One of the Smallest High 4-Cs VS One of the Largest High 4-Cs (Thumbelina VS Helios) 1 Vote Until Grace

[XitSign]

You ever look at two characters and say: "Wow, they're in the same tier?"

Well...This is a particularly hilarious example of that. Time for a girl who's small enough to sit in a flower to fight a woman with a sun for a head.

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Thumbelina VS Helios, Thumbelina is in her Four Leaf Clover Princess key and Helios is in her Helios - The Primordial Sun Key (Resurrection loop means this fight goes nowhere I think?), Speed is Equalized, and the fight takes place in the Endless Corridors

Only a Few Centimeters Tall: 8

Millions of Kilometers Tall: 0

A Regular Sized Woman: 0

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[Schnee_One]

The small one looks like she has a better chance as she’s a bit more versatile (Mainly her having Time Stop and sleep manipulation)

How in character is that and what is the difference in AP?

 

[XitSign]

Oh no, she doesn't have Sleep manip and Time Stop, she negates it. The other abilities are fair game.

Would you believe it's only a 1.5x in Helios's favor?

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[Blahblah9755]

How does Thumbelina’s durability negation work? And how is her AoE?

 

[XitSign]

It's one of her energy attacks, but instead just reduces the target's HP by a certain amount rather than normal damage. In game it's a percentage or set number, in story-mode it was explained more vaugely as 'bypasses defense'

Her AoE's size isn't clear, but at least bigger, and can multi-target. She can trigger it with the same energy blasts that are interstellar so they're both absolutely in range of each other, hilariously.

 

[Blahblah9755]

How big are the biggest opponents she fights then? Even if she has the range, without enough AoE you can’t do too much to such a large opponent.

 

[XitSign]

The largest foe has been large enough to eat Jupiter and other planets in a single gulp (total size still being worked on), and the energy blasts have been able to make new stars (which is probably area of effect), though that part is scaling to Idia who actually did it, who's Thumbelina's equal in this key.

So likely capable of a big enough energy blast to be noteable.

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[XitSign]

Bumpin

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest.

 

[Udlmaster]

I'm going with Helios, given that even if the Girl does manage to kill them, they actually just resurrect anyway.

 

[XitSign]

The fight is using base form Helios for that exact reason. Base doesn't have self-res.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Okay, being able to use AoE abilities on a being the can eat Jupiter would probably put her AoE attacks at a large enough size to deal significant damage.
Though I also just realized the Helios’ transformation is into her second key (and into her third key for the second key), so Thumbelina has to be able to kill her before she chooses to transform.

 

[XitSign]

Is her transformation possible on her own? I know in game it's a tribute summon, and I think in anime it was triggered by a duelist, I don't remember any other contexts with Helios.

If so, Thumbelina's Power Null only affects passive abilities, not sure the transformation here would count so it probably wouldn't stop Helios from being able to trigger it.

On the other hand, her Durability Negation attack, 'Squall', is her second move in-character. She always starts the battle by giving herself Damage Reduction and then fires off the dura negation, so she does use one of her most potent attacks early.

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[Udlmaster]

The fight is using base form Helios for that exact reason. Base doesn't have self-res.

True, I forgot it's Duo that gains the Resurrection, not Primordial Sun. Lol and I use this card in my Banish deck

 

[Imaginym]

Because what they'll do in-character tends to be relevant, I feel it may be worthwhile to post Thumbelina's Notable Attacks/Techniques section so that it is also viewable in this thread. (A shame she lacks a Standard Tactics Section.)

