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I was referring to him saying that I wasn't using the official translation.LordWhis said:
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One Piece Discussion Thread
- Thread starter LordGriffin1000
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Again, that's a mis translation. The smothering translation is the correct one. And the wiki supports this. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Mera_Mera_no_Mi
Strengths and weaknesses
"The Mera Mera no Mi is inferior to the Magu Magu no Mi in the Devil Fruit hierarchy.[11] Magma is of a naturally higher order than fire, allowing it to overwhelm the Mera Mera no Mi's powers. The magma can neutralize even the intangibility and heat-immunity of the Mera Mera no Mi, thus leading the user to be burned and completely vulnerable."
Now if you read the strength and weaknesses of the Magu Magu no Mi this is what it states.
"This fruit's ability is naturally of a higher order than the fire-manipulating Mera Mera no Mi,[7] with the magma produced able to consume the opposing flames, and neutralize the fire-based intangibility, harming the user.[2]The Magu Magu no Mi's strength is powerful enough to take on people like Emporio Ivankov[8] and Jinbe[6] with minimal effort."
His Magma simply doesn't burn hotter than Ace's fire, a side effect of the Mera Mera no Mi is that the user gets a high tolerance to heat. After Akainu consumed Ace's flames and forced him back into his true body the intensity of Akainu's Magma bypassed Ace's fire resistance.
Strengths and weaknesses
"The Mera Mera no Mi is inferior to the Magu Magu no Mi in the Devil Fruit hierarchy.[11] Magma is of a naturally higher order than fire, allowing it to overwhelm the Mera Mera no Mi's powers. The magma can neutralize even the intangibility and heat-immunity of the Mera Mera no Mi, thus leading the user to be burned and completely vulnerable."
Now if you read the strength and weaknesses of the Magu Magu no Mi this is what it states.
"This fruit's ability is naturally of a higher order than the fire-manipulating Mera Mera no Mi,[7] with the magma produced able to consume the opposing flames, and neutralize the fire-based intangibility, harming the user.[2]The Magu Magu no Mi's strength is powerful enough to take on people like Emporio Ivankov[8] and Jinbe[6] with minimal effort."
His Magma simply doesn't burn hotter than Ace's fire, a side effect of the Mera Mera no Mi is that the user gets a high tolerance to heat. After Akainu consumed Ace's flames and forced him back into his true body the intensity of Akainu's Magma bypassed Ace's fire resistance.
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The wiki is also created by fans you know, and as it happens, it supports me. You claimed my page that I posted refers to Akainu as lava when it doesn'tl; he says Magma. And he says "My magma can burn even you." which this: " The magma can neutralize even the intangibility and heat-immunity of the Mera Mera no Mi, thus leading the user to be burned and completely vulnerable." agrees with.
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1: That doesn't stop it from being the most official source and accurate source for One Piece information aside from Oda himself.
2: My mistake, thought i read Lava. Either way that's just you misinterpreting things. "My Magma can burn even you!" Refers to burning Ace despite his resistance to heat. His Magma smothers and consumes Ace's flames, thus bypassing his Logia-Defense.
3: You literally just proved yourself wrong. "The Magma can neutralize even the intangibility and heat-immunity of the Mera Mera no Mi, thus leading the user to be burned ans completely vulnerable." This actually supports my point here. Akainu doesn't just "burn" Ace's fire, it smothers it and neutralizes the intangibility. Ace has resistance to heat in his non Logia Body, once Akainu neutralized his intangibility he was also able to burn Ace despite said resistance to heat.
2: My mistake, thought i read Lava. Either way that's just you misinterpreting things. "My Magma can burn even you!" Refers to burning Ace despite his resistance to heat. His Magma smothers and consumes Ace's flames, thus bypassing his Logia-Defense.
3: You literally just proved yourself wrong. "The Magma can neutralize even the intangibility and heat-immunity of the Mera Mera no Mi, thus leading the user to be burned ans completely vulnerable." This actually supports my point here. Akainu doesn't just "burn" Ace's fire, it smothers it and neutralizes the intangibility. Ace has resistance to heat in his non Logia Body, once Akainu neutralized his intangibility he was also able to burn Ace despite said resistance to heat.
