jack's statement of them not being able to take the scabbards DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS King agreeing to Black Maria going to finish off the Scabbards.

King was DESPERATE, he was asking for ANYBODY to go and fight them

Jack saying No to her was literally because of his own personal sentiments and had nothing to do with how strong she or the other Tobiroppo are, so either:
A- Emotionally motivated Jack somehow rationally deduced that the Tobiroppo wouldn't win, then we get a panel of Jack being obviously angry at the 3 scabbards who got around him on Zou
B- King is an idiot, despite him being the calmest one that seems to be in charge of orders so far, with the exception of him snapping once Zoro broke his mask.

C. King is desperate for their heads on platters and wants them dead

 

[SnookB]

FIRST/SECOND COMMANDER ISN'T A THING.

The position of "first, second and third" always were a thing. If not "commanders", then other titles. Commander is more or less just the term we're all used to.
Kaido has his first, second and third calamities. Big Mom has her first, second and third sweet commanders. WB had his First, Second, Third and fourth Division commanders.
And Shanks calls his Bffs

C. King is desperate for their heads on platters and wants them dead

He isn't desperate, he literally heard Bao Huang say "They are bruised and bloodied but have escaped" and is fully aware that they're on their last leg. King barely trusted Queen to handle anything, let alone send the Tobiroppo to their deaths if he knew they aren't enough.
Jack has more reason to tell them not to go because he wants redemption. King is aware they're half-dead and has no reason to not send anyone capable like the Tobi Roppo to take care of it.
In addition to that, SANJI knows how strong they are or should have a gauge based on his experience with Kinemon. He wouldn't be so freaked out and try his best not to let BM go if he knew she'd get handled by them.

 

[KingTempest]

The position of "first, second and third" always were a thing. If not "commanders", then other titles. Commander is more or less just the term we're all used to.
Kaido has his first, second and third calamities. Big Mom has her first, second and third sweet commanders. WB had his First, Second, Third and fourth Division commanders.
And Shanks calls his Bffs

Being used to it does not mean it's accurate.

My issue is the fact that you guys take it as strength for no reason.

Big Mom didn't have "first second and third sweet commanders", she has "sweet commanders", simple. She does not rank them or split them up. The fact that there was 4 prior to Snack getting bodied shows that's not the case.

Kaido does not have "first, second and third commanders. He has calamities. He does not rank them although there is clear rank between them.

Whitebeard has commanders of certain divisions in his crew and it's confirmed their positions in the crew don't mean shit when it comes to power, which is why Oden was the commander of the second division, unless you think kid apprentice marco is stronger than Oden. They are all at equal standing in the Whitebeard pirates.

Having 3 commanders does not mean you have a first second and third. They're all on equal standing.

He isn't desperate, he literally heard Bao Huang say "They are bruised and bloodied but have escaped" and is fully aware that they're on their last leg.

"I'm occupied at the moment!! Is there anyone else?! Head to the treasure room at once and kill all the samurai for good!!!"

Half the time, King says "...", being a man of little words.

King barely trusted Queen to handle anything, let alone send the Tobiroppo to their deaths if he knew they aren't enough.

He does not care about the wellbeing of the Tobiroppo, which is shown several times. King likes to do everything himself, which is why he went and kicked Linlin's ship down without any care in the world and he called the Tobiroppo when nobody asked him to.

Jack has more reason to tell them not to go because he wants redemption. King is aware they're half-dead and has no reason to not send anyone capable like the Tobi Roppo to take care of it.

If he wants redemption he'd say that he wants redemption. He said they weren't strong enough. Regardless of any ulterior motives, he would've said "they're mine".

In addition to that, SANJI knows how strong they are or should have a gauge based on his experience with Kinemon. He wouldn't be so freaked out and try his best not to let BM go if he knew she'd get handled by them.

He has never seen Kin'emon fight at all.
At that moment he has never seen Black Maria fight either.

He thought in his mind "they're down" which means KO'd. They didn't know of the state of the Tobiroppo.

And for your information.

Jack is speaking of the regular power of the Scabbards from what he knows, saying that they are stronger than the likes of the Tobiroppo.

Bao Huang speaks of that moment right after Kaido beats their asses, where they can't even move prior to being healed by the mystery person.