• Wood Orbs: Thumbelina can tap into Wood Orbs in the atmosphere to unleash Earth, Plant, and Air energy attacks
• Mass Attack: An attack that can hit multiple targets at once, triggered by linking 5 or more Orbs of the same color
• Heal Orbs: All monsters in Puzzle and Dragons can tap into Heal Orbs in the atmosphere to heal themselves or to create forcefields

• Protection Magic - Wood: Changes Fire Orbs into Heart Orbs and removes immobilization effects for all allies

• Gentle Care: Passively boosts all Attacker and Healer Type allies' HP and Recovery stat by 1.5x
• Enhanced Wood Orbs: 20% chance for Wood Orbs nearby to be enhanced, doing 5% more damage when used
• Resistance-Skill Bind: 20% chance for all allies to resist their abilities being negated
• Two-Pronged Attack[2]: If exactly 4 Orbs of the same element are used at once, the attack is boosted by 2.25x and can hit two targets at once
• Resistance-Bind[2]: Completely resists binding and immobilization effects
• Skill Boost: Decreases the amount of time active abilities need to charge
• Recover Bind: Using a row of Heal Orbs removes binding and immobilization effects on all allies
• Lucky Guard: Reduces all incoming damage by 90% for a limited time
• Squall: Reduces opponent's HP by 99%, bypassing durability
• Star Stream: Temporarily negates all foes' passive abilities
• Poke: A rapid attack that strikes 3 times, doing 1.1x damage per hit
• Swallow Dive: A rapid attack that strikes 6 times, doing 3x damage per hit

Helios also sort of has a Notable Attacks/Techniques section....

Weaknesses: None notable

• Solar Singer: Helios Duo Megistus fires an arc of flames at the opponent.
• Phoenix Flare: Helios Trice Megistus fires three streams of flame that converge into a phoenix at the opponent.

....It's just that they seem to have forgotten to place the field denoting it as such. Or at least, I would like to assume those aren't meant as her weaknesses.

Once again, a lack of a Standard Tactics section makes this more difficult.

It's unclear how easily Helios can track Thumbelina, given the size difference. Do we know how she can detect her, SBA aside?
Is it in-character for Thumbelina to dodge?

 

[XitSign]

You know...It's probably going to be a lot of work going back through it, but we probably should add ST for the PAD crew. Their AI does have specific quirks that they will always do certain things, so we kinda dropped the ball there.

Thumbelina's Lucky Guard is a 'preemptive', it triggers the moment combat starts, so its her first move. Squall comes next as her first 'choice' in the fight, but if things sour her AI will start to do different things, so it becomes a lot more varied from that point on. So Damage Reduction first, Durability Negation Attack second, and then it becomes a bit context sensitive/random what she'll do from that point on.

As for tracking her...I actually hadn't considered that, SBA at least lets her know which direction she is, but after that I have no idea what Helios' sight is like. I assume she has vision good enough for combat with human-sized characters considering she has to fight YuGiOh monsters who are often humanoids, so is being only cm's tall that much smaller in perspective?

As for dodging, not really. She's capable, and PAD characters sometimes attempt dodging incoming attacks, but Thumbelina doesn't get enough screen time where we see her attempting true keepaway.

 

[Imaginym]

You know...It's probably going to be a lot of work going back through it, but we probably should add ST for the PAD crew. Their AI does have specific quirks that they will always do certain things, so we kinda dropped the ball there.

Lol, sorry to kinda put a lot on your plate. Good luck if you do attempt it!

Thumbelina's Lucky Guard is a 'preemptive', it triggers the moment combat starts, so its her first move. Squall comes next as her first 'choice' in the fight, but if things sour her AI will start to do different things, so it becomes a lot more varied from that point on. So Damage Reduction first, Durability Negation Attack second, and then it becomes a bit context sensitive/random what she'll do from that point on.

As for tracking her...I actually hadn't considered that, SBA at least lets her know which direction she is, but after that I have no idea what Helios' sight is like. I assume she has vision good enough for combat with human-sized characters considering she has to fight YuGiOh monsters who are often humanoids, so is being only cm's tall that much smaller in perspective?

Your average human is around 160 to 180 cm tall, IIRC. If Thumbelina is say, 5 cm tall (IDK her exact height.), then she's like, 32 times smaller than a typical human.
& that's just height. Her visibility is further lessened by that she is not only less tall, but has less depth & width than a typical human as well.

As for dodging, not really. She's capable, and PAD characters sometimes attempt dodging incoming attacks, but Thumbelina doesn't get enough screen time where we see her attempting true keepaway.

....But then again, if it's reasonable to assume Thumbelina ain't gonna move to dodge Helios's attacks, perhaps it doesn't matter that Thumbelina is tens of times smaller than Helios's typical opponents.