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1: Aside from Cin himself***
flips hair, but trips down some stairs
flips hair, but trips down some stairs
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What do you mean? That completely supports my point and the official translation. I'm not saying that Akainu's magma burns Ace's fire, I'm saying that because Akainu's fire is hotter than Ace's fire, it surpasses his heat resistance and allow him to be burnt despite his elementla intangibility.Knightofannihilation666 said:
Anyway, this has pretty much nothing to do with what we were originally talking about. The point is having a 'superior DF' doesn't give you instant-winning powers.
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I hope you damaged ligaments.CinCameron20 said:
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Hey Cin, since I'm 99% sure you made most of the One Piece profiles, can you answer this?Damage3245 said:
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@Damage - Oh, yeah. I can understand the skepticism.
Here's the thing regarding Haki in general feat-wise: We never ever get told that a user is using x type of haki after Jinbe mentions it in Fishman Island arc. When a user just uses it and nothing is said, it can be passed off as "oh, the opponent gave himself away". Busoshoku is the only one where it's dead-obvious.
Hell, 90% of the current kenbunshoku haki users including Fujitora don't have statements saying "He uses kenbunshoku haki"... that's only ever been stated for Luffy (twice), and later Katakuri post time-skip.
Doflamingo threw his kick BEFORE he even finished his questio and before Fujitora even started talking. The anime depicts this way differently. Also, Doflamingo noted how there was no longer any need for Law to be given his cuff key when he was just chillaxing on his chair and having no way to actually know about this without Kenbunshoku or someone telling him, which the latter is impossible. This happens as soon as Robin, Rebecca, and Bartolomeo started heading over to the flower hill with one of them possessing a spare key for the cuffs. He was clearly aware of this.
Not to mention that it would be strange for him to use a wide-spread parasito from the flower hill and have pin-pointed individual targets without the ability.
Here's the thing regarding Haki in general feat-wise: We never ever get told that a user is using x type of haki after Jinbe mentions it in Fishman Island arc. When a user just uses it and nothing is said, it can be passed off as "oh, the opponent gave himself away". Busoshoku is the only one where it's dead-obvious.
Hell, 90% of the current kenbunshoku haki users including Fujitora don't have statements saying "He uses kenbunshoku haki
"... that's only ever been stated for Luffy (twice), and later Katakuri post time-skip.Doflamingo threw his kick BEFORE he even finished his questio and before Fujitora even started talking. The anime depicts this way differently. Also, Doflamingo noted how there was no longer any need for Law to be given his cuff key when he was just chillaxing on his chair and having no way to actually know about this without Kenbunshoku or someone telling him, which the latter is impossible. This happens as soon as Robin, Rebecca, and Bartolomeo started heading over to the flower hill with one of them possessing a spare key for the cuffs. He was clearly aware of this.
Not to mention that it would be strange for him to use a wide-spread parasito from the flower hill and have pin-pointed individual targets without the ability.
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We've seen Fujitora using Observation Haki, so a statement isn't needed for him. If someone isn't being shown to use Observation Haki, then they shouldn't be given it without reason.
The rest of it seems pretty circumstantial for Doffy. It isn't really implied that Doflamingo is kicking in response to Fujitora's future answer; he could be attacking him purely for Fujitora's previous statement of removing the Seven Warlords system. And attacking someone mid-sentence doesn't mean you saw the end of their sentence through future-vision.
Also, that scene of Doflamingo and the key appears different in the Viz translation. I'm not really sure he's referring to Rebecca and the others being on the way with Law's key.
The wide-spread Parasito is odd, but that seems to almost been an automatic ability set up by Doffy. Once it starts from the Birdcage, it seems to happen regardless if Doflamingo is focusing on it. I seriously doubt Doffy is concentrating on controlling random citizens while he's in the middle of his fights with Law and Luffy.
EDIT: And do you agree with editing the Haki page regarding the Voice of All Things?
The rest of it seems pretty circumstantial for Doffy. It isn't really implied that Doflamingo is kicking in response to Fujitora's future answer; he could be attacking him purely for Fujitora's previous statement of removing the Seven Warlords system. And attacking someone mid-sentence doesn't mean you saw the end of their sentence through future-vision.
Also, that scene of Doflamingo and the key appears different in the Viz translation. I'm not really sure he's referring to Rebecca and the others being on the way with Law's key.
The wide-spread Parasito is odd, but that seems to almost been an automatic ability set up by Doffy. Once it starts from the Birdcage, it seems to happen regardless if Doflamingo is focusing on it. I seriously doubt Doffy is concentrating on controlling random citizens while he's in the middle of his fights with Law and Luffy.
EDIT: And do you agree with editing the Haki page regarding the Voice of All Things?