Regardless of anything, he knows that the scabbards' regular power level was far above the Tobiroppo.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

No

 

[RoyGundam]

I think there is a need to clarify the events when King asked for the Tobi Roppo to go after the Akazaya:
1. King hears that the Scabbards are badly wounded
2. He asks if anyone can go and kill them. The scene makes it so that he would have done it himself if he was free
3. Black Maria responds saying that she will take care of it
4. King replies with "I'm counting on you"
5. Sanji gets worried about Black Maria going after the injured Scabbards

 

[KingTempest]

Borderline dead scabbards who can't move < Black Maria
Regular health scabbards that Jack fought on the roof, on Zou, and in Kuri > Black Maria

Simple

 

[RoyGundam]

Borderline dead scabbards who can't move < Black Maria
Regular health scabbards that Jack fought on the roof, on Zou, and in Kuri > Black Maria

Simple

I think this is reasonable

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

But Sanji will one shot big mom next chapter (leaked) so... Jinbe won't be close to him anymore

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

But Sanji will one shot big mom next chapter (leaked) so... Jinbe won't be close to him anymore

 

[RoyGundam]

But Sanji will one shot big mom next chapter (leaked) so... Jinbe won't be close to him anymore

Kid magnetizes Queen and then Sanji kicks him into Big Mom KOing both

 

[SnookB]

My issue is the fact that you guys take it as strength for no reason.

No one takes titles as a baseline for strength- or bounties at that. Otherwise Buggy=Doflamingo based on titles alone. The reasoning behind commanders being at least somewhat relative is based on showings and scaling, not titles.

Regardless of anything, he knows that the scabbards' regular power level was far above the Tobiroppo.

Then we agree on that. Healthy 9 Scabbards vs 6 Tobiroppo is in the Scabbard's favor. Hell, I'd say the 9 scabbards at full health would give the 3 calamities a run for their money as well.

Borderline dead scabbards who can't move < Black Maria
Regular health scabbards that Jack fought on the roof, on Zou, and in Kuri > Black Maria

Agreed. The point is that the half-dead Scabbards aren't beating the tobiroppo, while earlier you, yourself said:

Jinbe ~ WW < Tired Half Dead Scabbards

Which was the whole reason this argument is still alive-
Healthy 9 red scabards>Tobi Roppo
Tobi Roppo individually>Exhausted and tired 9 scabbards
Which means either Jack didn't know they were already bloodied when he said TObiroppo should stay out of it, or he was just saying it anyway for his personal vendetta.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Kid magnetizes Queen and then Sanji kicks him into Big Mom KOing both

And then sanji learns

Vinsmoke Sanji:

• Diable Jambe: boule de feu (translated from Hidama (火魂, "fire spirit")

(An onibi from the Okinawa Prefecture. It ordinarily lives in the kitchen behind the charcoal extinguisher, but it is said to become a bird-like shape and fly around, and make things catch on fire.)
(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onibi)

by watching Prometheus

 

[SnookB]

And then sanji learns

by watching Prometheus

Sanji's fire burns hotter than his soul so his fire can directly hurt your soul GGWP

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Sanji's fire burns hotter than his soul so his fire can directly hurt your soul GGWP

Sanji transforms to half devil and can now burn souls and with full transformation can burn them from things existence

 

[SnookB]

Sanji transforms to half devil and can now burn souls and with full transformation can burn them from things existence

Zoro can cut the trichiliocosm therefore tier 1 endgame Zoro and Sanji

 

[KingTempest]

No one takes titles as a baseline for strength- or bounties at that. Otherwise Buggy=Doflamingo based on titles alone. The reasoning behind commanders being at least somewhat relative is based on showings and scaling, not titles.

Said showings and scaling are
"Oh... well they're both commanders of Yonko crews, which means that they should be in this ballpark of strength"

So Jinbe who fought a second Commander, Ace, is weaker than the guy weaker than the calamity weaker than the second Commander of a crew that's supposed to be rivalling WB's own.
That just sounds outlandish to me, honestly. Unless Ace as a second Commander ISN'T as strong as the Beast Pirates' own, OR Jinbe got weaker.

Katakuri has no feats of scaling.
Cracker has no feats of scaling.
Smoothie has no feats of scaling.
Jack has no feats of scaling.