Helios - The Primordial Sun

In episode 46, Amnael uses this card during his Duel against Jaden Yuki. He Special Summons this card via the effect of "Macro Cosmos". Since eleven monsters are banished, this card's effect made its ATK and DEF become 1100. Before Jaden could try and attack this card with "Elemental HERO...

yugioh.fandom.com

Helios has 1 anime appearance (But IIRC, that's a hologram & let's please not get into that debate because this is probably Card Game based anyway.), so I don't think there's any evidence that Helios dodges in character, either.

So if neither dodges....
This turns into a damage race where Helios has a 1.5x AP/Durability advantage? How do they match up in Stamina?

 

[XitSign]

Lol, sorry to kinda put a lot on your plate. Good luck if you do attempt it!

It's okay, the Verse has a TON of work to get done anyways...what's 1 more project? Dying inside

Your average human is around 160 to 180 cm tall, IIRC. If Thumbelina is say, 5 cm tall (IDK her exact height.), then she's like, 32 times smaller than a typical human.
& that's just height. Her visibility is further lessened by that she is not only less tall, but has less depth & width than a typical human as well.

Yeah we're not 100% on Thumbalina's height either, we're not for a lot of PAD characters honestly, but the fact she can ride on a bird and sit inside a flower...lets go with 5 cm, that's fair. But in the grand scheme of things Helios is...well...in the millions of Kilometers. The perspective between these two is ABSURD, and 100% the point. She might be 32 times smaller than a human, but from Helios' perspective is that really all that much?

....But then again, if it's reasonable to assume Thumbelina ain't gonna move to dodge Helios's attacks, perhaps it doesn't matter that Thumbelina is tens of times smaller than Helios's typical opponents.

Helios - The Primordial Sun

In episode 46, Amnael uses this card during his Duel against Jaden Yuki. He Special Summons this card via the effect of "Macro Cosmos". Since eleven monsters are banished, this card's effect made its ATK and DEF become 1100. Before Jaden could try and attack this card with "Elemental HERO...

yugioh.fandom.com

Helios has 1 anime appearance (But IIRC, that's a hologram & let's please not get into that debate because this is probably Card Game based anyway.), so I don't think there's any evidence that Helios dodges in character, either.

She may make an amount of an attempt, especially once she realizes she's taking bonus damage (we'll get back to that), but the real question is AOE. Due to Helios' size Thumbelina's likely going to struggle to even make an attempt to dodge if she tries it.

Oh really it's only 1 episode? I do remember it, and Helios did float there ominously a lot, but that's at least partly due to the nature of a duel. Guess we gotta roll with that assumption though since she has such limited screen time.

So if neither dodges....
This turns into a damage race where Helios has a 1.5x AP/Durability advantage? How do they match up in Stamina?

Helios has a 1.5x advantage, doubled due to using 'Fire' Element attacks against Thumbelina which means she's actually taking 3x with each hit. Though in Thumbelina's corner, Squall does Dura-Neg to help her catch up damage wise, and she can use Damage Boosting to temporarily boost herself.

Thumbelina's for sure got stamina to keep up with being grouped up on by multiple opponents and fighting multiple 'floors' of opponents back to back who tend to be her ballpark, so she's at least got decent Stamina, but nothing concrete and crazy. She can also help offset how badly she'll be taking damage with her Damage Reduction, Healing, and Forcefields to keep her in there longer.

Helios' stamina is also just a generic 'Very High', and I'm guessing because similarly she's capable of fighting multiple opponents at once when it comes to a Duel Monsters fight.

So very generic 'they can fight a while' feats. Helios has the AP advantage and elemental advantage (also lifting strength but Helios doesn't seem to bother even moving much in a fight), while Thumbelina has defensive abilities to reduce damage taken and restore herself.

 

[Imaginym]

It's okay, the Verse has a TON of work to get done anyways...what's 1 more project? Dying inside

Yeah we're not 100% on Thumbalina's height either, we're not for a lot of PAD characters honestly, but the fact she can ride on a bird and sit inside a flower...lets go with 5 cm, that's fair. But in the grand scheme of things Helios is...well...in the millions of Kilometers. The perspective between these two is ABSURD, and 100% the point. She might be 32 times smaller than a human, but from Helios' perspective is that really all that much?