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The thing is that you seem to be basing this on the idea that one's DF is separate from their other powers, for Paramecias and Zoans this is true. Logias are another story.Damage3245 said:
Logia users become their element. Once a character eats the Mera Mera no mi for example they aren't their old selves with a few fire-based attacks, they are fire, they become their element. Pre-df strength has a very limited impact on post df strength for Logia.
It is true that having a stronger DF doesn't guarantee victory. But Logias of a certain element being victorious against another logia with an elemental weakness to the former's element is a sure thing.
Also, if big mom ate the Mera Mera no mi, even I could beat her.
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Elemental disadvantages are crucial in Logia fights, but that doesn't really apply to high tiers like the Admirals or maybe even Sabo because they have strong Haki anyways. They are the deciding factor only if it's a non-Haki fight. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for Aokiji vs Akaiknu to be a close fight because Aokiji is stalemated by Ace and Akainu has superior powers to Ace
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Aokiji was only stalemated in a brief clash... not an extended one-on-one fight.
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Here is what Oda himself has to say on Devil Fruit superiority, from volume 79, page 100:LordWhis said:
"Though there are other fruit pairs out there that might make you wonder don't they pretty much do the same thing?, these abilities tend to be headed in different directions in terms of how they actually work or what they can do. Also, a superior ability does not necessarily equate to the character's strength. No ability alone guarantees victory in combat."
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So you're just going to ignore the Word of God then and rely on your own interpretation?
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This is pretty much the most relevant line from Oda; "Also, a superior ability does not necessarily equate to the character's strength."
Akainu didn't just have a superior DF. He was also a better fighter, and had a golden opportunity as Ace threw himself in front of Akainu's attack to save Luffy.
@DodaNova2, About the latest chapter; attack names are not always literal. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Akainu didn't just have a superior DF. He was also a better fighter, and had a golden opportunity as Ace threw himself in front of Akainu's attack to save Luffy.
@DodaNova2, About the latest chapter; attack names are not always literal. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
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Katakuri > Smoothie > Cracker > Doffy... Fixed it.CinCameron20 said:Katakuri > Doffy > Smoothie > Cracker*
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There was nothing to fix.
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@ CinCameron That is extremely debatable.
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I know some people like to ignore the context of series and favor calcs over manga portrayal, but can somebody explain to me how exactly guns and cannons would still be relevant in any way in a verse where even basic fighters are sub-relativistic?
Or how Big Mom pirates can be shocked that the Vinsmokes have bulletproof skin when people have calced mid-tier fighters to have the durability of mountains?
Or how Big Mom herself is noted as being immune to cannons and gunfire and explosions, which impresses other characters to the point of calling her an 'iron balloon' and they need a special plan to even harm her. Why would being immune to all of the above be impressive if a random scrub from pre-timeskip could be calced to do the same?
Or how Whitebeard who is regarded as being country level even in his old, weakened state wasn't able to break down a big reinforced metal wall?
This isn't a general criticism of making and using calcs in general since a lot of times they can be valid and make sense in the context of the series; but if some calcs drastically over-inflate a characters stats and is inconsistent with the story itself; how do we resolve this? Ignore the story and the rest of the verse in favor of calcs? Ignore dozens of antifeats in favor of a single feat? Call out the author as being wrong on his own series?
I think when something is hugely inconsistent with the verse and there are more antifeats against it then feats supporting it, we can dismiss it. And I'm not talking about a specific calc or feat that's being used here, but there are some (for this verse and others) that I have problems with.
Or how Big Mom pirates can be shocked that the Vinsmokes have bulletproof skin when people have calced mid-tier fighters to have the durability of mountains?
Or how Big Mom herself is noted as being immune to cannons and gunfire and explosions, which impresses other characters to the point of calling her an 'iron balloon' and they need a special plan to even harm her. Why would being immune to all of the above be impressive if a random scrub from pre-timeskip could be calced to do the same?
Or how Whitebeard who is regarded as being country level even in his old, weakened state wasn't able to break down a big reinforced metal wall?
This isn't a general criticism of making and using calcs in general since a lot of times they can be valid and make sense in the context of the series; but if some calcs drastically over-inflate a characters stats and is inconsistent with the story itself; how do we resolve this? Ignore the story and the rest of the verse in favor of calcs? Ignore dozens of antifeats in favor of a single feat? Call out the author as being wrong on his own series?