The only commanders that show that are
The WB pirates Marco, Jozu, Vista, and Ace
Beckman, who's equal to his captain.
King and Queen, who fought Marco.

Then we agree on that. Healthy 9 Scabbards vs 6 Tobiroppo is in the Scabbard's favor. Hell, I'd say the 9 scabbards at full health would give the 3 calamities a run for their money as well.

I'd say any singular scabbard vs any single Tobiroppo ends up with the Tobiroppo getting bodied.

The 9 scabbards at full health are getting bodied just like they did 20 years ago to Queen and King.

Agreed. The point is that the half-dead Scabbards aren't beating the tobiroppo, while earlier you, yourself said:

I was referring to the ones that were semi-healed that Jack fought, not the ones who couldn't pick their asses up.

Which was the whole reason this argument is still alive-
Healthy 9 red scabards>Tobi Roppo
Tobi Roppo individually>Exhausted and tired 9 scabbards
Which means either Jack didn't know they were already bloodied when he said TObiroppo should stay out of it, or he was just saying it anyway for his personal vendetta.

He made a bad assumption based on what he heard about their condition.
Regardless it shows Scabbards are superior to the Tobiroppo.

 

[RoyGundam]

The WB pirates Marco, Jozu, Vista, and Ace

I am still not wholly convinced about Vista and Ace scaling if we're going only by Marineford war feats (I don't know anything about the Ace novels)

 

[SnookB]

Katakuri has no feats of scaling.
Cracker has no feats of scaling.
Smoothie has no feats of scaling.
Jack has no feats of scaling.

Katakuri>Luffy>Zoro~Clashed with Fujitora more than once, similiar to Marco/Jozu who clashed with Kizaru/Aokiji.
Same case goes for Cracker, who gave Luffy a lot of trouble and cut through his haki.
Smoothie, I DID SAY "except for her". She's iffy as hell.
Jack survived an encounter with Sengoku and Fujitora. We don't have the specifics, but he went in with malicious intent and still walked out alive and uncaptured.

 

[RoyGundam]

Katakuri>Luffy>Zoro~Clashed with Fujitora more than once, similiar to Marco/Jozu who clashed with Kizaru/Aokiji.

Fujitora doesn't scale to OG Admirals, Zoro didn't hurt him

 

[KingTempest]

I am still not wholly convinced about Vista and Ace scaling if we're going only by Marineford war feats (I don't know anything about the Ace novels)

Ace left consistent burns on Whitebeard in the ace novel and Vista was an issue for Akainu alongside Marco

 

[SnookB]

Fujitora doesn't scale to OG Admirals, Zoro didn't hurt him

Still an admiral. I never said scaling to an admiral equates to scaling to every admiral, just that you're in the general ballpark of where admiral characters sit.
Zoro had him worried when using a flying slash, we even literally see Fujitora SHUDDER because his Kenbunshoku picked up on how dangerous Zoro's attack was.

 

[KingTempest]

Katakuri>Luffy>Zoro~Clashed with Fujitora more than once, similiar to Marco/Jozu who clashed with Kizaru/Aokiji.

Stronger than my ass. You have no proof Luffy's stronger than Zoro.

And Issho held back the entire arc.

Plus Luffy was struggling with Issho, so wdym.

Plus the fact that Issho has no reason to be on the level of those other admirals

Same case goes for Cracker, who gave Luffy a lot of trouble and cut through his haki.

Doesn't show anything comparing em to Issho.

Jack survived an encounter with Sengoku and Fujitora. We don't have the specifics, but he went in with malicious intent and still walked out alive and uncaptured.

We don't even know if they attacked him.

 

[KingTempest]

Still an admiral. I never said scaling to an admiral equates to scaling to every admiral, just that you're in the general ballpark of where admiral characters sit.

This is not proven at all.

 

[SnookB]

Stronger than my ass. You have no proof Luffy's stronger than Zoro.

Zoro himself literally said he wouldn't follow anyone weaker than himself?? What more reason do you need than the character himself saying that his captain is at least equal to him?? And by Luffy>Zoro I mean Whole Cake Luffy, during the Katakuri fight, being stronger than Dressrosa Zoro, who clashed with an admiral.

Doesn't show anything comparing em to Issho.