According to this calc, Helios's total height is 16,557,660.4428 km. That, divided by 5 cm = 331,153,208,856. So yes, absurd size difference.
Helios is roughly hundreds of billions times bigger.

She may make an amount of an attempt, especially once she realizes she's taking bonus damage (we'll get back to that), but the real question is AOE. Due to Helios' size Thumbelina's likely going to struggle to even make an attempt to dodge if she tries it.

Oh really it's only 1 episode? I do remember it, and Helios did float there ominously a lot, but that's at least partly due to the nature of a duel. Guess we gotta roll with that assumption though since she has such limited screen time.

May be worth checking the episode, just to be sure. I wonder if it's on Yugioh.com/Crunchyroll?

Helios has a 1.5x advantage, doubled due to using 'Fire' Element attacks against Thumbelina which means she's actually taking 3x with each hit. Though in Thumbelina's corner, Squall does Dura-Neg to help her catch up damage wise, and she can use Damage Boosting to temporarily boost herself.

Any idea of the multiplier on damage boosting?

Thumbelina's for sure got stamina to keep up with being grouped up on by multiple opponents and fighting multiple 'floors' of opponents back to back who tend to be her ballpark, so she's at least got decent Stamina, but nothing concrete and crazy. She can also help offset how badly she'll be taking damage with her Damage Reduction, Healing, and Forcefields to keep her in there longer.

Reducing damage by how much?

Helios' stamina is also just a generic 'Very High', and I'm guessing because similarly she's capable of fighting multiple opponents at once when it comes to a Duel Monsters fight.

I mean, you'd think that, but.... AFAIK, Helios & its cards aren't depicted on any cards outside of its own forms. In terms of TCG Gameplay, rules say a singular attack target is chosen for a monster to attack, then damage calculation, & typically, a monster with ATK higher than the position-relevant value (ATK or DEF) of the monster being attacked, causes the monster that was attacked to be destroyed.
& only Helios's final form has multiple attacks, in terms of gameplay mechanics.

So it isn't clear if Helios has any experience fighting multiple foes at once, & by gameplay, monsters are either one-shot, mutually destroyed, or neither is destroyed (Defense Position DEF higher than Attacker's ATK.) in battle.

Has Helios fought multiple monsters at once?

So very generic 'they can fight a while' feats. Helios has the AP advantage and elemental advantage (also lifting strength but Helios doesn't seem to bother even moving much in a fight), while Thumbelina has defensive abilities to reduce damage taken and restore herself.

It seems like this match is a pure damage race, but without a good idea of the numbers, I'm not sure who to vote. (Also, I just realized Helios's Notable Attacks/Techniques section is irrelevant for her base form, lol.)

 

[XitSign]

According to this calc, Helios's total height is 16,557,660.4428 km. That, divided by 5 cm = 331,153,208,856. So yes, absurd size difference.
Helios is roughly hundreds of billions times bigger.

Yeah so I'm willing to bet the extra 32x is not making a huge differance. If Helios can target a humanoid monster, it can probably see Thumbelina.

May be worth checking the episode, just to be sure. I wonder if it's on Yugioh.com/Crunchyroll?

Probably safe, it's GX, they don't care about GX getting illegally streamed so it should be easy to find.

Any idea of the multiplier on damage boosting?

So the Damage Boost is using the Orbs. Using 3 Orbs triggers a generic energy blast, every additional Orb linked to the first 3 increases the power by +.25x

Also for every set of unique chains of Orbs that are used at the same time (like making two sets of 3), the character gets a Combo, which is another +.25x

And I know you're thinking, "Wow, that's a game mechanic" and we thought so too but it turns out PAD had (more than one) Anime where they outright use this system and explain how it works so...Yeah.

Reducing damage by how much?