I think when something is hugely inconsistent with the verse and there are more antifeats against it then feats supporting it, we can dismiss it. And I'm not talking about a specific calc or feat that's being used here, but there are some (for this verse and others) that I have problems with.
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1) It's not just One Piece that does this with guns... Dragon Ball Super, Jojo, and many other verses that are FTL still have guns as a threat in some regard.
2) To be honest, it doesn't make sense when they try to suggest the Vinsmokes to be immune to bullets due to their skin tension when Sanji has been flung through entire buildings and still got hurt by a stray bullet. then again, other sources of fiction still do this (again, Dragon Ball Super, Jojo, etc...)
3) Big Mom was seen as being basically immune to all damage, and if the weaponry in One Piece were only as potent as their RL counterparts, they'd be pointless in fiction in general.
4) Whitebeard could not destroy the wall because it's heavily implied to have been reinforced with Sea-Stone which nullifies DF powers. See Bird-Cage closing in on the Smile Factory. It couldn't cut it.
5) So you're suggesting that characters be downgraded to 8-C at their peak since that's actually the durability requirement to have bullets bounce off without scratching you? The guns are just stronger.
2) To be honest, it doesn't make sense when they try to suggest the Vinsmokes to be immune to bullets due to their skin tension when Sanji has been flung through entire buildings and still got hurt by a stray bullet. then again, other sources of fiction still do this (again, Dragon Ball Super, Jojo, etc...)
3) Big Mom was seen as being basically immune to all damage, and if the weaponry in One Piece were only as potent as their RL counterparts, they'd be pointless in fiction in general.
4) Whitebeard could not destroy the wall because it's heavily implied to have been reinforced with Sea-Stone which nullifies DF powers. See Bird-Cage closing in on the Smile Factory. It couldn't cut it.
5) So you're suggesting that characters be downgraded to 8-C at their peak since that's actually the durability requirement to have bullets bounce off without scratching you? The guns are just stronger.
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@Whis - alright, let's ignore the fact that Goku's arm was hurt by a bullet.
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1 + 2) I don't see why other verses doing the same thing means we need to just accept it and ignore dozens of antifeats. There has to be some way of rationalizing it and making profiles more consistent with what the verse portrays.
3) The weapons in OP are indeed more devastating then the IRL counterparts. Buggy having a tiny compressed explosive able to do damage to a whole street of houses proves that. But that alone doesn't explain it.
4) That's a good rationalization of it, but I don't think that's been confirmed. I'd accept that as an explanation though because it is consistent with the verse.
5) No, I'm not suggesting any downgrades yet. I'm currently trying to find a more suitable compromise that would be both accurate and acceptable on the site. Once I've gathered a sufficient amount of evidence, then I'll be suggesting possible reivisons.
And One Piece guns for the most part haven't been specifically highlighted as being more powerful except in certain cases such as Pudding's candy-jacketed bullets which could pierce the Vinsmokes, or Capone's pistol which somehow causes an explosion when he shoots it, or if somebody uses Haki on a bullet (though strangely nobody has been noted to do that yet).
3) The weapons in OP are indeed more devastating then the IRL counterparts. Buggy having a tiny compressed explosive able to do damage to a whole street of houses proves that. But that alone doesn't explain it.
4) That's a good rationalization of it, but I don't think that's been confirmed. I'd accept that as an explanation though because it is consistent with the verse.
5) No, I'm not suggesting any downgrades yet. I'm currently trying to find a more suitable compromise that would be both accurate and acceptable on the site. Once I've gathered a sufficient amount of evidence, then I'll be suggesting possible reivisons.
And One Piece guns for the most part haven't been specifically highlighted as being more powerful except in certain cases such as Pudding's candy-jacketed bullets which could pierce the Vinsmokes, or Capone's pistol which somehow causes an explosion when he shoots it, or if somebody uses Haki on a bullet (though strangely nobody has been noted to do that yet).
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I smell WWW logic.
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@Damage - So just ignore the other fiction material that does this and go straight for One Piece, which constantly brings up special weapons and haki imbued arrows/bullets? mhmm.
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Would you rather I try to tackle all of fiction at once? I kinda prefer to focus on one thing at a time...
And Knight, do you actually have anything to add?
And Knight, do you actually have anything to add?
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Other than sensing blatant downplay and faulty logic? No.
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Well, if you mean that I disagree certain characters are country-level and relativistic then, yes, I am 'downplaying'.Knightofannihilation666 said:
People are allowed to be a bit skeptical, right?