Ishou was getting pushed back by G3 Luffy. A stronger Luffy could barely touch Cracker through his soldiers, even in gear fourth.

We don't even know if they attacked him.

He came back covered in bandages, which implies there was a confrontation. The guy went there to take Doffy, he wouldn't have been told "Go away" and did so.

This is not proven at all.

How? Admirals are all decided by strong. As are Fleet admirals. To be an admiral candidate you have to be somewhat comparable to another admiral. The narrative itself is proof.

 

[Eminiteable]

Zoro himself literally said he wouldn't follow anyone weaker than himself??

We lying now

 

[RoyGundam]

Still an admiral. I never said scaling to an admiral equates to scaling to every admiral, just that you're in the general ballpark of where admiral characters sit.

I can replace "admiral" with "warlord" and argue 6-B Buggy, but I won't because that would be a massive downplay of Buggy-sama

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I am still not wholly convinced about Vista and Ace scaling if we're going only by Marineford war feats (I don't know anything about the Ace novels)

Vista is stated to be skilled and strong enough to compete with Mihawk I think

 

[SnookB]

We lying now

"If he couldn't do this much, we'd have to get a new captain."
If you believe Zoro would follow anyone lesser, than I don't know what to tell you.

 

[RoyGundam]

Vista is stated to be skilled and strong enough to compete with Mihawk I think

I'd like to see a statement. AFAIK a casual Vista and a casual Mihawk clashed and nothing happened

 

[KingTempest]

Zoro himself literally said he wouldn't follow anyone weaker than himself?? What more reason do you need than the character himself saying that his captain is at least equal to him??

He has never said this a day in his life.

And by Luffy>Zoro I mean Whole Cake Luffy, during the Katakuri fight, being stronger than Dressrosa Zoro, who clashed with an admiral.

Not stated or proven to be stronger than Zoro.
Zoro who fought a held back Admiral.

Ishou was getting pushed back by G3 Luffy. A stronger Luffy could barely touch Cracker through his soldiers, even in gear fourth.

Gear 2nd and 3rd combined off of a sneak attack while he was holding a country in the air, then when he was serious he sent him flying along with a mountain.

He came back covered in bandages, which implies there was a confrontation.

Bandages where?

The guy went there to take Doffy, he wouldn't have been told "Go away" and did so.

If Kaido told me to go fight people I'm fighting them.

How? Admirals are all decided by strong. As are Fleet admirals. To be an admiral candidate you have to be somewhat comparable to another admiral. The narrative itself is proof.

No you do not. This is never stated. You're just pulling out massive amounts of headcanon.

You need to be stronger than the marines below you, that's what has been shown.

 

[Eminiteable]

"If he couldn't do this much, we'd have to get a new captain."
If you believe Zoro would follow anyone lesser, than I don't know what to tell you.

Fan scans he said if Luffy wasn't at least capable of Conqueror's he'd have to take over as captain, not that he wouldn't follow anyone weaker than himself.

 

[Nierre]

stop using titles as an argument it's not gonna get you anywhere.

 

[KingTempest]

"If he couldn't do this much, we'd have to get a new captain."
If you believe Zoro would follow anyone lesser, than I don't know what to tell you.

You're somebody who takes every statement in the series as strength, which irritates me.

This is talking about leadership. If he can't use a power shown by leaders, he can't be my captain.

This is the same shit he said before with the Usopp situation where he said that if Usopp walked all over Luffy he would leave the crew.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'd like to see a statement. AFAIK a casual Vista and a casual Mihawk clashed and nothing happened

"His sword skills are on par with Mihawk's. He is definitely one of the top swordsmen in the world.
He is one of the best swordsmen in the world.

I guess it was only skill but still

 

[RoyGundam]

Ace left consistent burns on Whitebeard in the ace novel and Vista was an issue for Akainu alongside Marco

That Ace feat could be Dura neg

And Vista+Marco wasn't really an issue for Akainu. They were unable to injure him.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

And Vista+Marco wasn't really an issue for Akainu. They were unable to injure him.

Because akainu has stronger haki

 

[KingTempest]

That Ace feat could be Dura neg

He couldn't burn him before with his strongest attack, then a random clash was good enough to burn his palm. That's AP.

And Vista+Marco wasn't really an issue for Akainu. They were unable to injure him.

Akainu shuddered from their attack