90%, but it is temporary and will wear off after a while

I mean, you'd think that, but.... AFAIK, Helios & its cards aren't depicted on any cards outside of its own forms. In terms of TCG Gameplay, rules say a singular attack target is chosen for a monster to attack, then damage calculation, & typically, a monster with ATK higher than the position-relevant value (ATK or DEF) of the monster being attacked, causes the monster that was attacked to be destroyed.
& only Helios's final form has multiple attacks, in terms of gameplay mechanics.

So it isn't clear if Helios has any experience fighting multiple foes at once, & by gameplay, monsters are either one-shot, mutually destroyed, or neither is destroyed (Defense Position DEF higher than Attacker's ATK.) in battle.

Yeah but isn't Duel Monsters supposed to be a simplified representation of how things actually work in the Monster/Spirit Realm thing? Meaning that the monsters have much longer, more extended fights there compared to the simple one-hit fights the 'game' shows us? I think at the very least being a monster who exists in the same world they do, it should at least baseline scale to the capacity to have extended fights like the others.

Has Helios fought multiple monsters at once?

Not on screen, I'm almost certain.

It seems like this match is a pure damage race, but without a good idea of the numbers, I'm not sure who to vote. (Also, I just realized Helios's Notable Attacks/Techniques section is irrelevant for her base form, lol.)

Thumbelina has:

-AP disadvantage of 1.5x

-Durability disadvantage of 3x

-Temporary Damage Reduction of 90%

-Healing and Forcefields for offsetting damage

-Damage Boost that is heavily variable in nature (Can be as low as 1x, but indeterminately larger)

-A Durability Negation attack

Helios has:

-AP Advantage of 3x

-Durability Advantage of 1.5x


At least those are the best numbers I think can be pulled together from what we know. And factors related to the numbers.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah but isn't Duel Monsters supposed to be a simplified representation of how things actually work in the Monster/Spirit Realm thing? Meaning that the monsters have much longer, more extended fights there compared to the simple one-hit fights the 'game' shows us? I think at the very least being a monster who exists in the same world they do, it should at least baseline scale to the capacity to have extended fights like the others.

Not sure how it is for the TCG profiles, but okay.

Thumbelina has:

-AP disadvantage of 1.5x

-Durability disadvantage of 3x

-Temporary Damage Reduction of 90%

Is this repeatable?

-Healing and Forcefields for offsetting damage

-Damage Boost that is heavily variable in nature (Can be as low as 1x, but indeterminately larger)

-A Durability Negation attack

Helios has:

-AP Advantage of 3x

-Durability Advantage of 1.5x


At least those are the best numbers I think can be pulled together from what we know. And factors related to the numbers.

Anyway, thank you for your extensive efforts in this analysis.

 

[XitSign]

Not sure how it is for the TCG profiles, but okay.

To be honest, I am just a casual fan, and not a supporter for the VS angle...It just sounds reasonable to me from what I remember of how the lore works, but it may or may not be what we accept.

Is this repeatable?

Not made totally clear for the Damage Reduction. Either no, or Thumbelina suffers from really bad PIS and forgets to reset it once it wears off.

All of her other abilities have no limit to use, with the exception of her Damage Boost, Healing, and Forcefields that require Orbs, but Helios has nothing to stop the Orbs so she won't be restricted on resources.

Anyway, thank you for your extensive efforts in this analysis.

You're welcome, doing my best to answer anything and everything...The concept of a fight between a pair of women who are billions of times different in size yet still fair AP-wise was too amusing to pass up and I'd like it done correctly.

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[XitSign]

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[XitSign]

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[XitSign]

I keep forgetting to bump.

So bump.

 

[XitSign]

Bump, need to stop forgetting

 

[XitSign]

Another bumppin

 

[XitSign]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

That durability negation is pretty appealing. However that said, it doesn't kill (Reduces 99% of the opponent's health). Can her regular uncharged attacks possibly take down Helios' last 1% health? (Remember, AP disadvantage) Poke and Swallow Dive seem like great candidates

 

[XitSign]

The disadvantage is only about a 1.5x, so probably yes. Thumbelina's not that far behind in AP.

Helios only has the 3x AP advantage because of Thumbelina having a specific weakness to fire elements, Helios' durability is still pretty close to Thumbelina's AP.